Towing Advice - Why?

[Ruby]

Please, if you ever see us out with our camper and we are doing something wrong or in an unsafe way, let us know. We are fairly new to pulling a camper. Over 40 years tent camping and in 2017 bought our first camper.
Bought a new to us TV last fall and had to adjust the hitch. I'm always nervous about the 30 extra feet behind us anyway, but that REALLY made me anxious.
I've learned a lot from this group, so thank you all for sharing your wisdom with this newbie!

[flybouy]

People are people and people do and say what they will. The bearer of bad news typically gets the brunt of the recipient's anger. Some will challenge the recommendations, some will "go down shooting" to defend their decisions. Some folks will mistakenly think that we are just "on a power trip" or are "weight snobs" that think you need a 1 ton dually to tow a pop-up. Nothing could be further from the truth. Like I said, some folks will "shoot the messenger" and I understand the confusion when they have placed trust in the salesman and realize they have been mislead. That's OK with me, as long as the person becomes aware and at least investigates the numbers. I am content to pass along the limited knowledge that I possess.

I, along with others on this forum, have been in similar situations and found out the hard and expensive way what towing overloaded can lead to. The only motive is to educate and inform in an attempt to save them from making the mistakes we have made along the same journey.

It's always uplifting when someone acknowledges this and let's us know. Thanks

[dutchmensport]

I see situations like this all the time. For some reason, being a former travel trailer owner and a bit OCD when it comes to my family's safety, I did not cheap out on weight distribution hitches and towing equipment. And I had the biggest baddest heaviest truck towing all my trailers money could and could not afford at the time.

So, it's my natural instinct to look at trailers when on the highways, when passing or being passed, and notice how that are hitched, what equipment they are using, or better what equipment are they lacking. It makes me just want to run them over, get them to stop and shake the stuffings out of them. But, that's only my imagination, not reality. So I have to just let them go. I breathe a little prayer that God will keep everyone safe around them, and that someday their eyes will be opened to the danger they are in and the danger they are putting others in.

I was in a public service job for over 25 years, literally attempting to "save the world" form itself. And the message presented just didn't soak in. The bottom line is, some people are just plane stubborn and feel they are right at any cost. And no matter what you do, you can't change them. So, I finally woke up and realized I was in the wrong profession and moved into Information Technology. i learned that if computers don't like your input, they just spit back at you immediately ... Abort, Retry, Fail! Life has been much easier now.

So, when it comes to RV ownership, my sounding board has been the public forum web sites. I can spit out my message and hope somewhere along the line it helps someone. But, to confront a total red-neck, Mr. Moron, A-hole and suggest to him his tow vehicle is under par? Forget it! Ain't gonna happen! My presence is not wanted. I know when I'm not wanted. I'll move on and breathe a prayer for him! People who don't want to change, can't be changed, and will not change.

As Billy Currington's song lyrics state so absolutely true:

God is great, beer is good
And people are crazy

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by dutchmensport

I see situations like this all the time. For some reason, being a former travel trailer owner and a bit OCD when it comes to my family's safety, I did not cheap out on weight distribution hitches and towing equipment. And I had the biggest baddest heaviest truck towing all my trailers money could and could not afford at the time.

So, it's my natural instinct to look at trailers when on the highways, when passing or being passed, and notice how that are hitched, what equipment they are using, or better what equipment are they lacking. It makes me just want to run them over, get them to stop and shake the stuffings out of them. But, that's only my imagination, not reality. So I have to just let them go. I breathe a little prayer that God will keep everyone safe around them, and that someday their eyes will be opened to the danger they are in and the danger they are putting others in.

I was in a public service job for over 25 years, literally attempting to "save the world" form itself. And the message presented just didn't soak in. The bottom line is, some people are just plane stubborn and feel they are right at any cost. And no matter what you do, you can't change them. So, I finally woke up and realized I was in the wrong profession and moved into Information Technology. i learned that if computers don't like your input, they just spit back at you immediately ... Abort, Retry, Fail! Life has been much easier now.

So, when it comes to RV ownership, my sounding board has been the public forum web sites. I can spit out my message and hope somewhere along the line it helps someone. But, to confront a total red-neck, Mr. Moron, A-hole and suggest to him his tow vehicle is under par? Forget it! Ain't gonna happen! My presence is not wanted. I know when I'm not wanted. I'll move on and breathe a prayer for him! People who don't want to change, can't be changed, and will not change.

As Billy Currington's song lyrics state so absolutely true:

God is great, beer is good
And people are crazy

David I think you are right. I think the highlighted above would be a good way to get a nice confrontational situation going. In the situation I witnessed I had the opportunity to go over and visit, possibly assist the neighbor as he tried to figure out how to hitch up or pull the trailer....with his hands, to his hitch ball. In that situation I would help (and have) and either ask questions to plant the seed or make little observations that might help - all done very diplomatically, politely and completely non pushy. I've had some refuse any help and I've had others ask a thousand questions and were truly grateful.

You just don't know - like the fellow (probably 70+) pulling in next to me this evening. First trip in new trailer; had his new "fiance" with him. Watched him try to get the trailer in 3 times then the slide was still about 1" from the ped; tried to level....never got it side to side; then laid out his power, sewer, TV etc. After about 30 minutes, took 10+ just to get the sewer cap off the park facility dump (no tool), I went to visit with him. Offered help, tools or anything he needed. He was OK, would let me know if he needed anything. He kept encountering issues (over an hour) and I offered 3 times as he seemed to hit a roadblock - he was OK and would get it. DW said she figured it was "fiance"....first trip and hookup....don't look so good for someone help you get it set up; didn't think about that.

[travelin texans]

A few years ago we were sitting out enjoying an adult beverage when an older couple in a new 5th wheel pulled in next to us, after a few minutes we noticed the woman standing at the front of our rv, we greeted her & ask if she needed help she says "no but I think he does", I went over to find him with the power cord in 1 hand & the water hose in the other, I said "you need help" he says "I don't know what to do with this sh##", I asked "did the dealer not explain this to you" he says "yes but I didn't know what the hell he was talking about most of the time", got them hooked up & went back to enjoying my beverage.
The next morning while out drinking my coffee this guy's peeking around the corner & says "hey chief does this damn park not have any hot water?" I say " "no but you should" his response was "no just got my a## chewed cause she had a cold shower", the dealer still had the water heater bypassed & now the element is toast, so I say "turn it to gas" he looked at me like I've got 3 heads & says "WTF are you talking about", I got him going.
For the next 3 weeks the DW & I got this couple pretty well initiated into the rv lifestyle & they were thrilled.
The unfortunate part was the dealer, somewhere in southern California, was of NO help to these folks!! Sold them a 32-35' 5th wheel & hooked it up to a Toyota Tundra while bragging to this couple what a great tow vehicle they had, according to this couples story about their sales experience.

[RCW]

I completely agree that when we become aware of someone doing something that may cause them or someone else harm, there is a responsibility to make sure they understand what they are doing. But I have seen several times on this and other forums where a new person comes on here and asked a question that doesn't really have anything to do with towing or weight issues and the next thing you know the post turns into a big discussion about whether their tow vehicle is big enough. Its like everyone is ganging up on the OP. Sometimes the OP disappears, never to be heard from again. And my bet is that they are still using the same rig. It's all in the approach and sometimes the message doesn't get through if the approach is wrong!

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by RCW

I completely agree that when we become aware of someone doing something that may cause them or someone else harm, there is a responsibility to make sure they understand what they are doing. But I have seen several times on this and other forums where a new person comes on here and asked a question that doesn't really have anything to do with towing or weight issues and the next thing you know the post turns into a big discussion about whether their tow vehicle is big enough. Its like everyone is ganging up on the OP. Sometimes the OP disappears, never to be heard from again. And my bet is that they are still using the same rig. It's all in the approach and sometimes the message doesn't get through if the approach is wrong!

So, are you suggesting that it's "better" to explain to them how to get OTA television stations and just "ignore the fact that they're towing way too much trailer with their way too small vehicle" ???? Wouldn't that get them on the highway while ignoring the obvious, hoping they don't kill themselves or someone else???

When is the right time to state the obvious to a "noobie" who is in "way over their head" ?????

I enjoyed "playing along with my kids, telling them there's a Santa"..... Are you suggesting that doing that with adults who have been told "your truck will tow anything on the lot" ???

When is the right time to treat "noobies that are in over their head" that Santa isn't real ???

What "approach" are you suggesting would be better (for adults, not wishful thinkers) ?????

[RCW]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

So, are you suggesting that it's "better" to explain to them how to get OTA television stations and just "ignore the fact that they're towing way too much trailer with their way too small vehicle" ???? Wouldn't that get them on the highway while ignoring the obvious, hoping they don't kill themselves or someone else???

When is the right time to state the obvious to a "noobie" who is in "way over their head" ?????

I enjoyed "playing along with my kids, telling them there's a Santa"..... Are you suggesting that doing that with adults who have been told "your truck will tow anything on the lot" ???

When is the right time to treat "noobies that are in over their head" that Santa isn't real ???

What "approach" are you suggesting would be better (for adults, not wishful thinkers) ?????

I am suggesting that once someone says something about it that the rest back off a little. If the OP pursues it, then it could be addressed further.

Nothing is being accomplished by driving them away because 10 different people are piling on. And half the time they can't agree!

I do not question anyone's motives on here. But try looking at some of these posts from a new person perspective. They ask a simple question and it seems that everyone is ganging up on them!

By the way, the tone of your response is an example of what I'm talking about!
I'm a big boy and I can handle it, but really?????

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by RCW

I am suggesting that once someone says something about it that the rest back off a little. If the OP pursues it, then it could be addressed further.

Nothing is being accomplished by driving them away because 10 different people are piling on. And half the time they can't agree!

I do not question anyone's motives on here. But try looking at some of these posts from a new person perspective. They ask a simple question and it seems that everyone is ganging up on them!

By the way, the tone of your response is an example of what I'm talking about!
I'm a big boy and I can handle it, but really?????

Definition of FORUM: a place, meeting, or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.

Do you have any suggestions on "HOW" to limit comments made by members without resorting to censorship?

How would you suggest members that are located throughout the world "coordinate their responses" to assure no thread has more than 10 comments "piling on"..?????

It likely sounds like I'm being curt or "that you perceive my tone" inappropriately. What you're suggesting is "noble" but how can it be "practically implemented" on an internet forum without censorship ???

[markcee]

Originally Posted by RCW

I am suggesting that once someone says something about it that the rest back off a little. If the OP pursues it, then it could be addressed further.

Nothing is being accomplished by driving them away because 10 different people are piling on. And half the time they can't agree!

I do not question anyone's motives on here. But try looking at some of these posts from a new person perspective. They ask a simple question and it seems that everyone is ganging up on them!

By the way, the tone of your response is an example of what I'm talking about!
I'm a big boy and I can handle it, but really?????

I was on the receiving end of comments from the 'weight police' when I first joined. I was initially in denial as I thought my F150 'max tow' would make short work of towing my 9500 lbs GVWR trailer. I grumbled a bit, tried to counter argue etc., but in the end I realized I was dead wrong in thinking that I had enough truck for the job.....I was close, providing we didn't eat breakfast before we left and only kept a 1/4 tank of gas in the truck, but it still wasn't enough. IMHO, I think those that don't respond when they get fact checked on their RV and TV primarily fall into the category of denial. I don't believe they are driven away because posters are 'ganging up on them'. Is the info presented sometimes a bit harsh? Sure, but most end up seeing the light and are glad for the help.

I've said it before and I'll say it again...I am very thankful for those that educated me and have no issue with how they presented their case. Whenever possible on this, and other forums, I also pass on the knowledge I've gained when I read about a situation I know is not quite (or a lot) right. Like with me, almost all of these issues are a result of relying on info provided by the RV, the truck (or both) salesmen. Where else is someone going to get the real scoop?

Now, if I could just figure out how to get OTA television stations.....lol

[RCW]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

Definition of FORUM: a place, meeting, or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.

Do you have any suggestions on "HOW" to limit comments made by members without resorting to censorship?

How would you suggest members that are located throughout the world "coordinate their responses" to assure no thread has more than 10 comments "piling on"..?????

It likely sounds like I'm being curt or "that you perceive my tone" inappropriately. What you're suggesting is "noble" but how can it be "practically implemented" on an internet forum without censorship ???

It makes more since to gain ones respect by answering the original question. Then maybe a mod could PM the noob and explain the concern. If you can take the time publicly you should be able to do it in private.

Let me ask this: If you were new at this and you went and bought a trailer, you have probably built some kind of relationship with the sales person. They made you feel good about what you are doing, you are happy! Then you find a forum that talks about the very camper you own, again you are happy. But your are a little intimidated because you really don't know much about it. You ask a question about Key TV (sorry I had to) and get 6 responses stating that you need a new tow vehicle from people who you don't know and some aren't exactly nice about it. Who are you going to believe? What are the chances that you are going to ask another question?

Actually you already "censor" things as you should! I have seen the mods warn people about some of their posts why is this situation different?

I learned while coaching youth sports if a player doesn't do what your asking them to do on the field or court, you need to change the way you are delivering the message.

Sorry if I misunderstood your tone before.

[travelin texans]

I can't tell when you or anyone else on here is typing a message whether it be about Key Tv or truck/rv weights so it's not unlikely that the OP can/will several posts on either subject back to back.
As for them leaving due being ganged up on, 1st I don't think anyone is ganging up in anyone else & if the subject of the safety of themselves & their family upsets them then I'm sorry, they'll leave & do as they please. But when they leave I know, & the other weight police, that they have been correctly informed where to find the pertinent numbers & how to calculate them, what they do with that information when they leave is up to them.
And until I'm told to stop,every time a newbie post his new 40' toyhauler towing with his super duper all powerful F150 I will be posting about it & hope everyone of the weight police gang up & do likewise.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by RCW

It makes more since to gain ones respect by answering the original question. Then maybe a mod could PM the noob and explain the concern. If you can take the time publicly you should be able to do it in private.

Let me ask this: If you were new at this and you went and bought a trailer, you have probably built some kind of relationship with the sales person. They made you feel good about what you are doing, you are happy! Then you find a forum that talks about the very camper you own, again you are happy. But your are a little intimidated because you really don't know much about it. You ask a question about Key TV (sorry I had to) and get 6 responses stating that you need a new tow vehicle from people who you don't know and some aren't exactly nice about it. Who are you going to believe? What are the chances that you are going to ask another question?

Actually you already "censor" things as you should! I have seen the mods warn people about some of their posts why is this situation different?

I learned while coaching youth sports if a player doesn't do what your asking them to do on the field or court, you need to change the way you are delivering the message.

Sorry if I misunderstood your tone before.

It would be nice if one individual knew the answers to every question that could ever be asked....but they don't. Therefore questions/situations are left open for those with more knowledge of whatever the subject is to then post their thoughts, solutions etc.

I'm an older guy. I came from a time and place when if you could make "it" move with what you had...if you could just get the coupler to fit over the ball, you were good to go. No sales folks; just had to get it done with whatever you had. That works "sort of" but also can get you killed...and almost did. Get a little more careful but the main thing was "can I make it go". Fast forward to today -

Every RV/truck salesperson's only goal is to sell you something that makes you think your combo "can go"...whether it can or not; your welfare is not in the equation. So, now we have lots and lots of folks buying RVs never meant for their TV and vice versa. They've been "told" they're good to go. Been shown "max tow" numbers till their blue in the face, unloaded weights infinitum; they "know" they're "good" when they are far from it. The question is how do you open that door once the purchases have been made without offending someone? Not easy.

Coming from the background I did, working on farms, county construction etc. when young, I "knew" about towing stuff. As I grew up I got bigger, nicer trucks and bigger, nicer toys. I knew how to tow; I "knew" how to control things. Once the topic of "weights" came up I "knew" I knew better. Hey, I've done this forever. Well, that doesn't really mean anything.

Bought a new 69 Chevy C10 - SUPER truck, 4 speed, 350..."beast". Bought a "shop" made (read custom) cabover camper. Really nice but more importantly, really heavy. The guy that built it said "no problem" on the truck. Yeah. Bought it and the truck just squatted. Added springs, heavy shocks etc. Until the day I sold both of them I was terrified of entering a curve at any speed because that truck would have absolutely flipped. Lesson taught; not learned. Had a Ford Ranger pulling a 16' flatbed and decided to cut some firewood and load it on the trailer....and come down a hairy mountain road. Well, when sitting in the dark with your headlights pointing up into the trees, 5' from a drop off of several hundred feet (that was a dying moment), seat covers completely sucked up where my sphincter muscle was, after losing control of steering another lesson taught - but not learned. I could go on but to say I was (and am) hard headed would be an understatement.

When I joined this forum I had bought a new Keystone and had a new truck. I had pulled for a long time but never really got into weights. "I got it" right? That's not really so. I posted my stuff, argued because I've done this a long time - never thought anyone wanted to force me to buy a dually; but they DID have a great concern for me and my combo....and I KNEW I was towing overweight....but I got it. Let me tell you this; you can make it "go", you can think it's "good", you can ignore numbers and think all is well.....until you are coming across Mobile Bay on the bridge and a nut guy decides to slam on his brakes for no reason. I found, with my gut in my mouth, that my 1/2 ton combo could do a lot of things, even overloaded, but it was not going to pull that trailer and truck down in time to save me and my wife. We would have went over that railing (stopped about a foot off the rear bumper of the car in front of me and the concrete barrier over the edge of the bridge) except for divine intervention. That would have happened with my wife never knowing I was overweight, never thinking there was a problem......NEVER thinking I would put her in that position. Got home - new truck and it WILL NEVER happen again.

So many good folks on here have similar experiences and histories. So many others are like me and "know", don't want to post numbers and they've "got it"...when they don't. The factors in the balance of discussing those things are the safety and welfare of not only the RV owner but those on the road with them...and yes, I've seen multiple RV accidents.

How then do you address an issue like that without seeming to stick your nose in where it doesn't belong? You just do. If someone is sitting on the side of the road and obviously need my help I don't wait to see if they "ask". If I saw someone being attacked in a parking lot I'm not going to say "they'll be OK" and go down the road.

I guess, in my mind, at the end of the line you do what you feel you have to do to help someone, maybe save someone, vs just saying "hey, it's their life, let them kill the family"....can't do it. If you saw a dad jack up a car with a bumper jack and have his kid crawl under there to do some work....knowing the jack can/will fall with the slightest malfunction; would you just ignore it and say it's not your business or would you push a bit? I've seen what happens when that jack falls.

[markcee]

Originally Posted by RCW

You ask a question about Key TV (sorry I had to) and get 6 responses stating that you need a new tow vehicle from people who you don't know and some aren't exactly nice about it. Who are you going to believe? What are the chances that you are going to ask another question?

I might be wrong, but I think this is a bit far fetched. Again, getting close to senior citizen age, so memory isn't what it once was, but I do not recall (in my admittedly short-ish time here) ever seeing a post such as that described above causing the ears of the weight police to perk up. I realize you are just making a point, but I don't see this as a valid example.

I have however seen many posts similar to: Hi there! new to RV'ing. Hubby and I just bought a 2020 Montana High Country 331RL. This is our very first RV and we can't wait to see the country!!!

The above is more like a post that would pique the interest of the WP!

[chuckster57]

Originally Posted by markcee

I might be wrong, but I think this is a bit far fetched. Again, getting close to senior citizen age, so memory isn't what it once was, but I do not recall (in my admittedly short-ish time hereof ) ever seeing a post such as that described above causing the ears of the weight police to perk up. I realize you are just making a point, but I don't see this as a valid example.

I have however seen many posts similar to: Hi there! new to RV'ing. Hubby and I just bought a 2020 Montana High Country 331RL. This is our very first RV and we can't wait to see the country!!!

The above is more like a post that would pique the interest of the WP!

Exactly!!! Having spent the last 9 years working as a tech at dealerships I can say with the utmost certainty that the vast majority of sales people and sales mgrs don’t care about diddly other than the gross profit. I was admonished more than once for telling a customer the sad “truth” when they walked up with a grin so big and asked “ I do have enough tow vehicle, right?”

When a new member’s first post is they got a new RV, their FIRST and don’t say what they are using to get it to the campground, yeah it should make anyone wonder. Is there a “gentle” way to ask? I don’t really think so.

Like Danny, I am not one to just sit back and let someone put themselves and others in danger if I can help it. We ALL have to share the roads and we ALL share in the responsibility to keep each other safe.

[RCW]

Just to be clear I never implied that nothing should be said. I only suggest that the message could be delivered in a better way.

I can see that the mods see it differently. And that's ok we can agree to disagree. But even Danny admitted that the current approach didn't work with him.

[markcee]

Originally Posted by sourdough

It would be nice if one individual knew the answers to every question that could ever be asked....but they don't. Therefore questions/situations are left open for those with more knowledge of whatever the subject is to then post their thoughts, solutions etc.

I'm an older guy. I came from a time and place when if you could make "it" move with what you had...if you could just get the coupler to fit over the ball, you were good to go. No sales folks; just had to get it done with whatever you had. That works "sort of" but also can get you killed...and almost did. Get a little more careful but the main thing was "can I make it go". Fast forward to today -

Every RV/truck salesperson's only goal is to sell you something that makes you think your combo "can go"...whether it can or not; your welfare is not in the equation. So, now we have lots and lots of folks buying RVs never meant for their TV and vice versa. They've been "told" they're good to go. Been shown "max tow" numbers till their blue in the face, unloaded weights infinitum; they "know" they're "good" when they are far from it. The question is how do you open that door once the purchases have been made without offending someone? Not easy.

Coming from the background I did, working on farms, county construction etc. when young, I "knew" about towing stuff. As I grew up I got bigger, nicer trucks and bigger, nicer toys. I knew how to tow; I "knew" how to control things. Once the topic of "weights" came up I "knew" I knew better. Hey, I've done this forever. Well, that doesn't really mean anything.

Bought a new 69 Chevy C10 - SUPER truck, 4 speed, 350..."beast". Bought a "shop" made (read custom) cabover camper. Really nice but more importantly, really heavy. The guy that built it said "no problem" on the truck. Yeah. Bought it and the truck just squatted. Added springs, heavy shocks etc. Until the day I sold both of them I was terrified of entering a curve at any speed because that truck would have absolutely flipped. Lesson taught; not learned. Had a Ford Ranger pulling a 16' flatbed and decided to cut some firewood and load it on the trailer....and come down a hairy mountain road. Well, when sitting in the dark with your headlights pointing up into the trees, 5' from a drop off of several hundred feet (that was a dying moment), seat covers completely sucked up where my sphincter muscle was, after losing control of steering another lesson taught - but not learned. I could go on but to say I was (and am) hard headed would be an understatement.

When I joined this forum I had bought a new Keystone and had a new truck. I had pulled for a long time but never really got into weights. "I got it" right? That's not really so. I posted my stuff, argued because I've done this a long time - never thought anyone wanted to force me to buy a dually; but they DID have a great concern for me and my combo....and I KNEW I was towing overweight....but I got it. Let me tell you this; you can make it "go", you can think it's "good", you can ignore numbers and think all is well.....until you are coming across Mobile Bay on the bridge and a nut guy decides to slam on his brakes for no reason. I found, with my gut in my mouth, that my 1/2 ton combo could do a lot of things, even overloaded, but it was not going to pull that trailer and truck down in time to save me and my wife. We would have went over that railing (stopped about a foot off the rear bumper of the car in front of me and the concrete barrier over the edge of the bridge) except for divine intervention. That would have happened with my wife never knowing I was overweight, never thinking there was a problem......NEVER thinking I would put her in that position. Got home - new truck and it WILL NEVER happen again.

So many good folks on here have similar experiences and histories. So many others are like me and "know", don't want to post numbers and they've "got it"...when they don't. The factors in the balance of discussing those things are the safety and welfare of not only the RV owner but those on the road with them...and yes, I've seen multiple RV accidents.

How then do you address an issue like that without seeming to stick your nose in where it doesn't belong? You just do. If someone is sitting on the side of the road and obviously need my help I don't wait to see if they "ask". If I saw someone being attacked in a parking lot I'm not going to say "they'll be OK" and go down the road.

I guess, in my mind, at the end of the line you do what you feel you have to do to help someone, maybe save someone, vs just saying "hey, it's their life, let them kill the family"....can't do it. If you saw a dad jack up a car with a bumper jack and have his kid crawl under there to do some work....knowing the jack can/will fall with the slightest malfunction; would you just ignore it and say it's not your business or would you push a bit? I've seen what happens when that jack falls.

This post should be a sticky in the Towing sub forum. So many good points.
Thank you, Danny.

[Javi]

I ain't into all them touchy, feely things. If I see someone doing something that may well get somebody hurt, I'm going to speak up.... don't like it.... move on or make me shut up... your choice.

I'm too old to care either way.

[Javi]

Originally Posted by blubuckaroo

I don't think age has anything to do with attitude. It's just used as an excuse. You are what you've always been.

Actually I was too old to care 60 + years ago.
I've always helped those who need help, up until they want to argue with me, then I walk away.
Back when I was about 25 years old an older fellow asked me my opinion on something that I was considered by many to have some knowledge.... then when I gave him my opinion, he told me straight up that I was wrong... my response to him was simple.. If you knew the answer... why the heck did you ask me...

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by RCW

It makes more since to gain ones respect by answering the original question. Then maybe a mod could PM the noob and explain the concern. If you can take the time publicly you should be able to do it in private.

Let me ask this: If you were new at this and you went and bought a trailer, you have probably built some kind of relationship with the sales person. They made you feel good about what you are doing, you are happy! Then you find a forum that talks about the very camper you own, again you are happy. But your are a little intimidated because you really don't know much about it. You ask a question about Key TV (sorry I had to) and get 6 responses stating that you need a new tow vehicle from people who you don't know and some aren't exactly nice about it. Who are you going to believe? What are the chances that you are going to ask another question?

Actually you already "censor" things as you should! I have seen the mods warn people about some of their posts why is this situation different?

I learned while coaching youth sports if a player doesn't do what your asking them to do on the field or court, you need to change the way you are delivering the message.

Sorry if I misunderstood your tone before.

Great idea... Possibly you could take on that challenge ??? The Private message system is available to every forum member, not just the "mods".

When it comes to "censorship". We don't censor anyone. We do warn people who violate the forum rules and remove posts that violate those rules. We don't remove posts just because they state facts that a mod or a site team member might not agree with. There is no rule (and there should never be a rule) against stating honest, factual information. That's significantly different from violating a forum rule. So, correcting a violation and censoring factual information that may not present an "all inclusive environment to a new member" are not the same thing. You state, "getting 6 responses....." Would it be "more acceptable to get no more than 5 responses" ??? Where do you draw that line and which members do you allow to post "in the 5" and which members do you "delete their posts because there are already 5"??? More important, how do you accomplish that without true censoring?

I've always believed in treating adults as adults, I'm not a fan of treating them like "youth on a sports field". Concise, factual information in a form that can be understood is, IMHO, much more acceptable to most adults than is "a sugar coated post that dances around the subject and tries to not say what needs to be said, hoping not to offend, and when the reader is finished with the post, wonder what the message might have been."

Sometimes, when a player on the field isn't doing what you want, it's because they are incapable of doing it. The same can be said about a vehicle that's incapable of towing a trailer safely... The difference: The coach can change the message delivery and encourage that player to try harder... You simply can't "sweet talk an F-150"..... YMMV......