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Old 04-28-2019, 12:36 PM   #1
Keystone Keeper
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Electrical - white and red wires are hot

Camping in Wisconsin. Hoping the community can share thoughts on a problem we are experiencing.

2010 Keystone Passport 199ML. Purchased new.

The AC outlet next to the left side of the bed stopped working this morning.

Used a non-contact voltage tester on the outlet. Discovered the outlet now has a hot white wire. And a hot red wire. Both wires are hot.

The weird thing is that the other outlets on the bedside outlet’s electrical circuit work normally. All have neutral white wires.

Tried resetting the breakers. No change. Both white and red wires are still hot in the outlet next to the bed.

Looked under camper for signs of rodent damage (the camper is stored indoor during the winter). No sign of damage for what I could see.

Then noticed the Dometic frig’s “automatic” and “check” lights were on. The frig had been working normally up to now. We have a temp gage inside - the temp was normal when we got up this morning.

Read the Dometic owner’s manual. Turned the frig off. Then tried to turn it back on. When I try, the "check" light briefly flickers. Then goes out. The "automatic" light remains off. In short, no indicator lights stay on.

When I switched to “gas” (the propane tank is full), again no lights turn on. The automatic light will not come on. The check light flickers briefly, then goes out.

The frig had turned off. The internal cooling fins were no longer cold.

Took off the outside frig access door. Then used a non-contact voltage tester on the frig AC outlet. The outlet has a hot white wire. And hot red wire. Just like the outlet next to the bed.

Tested the frig DC: 13.7 V.

Checked the two fuses on the circuit board. They appear to be okay. Can they be bad and appear okay?

Then plugged the frig into a good circuit (neutral white wire) with an extension cord. The indicator lights will not turn on. But the frig DOES now work. Currently about 35 degrees.

Any suggestions? To affect both the bedside outlet and frig outlet – both on opposite corners of the camper – seems strange. Especially since all the other outlets work normally.

Thank you for helping.
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Old 04-28-2019, 02:09 PM   #2
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The fuses in your rig control the DC wiring, the breakers control the AC. If you are having an outlet problem, fuses should be moot.

Since this problem isn't tripping a breaker, it sounds like a neutral wire that doesn't make it all the way back to its connection at the breaker box. Any appliance being plugged into any of the outlets on this circuit will take the white wire high but still won't function. To ascertain this, locate every outlet on this circuit, both the obvious and the hidden, and disconnect anything plugged into any of them -- if the white wire loses current, that's probably your issue.

Easiest would be to find a white wire fell out of the neutral bus bar in the box. Tougher would be to find rodent damage to the white wire somewhere underneath your rig.

* * *

I wanted to add: In general, I highly recommend this item for an RV toolbox. At $6 for a unit that lasts forever, it's a steal.
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Old 04-28-2019, 02:29 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lhaven View Post
The fuses in your rig control the DC wiring, the breakers control the AC. If you are having an outlet problem, fuses should be moot.
I think the fuses that were mentioned were on the refrigerator mother board.

It seems odd that two outlets on separate sides and ends of the trailer are having issues. I think the refrigerator issues must be separate because it should run on dc power and propane alone. If it is not running on dc and propane, I would say it is it’s own problem unrelated to the outlet not working.

Have you taken apart the outlet that is not working and/or replaced it? That is where I would start. I’m not sure what you are using to detect voltage, but a non contact voltage meter doesn’t sound very accurate to me.
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Old 04-28-2019, 02:37 PM   #4
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I think the refrigerator issues must be separate because it should run on dc power and propane alone. If it is not running on dc and propane, I would say it is it’s own problem unrelated to the outlet not working.
I don't have any real-world experience with how specific fridge boards are designed, but as an EE and digital circuit designer, I suspect I grok the general principles. There has to be a circuit that detects whether AC is present and switches to that, disabling the DC and propane. One would design a circuit to test AC by sensing a voltage on the red side and comparing it to ground (not neutral) through a trickle path. So the control board senses AC present and shuts off DC and propane; but since AC loop is faulty, it won't run the fridge. That would turn on the check light. If it is possible on this model to turn off "automatic" and manually select gas, I bet it would run despite the bad socket.
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Old 04-28-2019, 02:53 PM   #5
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Fridge control board is powered by 12VDC. The only thing AC voltage does is power the heating element. If the fridge is in auto and you unplug the AC cord it will run in LP if everything else is good.

The plug checker is a very useful tool, I have two. One has a button to trip the gfi as a test during PDI. I’m starting to think a neutral has come loose in a “speed box” (outlet) and will most likely be at the end of a circuit.
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Old 04-28-2019, 03:05 PM   #6
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Sure, but how the board is powered is moot. We know the board is working, else the indicator lights would not have been on. The board detects the presence of AC and makes the correct decisions; however the AC is not functional AC, so the fridge doesn't run.

It's certainly possible one of the neutrals has popped off in an outlet box. If one was sure what order they were wired in, one could easily locate that break by testing for hot neutral starting at the first outlet from the breaker box and working downstream, until the hot neutral showed up.
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Old 04-28-2019, 03:16 PM   #7
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AC doesn’t have to be functional for the fridge to operate. Only DC and propane.

Norcold has some models that you can’t choose auto or LP. On those to test the LP operation we unplug the cord. Dometic is the same, if AC isnt
present it will operate on DC and propane, if everything else is in working order.

I think your overthinking the fridge problem. Not to be a butt head but I work on these things daily.
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Old 04-28-2019, 03:23 PM   #8
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I understand what you are saying. I fear I'm not getting my point across. The board shuts off propane because it detects AC on the hot side... however, the AC it detects is not actually usable AC (because the neutral is hot, too) and won't run the fridge.
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Old 04-28-2019, 03:26 PM   #9
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I don't understand the red wire. I don't know where a red wire comes from to a 120 volt receptacle.
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Old 04-28-2019, 03:30 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lhaven View Post
I understand what you are saying. I fear I'm not getting my point across. The board shuts off propane because it detects AC on the hot side... however, the AC it detects is not actually usable AC (because the neutral is hot, too) and won't run the fridge.
So is the fridge operating? What indicator lights if any and is the interior light on?
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Old 04-28-2019, 03:30 PM   #11
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It originates on the breaker in the breaker box, and it daisy-chains from outlet to outlet on that circuit.
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Old 04-28-2019, 03:37 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lhaven View Post
It originates on the breaker in the breaker box, and it daisy-chains from outlet to outlet on that circuit.


That is strange because 110VAC Romex runs from the breaker panel should only have 3 conductors-black (hot),white (neutral) and bare (ground). The only run of 4 conductor I’ve seen is in the shore power cord TO the breaker panel.
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Old 04-28-2019, 03:41 PM   #13
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Sorry, I come from a context where hot wires are allowed to be red or black, and they are interchangeable. The OP reported encountering red wire on a 120V circuit, so I ran with it.
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Old 04-28-2019, 03:53 PM   #14
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Quote:
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Sorry, I come from a context where hot wires are allowed to be red or black, and they are interchangeable. The OP reported encountering red wire on a 120V circuit, so I ran with it.
Where the shore power comes in it is red AND black that are hot. two separate feeds of 50A for a TOTAL of 100A available to use across two "banks" most common for units with 2 or 3 roof air to have at least two on separate sides of the breaker panel.
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Old 04-28-2019, 03:59 PM   #15
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Not making sense of a lot of this. Red wires and white wires hot with an NCV tester doesn't narrow things down. Sounds like you're hitting DC wiring?

I'm hesitant to say this but have you checked the GFCI outlet probably in the bathroom and made sure it's not tripped?
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Old 04-28-2019, 05:25 PM   #16
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The frig now runs using an extension cord connected to another outlet. I use a ceramic heater. Very cold last night (the ceramic heater still works on the original outlet). Could the ceramic heater overheated the the inverter and somehow shut down the other two outlets? Have cycled the ground fault indicator button and all the breakers. No luck.

The non-contact voltage tester indicates power on both sides of the plug of the two outlets not working. It indicates power on one side of the plug for the other functioning outlets.

The multi meter indicates no power at all for the two outlets not working. It does indicate power for the functioning outlets.

Another piece of the puzzle: The battery, fully charged, will not light inside lights. Shore power will light inside lights.

Thank you for the help.
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Old 04-28-2019, 05:33 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keystone Keeper View Post
The frig now runs using an extension cord connected to another outlet. I use a ceramic heater. Very cold last night (the ceramic heater still works on the original outlet). Could the ceramic heater overheated the the inverter and somehow shut down the other two outlets? Have cycled the ground fault indicator button and all the breakers. No luck.

The non-contact voltage tester indicates power on both sides of the plug of the two outlets not working. It indicates power on one side of the plug for the other functioning outlets.

The multi meter indicates no power at all for the two outlets not working. It does indicate power for the functioning outlets.

Another piece of the puzzle: The battery, fully charged, will not light inside lights. Shore power will light inside lights.

Thank you for the help.
I would say the non contact voltage meter is probably picking up power from some nearby wires. I would pull out the affected outlets, if you haven’t already, check the connections, and put your multi meter directly on the wires/connections to see if you are getting power through the wires.
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Old 04-28-2019, 06:06 PM   #18
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Just a comment; I've never used a "non contact" volt meter so I have no idea how accurate they may or may not be. I do know that the most accurate way to measure anything is by using direct contact with a meter IMO. I've had induced voltage reading happen in various circumstances and who knows what else. Wire to wire...full contact works best to me....but.....

But don't be a 22 year old know it all trying to help your uncle, then "troubleshoot" an old fuse box with the screw in fuses, put on your insulated boots/gloves and stand on a metal ladder to "professionally" assess his issues, have a screwdriver (for some lost reason from 50 years ago) slip and weld itself between the hot lead and ground buss - in the interim showering you with molten metal, burning little spots in your clothes and "lots" of pits in my prescription glasses!!

Wire to wire to measure, yes, but don't over do!!!
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Old 04-29-2019, 04:01 AM   #19
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Danny, you say '22 year old know it all' like it's a bad thing!
I sure wish I was actually AT the RV where I could work HANDS-ON with this problem. These things are particularly tough long-distance.
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Old 04-29-2019, 09:53 AM   #20
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The multi meter indicates no power at all for the two outlets not working.
Nor would it if both sides are hot.

Now... does the multi-meter indicate power between the white side (large prong) and the ground (center prong)? That's the test you need to run. It shouldn't, but if your analysis is correct, it will.

If you remove absolutely every plug from every outlet on this circuit, the white side should drop. It's not reasonable to assume that your rig simultaneously developed a break in the white near the breaker box and a short inside a far-end outlet simultaneously.
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