Adding Inverter to SolarFlex 200? - Page 2

entropy1980 · 10-31-2021, 09:23 AM

Ok update. Picked up the trailer yesterday. Attached are photos of the inverter prep. Seems simple enough? Do I just cut the wire, terminate one end into inverter, then terminate other end out of the “out” of the inverter? Any tips for figuring out which side of the loop goes where? Thanks everyone in advance! https://www.dropbox.com/s/n3pamodohr...%2033%20AM.jpg

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vxvt53ggjm...%2037%20AM.jpg

twanger · 10-31-2021, 10:46 AM

Some useful threads come up if you search on “inverter prep loop” like:
https://www.keystoneforums.com/forum...ad.php?t=42742
and
https://www.keystoneforums.com/forum...ad.php?t=48404

entropy1980 · 10-31-2021, 11:02 AM

So I had looked through those but didn’t see anything that resembled what I have. All I have is the romex.

**flybouy** · 10-31-2021, 11:21 AM

How familiar/comfortable are you with working on 120v ac wireing? What tools and testers do you have?

entropy1980 · 10-31-2021, 11:33 AM

Comfortable. Multimeters and other testers in my posession.

**flybouy** · 10-31-2021, 02:19 PM

Turn off ALL electric to the camper. Cut the romex and strip the wires. Seperate all conductors and wire nut each bare conductor. Turn the electric back on and which ever side is "hot" (energized) is the conductor attached to the breaker. The non-energized conductors are connected to the outlet(s). I would strongly urge/advise using a non-contact circuit tester. They are very inexpensive and will make testing a safe venture.

mikec557 · 10-31-2021, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by entropy1980

Ok update. Picked up the trailer yesterday. Attached are photos of the inverter prep. Seems simple enough? Do I just cut the wire, terminate one end into inverter, then terminate other end out of the “out” of the inverter? Any tips for figuring out which side of the loop goes where? Thanks everyone in advance! https://www.dropbox.com/s/n3pamodohr...%2033%20AM.jpg

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vxvt53ggjm...%2037%20AM.jpg

I lost track. Did you decide to use an inverter with built-in bypass? That's the only way there's a 120vac IN and an OUT. If so, what make and model inverter?

entropy1980 · 10-31-2021, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikec557

I lost track. Did you decide to use an inverter with built-in bypass? That's the only way there's a 120vac IN and an OUT. If so, what make and model inverter?

So that’s what I can’t seem to get a straight answer from anyone on. Dealer couldn’t answer. I sent Keystone a message and got the typical “see dealer service dept. “

I bought a Renogy it does not have by-pass. They really should include a wire diagram for what exactly is installed this guessing is driving me nuts. I have no clue where this yellow romex goes. I got a “yeah that should be all you have to do” when I talked to service dept. and asked “should I cut the romex and see which side is hot, hook up to inverter input and then hook other side to output?” Not encouraging to hear I might have to have an inverter with bypass

twanger · 11-01-2021, 03:36 AM

Did you see the keystone wiring diagram posted in the link below? I think it answers a lot your questions.

https://www.keystoneforums.com/forum...rter+prep+loop

entropy1980 · 11-01-2021, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twanger

Did you see the keystone wiring diagram posted in the link below? I think it answers a lot your questions.

https://www.keystoneforums.com/forum...rter+prep+loop

No, just looked through it, it looks different from what I am seeing on mine though. I need to spend some time on it tomorrow and see if I can sort it all out I guess.

jxnbbl · 11-01-2021, 06:26 AM

I'm going through this myself in an around about fashion...bought a trailer they said had the solarflex200 installed, it did not but had the zamp OTG package. Worked a deal with the dealer and bought the components to put the maximum zamp panels (three 170W panels) on the trailer and upgrade the batteries to AGM....and a 30W controler (non-bluetooth).

Anyways I only really was concerned about running the 12V fridge OTG for 5 days maintaining 4 cases of homebrew for a wedding as well as a few nights of OTG with heat/fridge...so I installed 2 panels. Everything worked great. I also bought/installed a the following battery box - https://www.etrailer.com/Battery-Box.../TLA7712R.html

For the inverter, the OTG package and what you have as "inverter prep" is exactly the same.

I probably will not complete the install until spring - but have 2/0 battery wiring, shutoff, fuse, covered electrical box for all the electronics in the pass-through and a Freedom 2000 inverter. I did buy this due to the built in transferswitch....which you will need. Here is a basic wiring diagram for all this stuff (although I think it has a 1000W inverter) credit to the original poster for that diagram.

entropy1980 · 11-01-2021, 07:15 AM

Ok so the thing I am confused about is I have only the single romex. Looking at the diagram looks like it would currently be running from panel to "inverted" outlets. So if I cut this romex and hook it like the diagram I am missing power from the battery. So that's why I am confused... would I hook up the input on the inverter to the load on the victron controller?

mikec557 · 11-01-2021, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by entropy1980

So that’s what I can’t seem to get a straight answer from anyone on. Dealer couldn’t answer. I sent Keystone a message and got the typical “see dealer service dept. “

I bought a Renogy it does not have by-pass. They really should include a wire diagram for what exactly is installed this guessing is driving me nuts. I have no clue where this yellow romex goes. I got a “yeah that should be all you have to do” when I talked to service dept. and asked “should I cut the romex and see which side is hot, hook up to inverter input and then hook other side to output?” Not encouraging to hear I might have to have an inverter with bypass

Remember that all inverters need to connect directly to the batteries. With the exception that it may connect to a positive and negative Bus Bar if the bus bar is directly connected to the batteries with cable at least as large as the cable the inverter would require if it were connected directly to the batteries. To answer one of your earlier questions, the inverter will never connect to your Victron (charge) controller.

Your yellow loop of romex is simply a loop of slack that connects the breaker panel inside the RV to the three(ish) outlets that we call the inverted outlets. Clearly those outlets need to be fed 120vac. It's the source of that 120vac that confounds you.

At the moment, the only source is the breaker panel. The optimum solution would be such that the outlets would be fed by either the breaker panel or an inverter. But they will never be fed by both sources simultaneously. Shore power is always the preferred source.

If you use the yellowish inverter posted earlier, you'd have to cut the loop of romex and somehow plug the outlets into that inverter. Then they would never be fed by the breaker panel because they're plugged into that inverter. That inverter does not have a bypass.

Think of an inverter with bypass as a Y-connector. The outlets are connected at the bottom of the Y, they will be fed by either the top left leg, or the top right leg. When you cut the romex loop, the end of that wire that the outlets are connected to goes to the 120vac OUT of the inverter with bypass. The breaker panel is connected to the 120vac IN of the inverter with bypass. Think of it as the top right leg of the Y. Think of the other upper left leg of the Y as the heavy cables from the batteries to the inverter. The inverter with bypass decides which upper leg to pull from in order to feed the outlets out the bottom of the Y. If you are connected to shore power, the inverter will take power from the breaker panel and feed it to the outlets. This is true whether the inverter is ON or OFF. But if you are NOT connected to shore power, and if the inverter with bypass is ON, it will pull 12vdc from the batteries, make 120vac, and send that 120vac to the outlets. But it won't do that unless you turn the inverter ON or you leave it on all the time (which I don't do).

Does that clear it up?

Essvar · 11-01-2021, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by entropy1980

Ok so the thing I am confused about is I have only the single romex. Looking at the diagram looks like it would currently be running from panel to "inverted" outlets. So if I cut this romex and hook it like the diagram I am missing power from the battery. So that's why I am confused... would I hook up the input on the inverter to the load on the victron controller?

Your inverter prep will have a single romex wire coming from the 120v main panel and going to the pre determined solar prep outlets. To install an inverter you will need to cut this wire and figure out which side is coming from the panel and which side is going to your outlets. (hot side/cold side)

If you don't have a pass-through inverter the hot side will need to be safely capped and the cold side will be connected to your inverters output.

The solar charge controller and the solar system in its entirety are not connected to the inverter in any way. (other than they both go to the battery)

EDIT: Without a Pass-Through inverter the inverted outlets will not work unless you have the inverter turned on.

**flybouy** · 11-01-2021, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by entropy1980

Ok so the thing I am confused about is I have only the single romex. Looking at the diagram looks like it would currently be running from panel to "inverted" outlets. So if I cut this romex and hook it like the diagram I am missing power from the battery. So that's why I am confused... would I hook up the input on the inverter to the load on the victron controller?

You need to make the electrical connects as indicated in the instructions that should be included with your inverter. If tuose instructions are not understood then I'd strongly urge you to get someone qualified to install it. No disrespect but working on 120v ac circuits is dangerouse and can be deadly.

entropy1980 · 11-01-2021, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essvar

Your inverter prep will have a single romex wire coming from the 120v main panel and going to the pre determined solar prep outlets. To install an inverter you will need to cut this wire and figure out which side is coming from the panel and which side is going to your outlets. (hot side/cold side)

If you don't have a pass-through inverter the hot side will need to be safely capped and the cold side will be connected to your inverters output.

The solar charge controller and the solar system in its entirety are not connected to the inverter in any way. (other than they both go to the battery)

EDIT: Without a Pass-Through inverter the inverted outlets will not work unless you have the inverter turned on.

Got it. So I'll return the Renogy and pickup the Xantrex, then I am guessing I need to pull cables from the Xantrex to batteries?

**JRTJH** · 11-01-2021, 08:43 AM

Cutting the ROMEX to install an inverter is the "process" but fails to address many "implications" that also are critically important:

Using a "cheap inverter" without a transfer switch (either internal to the inverter or externally wired) means that the only power to the inverter and subsequently to the outlets, is provided by the battery. That means the outlets can only provide the amount of energy stored in the battery or resupplied by the charging system. It also means that the battery bank will be required to "consume itself" to provide "ordinary shore power" to those outlets.... A "inverter installation that includes "capping the hot side of the ROMEX" is, for all intentions, a "never do" situation....

If a transfer switch is going to be "hard wired into the system" and if those three(ish) outlets are going to be used for "shore power purposes" then a "quality inverter with a transfer switch" should be the only consideration.

I can imagine a situation where someone plugs a hair dryer, a toaster or even a space heater into one of the "inverter supplied outlets", thinking that "the trailer is on shore power so the campground is powering this outlet" only to find a "hot, smoking battey, a 1000 watt inverter with blown fuses or burned components and an expensive repair bill to put it back to OEM configuration.

I'd urge anyone "seeking to novice mod their solar powered/battery powered off the grid system" to think it through completely before taking the bold step of cutting that ROMEX loop without fully understanding what the system is designed to do and more importantly, what it can't/won't do.....

To me, it's sort of like watching the Blue Angles or the Thunderbirds aerial performance and then renting a Cessna 172 and "heading out over the bay"... If the equipment isn't capable of doing what you're going to attempt, you're going to get wet with the first inverted maneuver...

Same with cutting that ROMEX.... Think it through before modifying the system.

entropy1980 · 11-01-2021, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRTJH

Cutting the ROMEX to install an inverter is the "process" but fails to address many "implications" that also are critically important:

Using a "cheap inverter" without a transfer switch (either internal to the inverter or externally wired) means that the only power to the inverter and subsequently to the outlets, is provided by the battery. That means the outlets can only provide the amount of energy stored in the battery or resupplied by the charging system. It also means that the battery bank will be required to "consume itself" to provide "ordinary shore power" to those outlets.... A "inverter installation that includes "capping the hot side of the ROMEX" is, for all intentions, a "never do" situation....

If a transfer switch is going to be "hard wired into the system" and if those three(ish) outlets are going to be used for "shore power purposes" then a "quality inverter with a transfer switch" should be the only consideration.

I can imagine a situation where someone plugs a hair dryer, a toaster or even a space heater into one of the "inverter supplied outlets", thinking that "the trailer is on shore power so the campground is powering this outlet" only to find a "hot, smoking battey, a 1000 watt inverter with blown fuses or burned components and an expensive repair bill to put it back to OEM configuration.

I'd urge anyone "seeking to novice mod their solar powered/battery powered off the grid system" to think it through completely before taking the bold step of cutting that ROMEX loop without fully understanding what the system is designed to do and more importantly, what it can't/won't do.....

To me, it's sort of like watching the Blue Angles or the Thunderbirds aerial performance and then renting a Cessna 172 and "heading out over the bay"... If the equipment isn't capable of doing what you're going to attempt, you're going to get wet with the first inverted maneuver...

Same with cutting that ROMEX.... Think it through before modifying the system.

I get what you are saying. I think marketing it as "Inverter Prep" is a little overboard. IMHO they should have everything pulled there to make it possible. Throwing the romex there and calling it "Inverter Prep" leads one to believe (maybe just me?) that it was prepped to install an inverter. Thanks everyone for the suggestions and help I think I see what I need to do to get it going now.

Recapping:

Buying a Xantrex (with bypass)
Cutting romex
Tie outlets and breaker to Xantrex
Run cable to batteries (inserting breaker and disconnect between batteries and Xantrex)

Essvar · 11-01-2021, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by entropy1980

I get what you are saying. I think marketing it as "Inverter Prep" is a little overboard. IMHO they should have everything pulled there to make it possible. Throwing the romex there and calling it "Inverter Prep" leads one to believe (maybe just me?) that it was prepped to install an inverter. Thanks everyone for the suggestions and help I think I see what I need to do to get it going now.

Recapping:

Buying a Xantrex (with bypass)
Cutting romex
Tie outlets and breaker to Xantrex
Run cable to batteries (inserting breaker and disconnect between batteries and Xantrex)

Looks like you've got it. I also purchased the remote for my Xantrex so I can turn the inverter on/off without going outside and into the basement.

**JRTJH** · 11-01-2021, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by entropy1980

I get what you are saying. I think marketing it as "Inverter Prep" is a little overboard. IMHO they should have everything pulled there to make it possible. Throwing the romex there and calling it "Inverter Prep" leads one to believe (maybe just me?) that it was prepped to install an inverter. Thanks everyone for the suggestions and help I think I see what I need to do to get it going now.

Recapping:

Buying a Xantrex (with bypass)
Cutting romex
Tie outlets and breaker to Xantrex
Run cable to batteries (inserting breaker and disconnect between batteries and Xantrex)

The "advertising and marketing division" doesn't always talk to the engineering and safety division"... When that happens, the customer is the one "caught in the middle"...

I can envision someone going to Harbor Freight or to WalMart, buying a $39 750 watt inverter, unplugging their shore power cable (hopefully), cutting the ROMEX and "with their vast knowledge of electricity" <said tongue in cheek>, verify the "cold end", wire an old extension cord to the ROMEX, plug it into their inverter, connect the battery and the "solar controller" and go plug in their TV to verify it works.... Then in the middle of nowhere, on the first "boondocking trip" they awake to the "acrid smell of burning electrical components".... No fire department, no 911, no cell service and they post, "I connected my inverter just like they told me to on that damn Keystone forum and ........"

There's a "crapload more to consider" than "every Keystone trailer will be equipped with at least a 200 watt SolarFlex System"...

Bottom line: While modifying the OEM solar components to integrate with upgraded components is "easy to do", not everyone has the skill level to take on the challenge. If someone is knowledgeable and does the job, great. If someone "reads a forum and decides to wing it, it can't be that hard"...

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