Question for the tow police

tylerj1966 · 01-06-2020, 12:18 PM

I've been looking around the various mfg websites and one of the options offered is to lower the GVW from 14k to 12.3k and even as low as 10k on some srw trucks. I live in a state that charges a weight fee as part of the registration cost. My question is, do you guys that hammer everyone on exceeding the weight of their door sticker think an F350 with a 10k GVW is any less capable than the same F350 with a 14k GVW? These 2 trucks are identical, ie. same frame and axles, but the buyer has asked for a lower GVW to save on registration fees.

**chuckster57** · 01-06-2020, 12:51 PM

It isn’t any less capable if it came from the factory with the higher rating. I live in Ca like you and yeah weight fees are excessive but I’m willing to bet the penalties of getting caught hauling over the limit are worse.

**JRTJH** · 01-06-2020, 01:22 PM

There are three considerations to answer your question.

First, are you POSITIVE that Ford, GM or Chrysler actually build their 1 ton truck with a 10K GVW "exactly" the same as they build their 1 ton truck with a 14K GVW ??? There "may be more than meets the eye".... I'd confirm with the manufacturer if the components are "exactly the same" before assuming they "must be because the trucks were parked side by side and look alike"...

Second, as Chuckster commented, if you register it at 10K and get caught, either by having an accident or getting a ticket for speeding and an "over-zealous LEO" decides to "stick the screws to you" and demands a weight.....

Third, if you're ever involved in an accident, whether it's your fault or not, the civil side of taking your money (not the legal side of who was responsible) can make you a pauper tomorrow even though you're a millionaire today..... Juries don't rely on "beyond a shadow of doubt" in civil suits, it's "the preponderance of evidence" (probably more likely he did than he didn't) when they take your money and give it to the other side. If they (the other side) can place blame on the truck's registration, how much "muddy water" can they sling and make stick ????

It's not "strictly" the physical capability of the vehicle, it's the "whole concept" that can bite you on the butt when you least expect it.....

I'd talk to a legal expert in your state about the "legal vs civil laws" and how they relate to your state's criminal code AND civil code.... Laws don't just provide for punishment, they also provide for benefits to the injured and that's the part that makes you a pauper......

gearhead · 01-06-2020, 01:24 PM

Heck I had a F350, maybe 2010-12, that had a 10,300 GVW from the factory on the yellow sticker. Payload was like 3267. Lariat, 4x4, crew cab, etc. I thought Ford did it on purpose for some reason.
My Ram dually has 14,000 GVW. Dealer registered it for 10,000. I made a fool of myself over that in the showroom. Dealer says it weighs 8,000 and it's a 1 ton, so 10,000. No man, that ain't right. It don't make any difference nobody around here cares anyway. Yeah but what happens if I'm in New Jersey or California. Uh well uh I dunno. So I went to my county clerk office and re-registered it for 14,000, Cost $1. But a year later when it was time for new stickers it was $140 instead of $77.
You pays your money and you takes your choice.

tylerj1966 · 01-06-2020, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckster57

It isn’t any less capable if it came from the factory with the higher rating. I live in Ca like you and yeah weight fees are excessive but I’m willing to bet the penalties of getting caught hauling over the limit are worse.

So are you saying it's less capable if the door sticker says 10k? Has anyone in the RV world ever been questioned or cited for exceeding their GVW? I've been a commercial driver for 32 years, RVing for the last 15 and I've never been looked at. Chuckster, you're retired law enforcement. I realize as a commercial driver I may be asked to drive a few miles to weigh my vehicle and be inspected. RVs are unregulated. If an officer wants to weigh my RV can't I just tell him no and go on my way?

tylerj1966 · 01-06-2020, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRTJH

There are three considerations to answer your question.

First, are you POSITIVE that Ford, GM or Chrysler actually build their 1 ton truck with a 10K GVW "exactly" the same as they build their 1 ton truck with a 14K GVW ??? There "may be more than meets the eye".... I'd confirm with the manufacturer if the components are "exactly the same" before assuming they "must be because the trucks were parked side by side and look alike"...

Second, as Chuckster commented, if you register it at 10K and get caught, either by having an accident or getting a ticket for speeding and an "over-zealous LEO" decides to "stick the screws to you" and demands a weight.....

Third, if you're ever involved in an accident, whether it's your fault or not, the civil side of taking your money (not the legal side of who was responsible) can make you a pauper tomorrow even though you're a millionaire today..... Juries don't rely on "beyond a shadow of doubt" in civil suits, it's "the preponderance of evidence" (probably more likely he did than he didn't) when they take your money and give it to the other side. If they (the other side) can place blame on the truck's registration, how much "muddy water" can they sling and make stick ????

It's not "strictly" the physical capability of the vehicle, it's the "whole concept" that can bite you on the butt when you least expect it.....

I'd talk to a legal expert in your state about the "legal vs civil laws" and how they relate to your state's criminal code AND civil code.... Laws don't just provide for punishment, they also provide for benefits to the injured and that's the part that makes you a pauper......

In your hypothetical lawsuit example, couldn't you call a Ford expert to testify that the truck was not overweight because it was designed to carry 14k and not the 10k listed on the door sticker?

**JRTJH** · 01-06-2020, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tylerj1966

In your hypothetical lawsuit example, couldn't you call a Ford expert to testify that the truck was not overweight because it was designed to carry 14k and not the 10k listed on the door sticker?

If I were foolish enough to get into that kind of situation, I'd likely NOT attempt to represent myself in court and I'd rely on the advice of the very best lawyer I could hire... So, to answer your hypothetical question, "I don't know"...

A comment though, when I have a little spare time and decide to watch TV, often, the only thing on "worth watching" is one of the legal shows, you know, like Boston Legal, Law and Order, The Good Wife, etc... Every time I watch them, somewhere in the show, somebody will say, "Never put a witness on the stand if you don't know exactly what he'll say".... So, I suppose, the hypothetical answer would be, "Depends on what that Ford expert is going to say under oath"... Which is why I suggested that if you "really want to know, contact the manufacturer and ask them the pointed question about if the 10K GVW truck is the same as the 14K GVW truck. I'm fairly certain you won't get an answer from this forum that will "hold up in hypothetical court"......

**flybouy** · 01-06-2020, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tylerj1966

So are you saying it's less capable if the door sticker says 10k? Has anyone in the RV world ever been questioned or cited for exceeding their GVW? I've been a commercial driver for 32 years, RVing for the last 15 and I've never been looked at. Chuckster, you're retired law enforcement. I realize as a commercial driver I may be asked to drive a few miles to weigh my vehicle and be inspected. RVs are unregulated. If an officer wants to weigh my RV can't I just tell him no and go on my way?

RVs are regulated, that's what the registration and tags are all about. In Maryland, a MSP officer can call for the SP SUV with the portable scales if they have probable cause. I'm guessing a trailer sticker close to the TV sticker may be PC.

ctbruce · 01-06-2020, 03:14 PM

Hypothetically speaking, and it is just barely Winter, but the daycs are getting longer. Most likely, you will seldom be the smartest guy in the room. What you save today will cost dearly down the road. With the stress and anxiety worrying over it, just ain't worth it.

bsmith0404 · 01-06-2020, 03:23 PM

When i was transporting I had to go through scales with RVs in most states because I was commercial. They check axle weights, not registration weights. Most states don’t want personal RVs in the scales, CA has signs for the stations that say no RVs. 3/4 ton trucks are regulated to 10k GVWR based on being a class II truck, what the true capability is can be debated and on this forum. I don’t think we have any engineers that have enough knowledge of the construction/differences to say. The new GM 2500s have a GVWR over 11k. That might be closer to real capabilities of the 3/4 tons. I’m not sure how GM is doing that unless they’ve said the heck with the class II classification in favor of payload capacity.

**sourdough** · 01-06-2020, 03:25 PM

I knew from the OPs first post and then his first response this was a baited question for an argument. Laws are laws, rules are rules. Be smart enough to follow them or don't - that's up to an individual. As has been pointed out, there are many ramifications that go with exceeding the registered weight of a vehicle - and it has ZERO to do with if you think it can carry more or not; the registration TELLS you what it can weigh.

I was just reading an excerpt from an officer with the TX DPS in Austin about the subject. His statement was that in the event of a citation or accident (yes tow vehicles and RVs are regulated) the trooper looks at the weight on the REGISTRATION of either vehicle....that is the determining factor. Keep in mind that will also be in play when you're sitting in court and the jury takes your money and home to pay for being obstinate. He went on to say that if a person wants their vehicle to be registered for a higher weight rating then they had to go to DMV, pay for it and have it documented on the registration. THEN you're covered. I am 100% positive that they will not care what you think in a court room nor will they care if you find a Ford "rep" that says other than your registration. You will be dealing with state laws and how the judge and jury interpret them....not you. As Brent says - "you pays your money and you takes your choice".

wiredgeorge · 01-06-2020, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sourdough

I knew from the OPs first post and then his first response this was a baited question for an argument. Laws are laws, rules are rules. Be smart enough to follow them or don't - that's up to an individual. As has been pointed out, there are many ramifications that go with exceeding the registered weight of a vehicle - and it has ZERO to do with if you think it can carry more or not; the registration TELLS you what it can weigh.

I was just reading an excerpt from an officer with the TX DPS in Austin about the subject. His statement was that in the event of a citation or accident (yes tow vehicles and RVs are regulated) the trooper looks at the weight on the REGISTRATION of either vehicle....that is the determining factor. Keep in mind that will also be in play when you're sitting in court and the jury takes your money and home to pay for being obstinate. He went on to say that if a person wants their vehicle to be registered for a higher weight rating then they had to go to DMV, pay for it and have it documented on the registration. THEN you're covered. I am 100% positive that they will not care what you think in a court room nor will they care if you find a Ford "rep" that says other than your registration. You will be dealing with state laws and how the judge and jury interpret them....not you. As Brent says - "you pays your money and you takes your choice".

My registration is my window sticker... 2/20 Medina County. There is no paper registration but the tax office may be able to provide this info since they charge based on this type info IF the LEO is willing to go through the trouble. I am a 4th degree amateur lawyer sooooooo

**sourdough** · 01-06-2020, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiredgeorge

My registration is my window sticker... 2/20 Medina County. There is no paper registration but the tax office may be able to provide this info since they charge based on this type info IF the LEO is willing to go through the trouble. I am a 4th degree amateur lawyer sooooooo

My registration is my window sticker as well, but.....it comes on a paper that has your actual registration along with your registered weight as I recall and it's recorded for that vehicle and up to us to know....or carry that paper (just pulled the original for the truck I just traded in out of it).

As far as pulling all that info; they carry a little reader that they just read the code on the sticker and it gives them all your registration info along with insurance and coverages....pretty neat.

**JRTJH** · 01-06-2020, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiredgeorge

My registration is my window sticker... 2/20 Medina County. There is no paper registration but the tax office may be able to provide this info since they charge based on this type info IF the LEO is willing to go through the trouble. I am a 4th degree amateur lawyer sooooooo

I'd bet you that while the LEO has your license and insurance and walks back to his car to "run your plates", the information that comes up on the laptop in his vehicle will have the "entire registration history" to go along with that 2/20 sticker on your window. Probably the reason they don't give you a paper copy any longer is because they already have it "in the system"... I'd bet that the "fees and weight declarations" are a part of what comes up when he punches in your license plate number....

In Michigan, they have much more than just your vehicle information. If you have a CPL, when an officer approaches your vehicle during a routine stop, you are required to state, "I have a CPL and I have (quantity) weapons in this vehicle." You can bet that when he's approaching you, he already knows your CPL status and all you're really doing is telling him if you're armed or not...…

It's amazing all the information they can pack into that little "folding box with a TV screen" that plugs into the officer's dash.....

tylerj1966 · 01-06-2020, 04:29 PM

Sorry if anyone thought this was a "baited" question. I thought this was a forum and open for discussion.

There seems to be more than one issue here and I have to disagree. I doubt very seriously there is any "legal liability" if I were to have an accident in a truck rated for 14k yet I've only paid for 10k worth of registration fees. This is simply a calculation a state uses to figure fees on how much wear and tear their highway gets. Yes, I might be in trouble with the state for not paying my fair share, but it in no way relates to what my vehicle can safely carry. I drive a big rig and trailer in California with a GVWR of 109,000 lbs. I can register said truck with the DMV for 40k, which barely covers the empty weight. Does that mean my vehicle is less capable, or more liable, or caused an accident because I was hauling something which put me over the registered weight of 40k? Don't get these issues confused.

My original question was about spec'ing down the GVW of a new pickup. The only difference between an F250 and 350 is a rear overload spring. I've read many times you guys telling people to simply go by the door sticker on whether their truck is overloaded or not. In the 250/350 example above, do you think if the overload spring (or airbags) were added to the 250, it would still be unsafe pulling the load of the 350?

As for being "regulated," every car driver is also "regulated" because they pay registration? If CHP pulled me over and told me he wanted to perform a safety/compliance inspection on my family car, I would laugh at him and ask to speak to his supervisor. If on the other hand, I was in a commercial vehicle I would comply. Cars and RVs are definitely unregulated, ie not subject to commercial vehicle regulations. A commercial operator would have to submit to being weighed; with an RV driver this might be a fifth amendment issue, but what do I know? I'm just a truck driver!

I've always had this "capability" question when reading everyone's advice to "go by the door sticker." Wouldn't people be better served if they were advised to add a few modifications instead of trading their F250 for a 350? Just my 2¢

tylerj1966 · 01-06-2020, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sourdough

I knew from the OPs first post and then his first response this was a baited question for an argument. Laws are laws, rules are rules. Be smart enough to follow them or don't - that's up to an individual. As has been pointed out, there are many ramifications that go with exceeding the registered weight of a vehicle - and it has ZERO to do with if you think it can carry more or not; the registration TELLS you what it can weigh.

I was just reading an excerpt from an officer with the TX DPS in Austin about the subject. His statement was that in the event of a citation or accident (yes tow vehicles and RVs are regulated) the trooper looks at the weight on the REGISTRATION of either vehicle....that is the determining factor. Keep in mind that will also be in play when you're sitting in court and the jury takes your money and home to pay for being obstinate. He went on to say that if a person wants their vehicle to be registered for a higher weight rating then they had to go to DMV, pay for it and have it documented on the registration. THEN you're covered. I am 100% positive that they will not care what you think in a court room nor will they care if you find a Ford "rep" that says other than your registration. You will be dealing with state laws and how the judge and jury interpret them....not you. As Brent says - "you pays your money and you takes your choice".

If you guys got lit up by this question, wait until I post about why my srw is more capable and can carry more than your dually!

CWtheMan · 01-06-2020, 04:48 PM

GVW = Gross Vehicle Weight: A value that changes every time on-board weight is added or subtracted.

GVWR = Gross Vehicle Weight Rating: The maximum value a vehicle can weigh.

GCWR = Gross Combined Weight Rating: The maximum value a tow vehicle and a vehicle in tow can weigh. (The same tow vehicle can have different GCWRs when transmission gearing is increased/decreased.) However, neither vehicle, by itself, can exceed its GVWR.

Taxation by individual states differ considerably. Here in SC we are taxed by our actual GCWR. SC DOT vehicles carry individual wheel position scales. They weigh all wheel positions whenever a vehicle is suspected to be exceeding their GCWR.

**sourdough** · 01-06-2020, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tylerj1966

If you guys got lit up by this question, wait until I post about why my srw is more capable and can carry more than your dually!

I'm not at all "lit up" about your question; only about your inability to understand. Sorry. Do what you need to do - you know the answers; just hope I'm not on the jury looking at you...oh wait, you're in CA...won't happen.

**JRTJH** · 01-06-2020, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tylerj1966

Sorry if anyone thought this was a "baited" question. I thought this was a forum and open for discussion.

There seems to be more than one issue here and I have to disagree. I doubt very seriously there is any "legal liability" if I were to have an accident in a truck rated for 14k yet I've only paid for 10k worth of registration fees. This is simply a calculation a state uses to figure fees on how much wear and tear their highway gets. Yes, I might be in trouble with the state for not paying my fair share, but it in no way relates to what my vehicle can safely carry. I drive a big rig and trailer in California with a GVWR of 109,000 lbs. I can register said truck with the DMV for 40k, which barely covers the empty weight. Does that mean my vehicle is less capable, or more liable, or caused an accident because I was hauling something which put me over the registered weight of 40k? Don't get these issues confused.

My original question was about spec'ing down the GVW of a new pickup. The only difference between an F250 and 350 is a rear overload spring. I've read many times you guys telling people to simply go by the door sticker on whether their truck is overloaded or not. In the 250/350 example above, do you think if the overload spring (or airbags) were added to the 250, it would still be unsafe pulling the load of the 350?

As for being "regulated," every car driver is also "regulated" because they pay registration? If CHP pulled me over and told me he wanted to perform a safety/compliance inspection on my family car, I would laugh at him and ask to speak to his supervisor. If on the other hand, I was in a commercial vehicle I would comply. Cars and RVs are definitely unregulated, ie not subject to commercial vehicle regulations. A commercial operator would have to submit to being weighed; with an RV driver this might be a fifth amendment issue, but what do I know? I'm just a truck driver!

I've always had this "capability" question when reading everyone's advice to "go by the door sticker." Wouldn't people be better served if they were advised to add a few modifications instead of trading their F250 for a 350? Just my 2¢

I'll color code for clarity:

RED: You're wrong. Check the Ford build guide. Rear axles are different, and in the case of the F250 gas, the transmission is also different. There are likely many other differences as well, so a blanket statement about an overload spring is incorrect.

GREEN: If you laugh at a LEO around here and give him a hard time about discussing things with his supervisor, you'll get a free ride to the supervisor's office (in handcuffs). The job of enforcing the law is hard enough without "*-holes" giving officers a hard time about stupid stuff.

BLUE: Not if the suggestion to add modifications would put that member in a situation where he could be sued or fined and found guilty of violating a law in the state where his vehicle is registered and/or where he is stopped or involved in an accident. You've got to remember that there are 50 states and all 50 have laws that make each state different from all the others. What's legal for you may well get another member in a different state locked up for 10 years (figuratively speaking). Giving "blanket information about how to beat the system" is just not in the best interest of this forum and it doesn't serve the membership with "honest, reliable information" that they can rely on to be accurate and applicable to their situation. YMMV.

CWtheMan · 01-06-2020, 05:24 PM

People seem to want to inject manufacturing technicalities into vehicle weight threads. It's a moot argument that cannot explain the vehicle manufacturer's decision for certifying a specific GVWR to their vehicles. That GVWR is not set in stone but it's going to cost you to get it changed, because the only ones authorized to change a vehicle certification label are vehicle manufacturers or certified vehicle modifiers.

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