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Old 10-27-2016, 08:01 AM   #21
JRTJH
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Re: Door Post Weight Limits

Here's my "best guess" as to what that "yellow sticker" means: Each component used in the vehicle has a "design rating". Some of those ratings are weight related, some are RPM related, some are power related, but each of those components are designed and manufactured to meet specific criteria.

Then the vehicle is assembled from all of these components to make the "whole". Somewhere, a group of mechanical engineers, automotive engineers and computer engineers formulated a "matrix of design criteria" to come up with a program that takes each individual component into consideration when "calculating" the "vehicle limitations". I'd guess that it's not one specific "weak link" that creates the "yellow sticker" but rather a long list of component limitations that come together to make up that "final yellow sticker number".....

If you consider power ratings in an engine, for example, you'll see that most engines installed by the manufacturer are a "compromise" between maximum power capability and reliability. Each manufacturer must take into account not only power output, but also how long the engine will last at that output, mean time to failure (MTF) and reputation of "future buyers" (among a long list of other considerations). If you look around, you'll see that for every engine that's "stock" there's always an "aftermarket tune" to increase power/performance. Those "tunes" alter the "conservative manufacturer's product" often at the expense of "reliability". So, the manufacturer's "reserve capacity" is being "pushed further" than intended to increase power at the expense of reliability. That modification alters the "reserve capacity" and alters the "design criteria matrix" intended by the manufacturer. What "other components" will be affected by that modification then becomes a question, it's doubtful that "only the engine" is affected since that power increase also puts mechanical stress on the drive line, suspension, tires, and a host of other "unrelated to power" components within that "vehicle" which is composed of a number of parts assembled from stock components.

Back in 2011, Ford introduced the 6.7L diesel engine at 390HP and 735 FT/LB torque. It was the "strongest diesel available in light duty trucks. Then, within weeks, Dodge increased their Cummins rating to "be the best" and Ford countered with an "immediate onboard computer power upgrade" and "reflashed all existing trucks to 400 HP and 800 FT/LB torque. They did that for the purpose of "remaining the most powerful", but they were capable of reflashing all the existing trucks based on "reserve capacity" that was available without risking "mean time to failure" numbers. If you notice, Ford didn't "reflash" again when Dodge and GM upped their diesel outputs, rather in 2015, they changed to a different turbo, upgraded injectors/fuel pump and did a number of "add on mods" to increase the power output. To me, that pretty much indicates that Ford wasn't comfortable increasing the power again, probably because their "reserve capacity and mean time to failure" were "too close for a "reliable, comfortable increase".

Why do I explain all of this? To describe what I think is happening: The manufacturers design vehicle components to meet certain criteria, then they combine all of that criteria to come up with a specific number that the truck "should meet". Once that is computed, they "reduce that maximum" to allow for MTF reliability.

So, I believe that there is very likely a significant "fudge factor" built into the payload rating as it's indicated on the yellow sticker. How much? My guess is that "somebody knows but they ain't talking".....

It's well known that in the case of Ford's 3/4 ton:1 ton trucks, the basic truck is essentially the same and in some situations, an F250 (with snow plow package, camper package) can be "optioned" with heavier components than the "base F350 model" which means, I believe, that you can order an F250 with a "stronger suspension" than you'd get on some F350's. That, to me, indicates that the yellow sticker on that specific F250 would have significantly more "reserve capacity" than a F250 without those added options.

So, my guess: Yes there's a "reserve capacity" that's built into the payload limit. How much? It probably varies from vehicle to vehicle depending on options and component design criteria. Trying to get any manufacturer to give you a "real world limit" is likely to be as rare as "hen's teeth"......
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Old 10-27-2016, 11:34 AM   #22
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Re: Door Post Weight Limits

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Originally Posted by xcntrk View Post
How would that be determined in an post-accident investigation?



All gross violations aside; it's not practical to determine if a vehicle is loaded over the manufacture limit without weighing it. And even then you would need to weigh the TV and trailer separately. But even armed with this information; a prosecution would need to determine fault AND link that fault to towing while over-loaded.


This is what the weight police likes to ignore. Just because you have an accident and was overweight, doesn't mean being overweight caused the accident.




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Old 10-27-2016, 12:44 PM   #23
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Re: Door Post Weight Limits

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This is what the weight police likes to ignore. Just because you have an accident and was overweight, doesn't mean being overweight caused the accident.




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You're absolutely correct, but try proving that to a judge and jury with a "persistent lawyer" edging the entire system to believe that if you'd had a "bigger vehicle" the accident wouldn't have happened and his client would still be alive......

ADDED: In a civil suit (the kind of trial that costs you your life savings but not time in prison) there is no "beyond a shadow of doubt" provision. All the jury has to do is return a "probable cause verdict" (which means more than 51% agree it's your fault). Even with a "million dollar liability policy" today's personal injury and wrongful death lawsuits are ranging in the multi-million dollar range, and once your insurance company pays their limit, the rest comes out of your pocket. If anyone wants to take that risk, then "enjoy". For me, I worked far too many years to risk everything I have by ignoring the "posted yellow sticker payload" on my truck. I'm not inclined to take that much risk at this stage of my life. Possibly others feel differently, that's up to you (or them).

But, the OP asked if there was a "reserve capacity" beyond what's posted on the yellow sticker. So all of this discussion about lawyers, courts, suits, placement of blame or irresponsibility is better discussed in some other thread, not this one as it's "off topic"......
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Old 10-27-2016, 12:50 PM   #24
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Re: Door Post Weight Limits

Ex wt. police checking in.
Not sure I can respond to everything brought up. Start with each state has their own traffic laws MOSTLY. Until vehicle at 26001lbs and higher.
Here state troopers can and do weight any vehicle they seem needs it if they have time and location to do so. So, they do look at vehicles regarding is it maybe over weight or not. Many times it is a no brainer, if it is over loaded and should be checked. I would work near a scale house and have a law that says the driver shell go to the wt. station if directed within several miles. We and I also had portable scales that were carried in a patrol car.
All major crashes that is criminal, maybe criminal, death or near death happen. The vehicle will be inspected. Stuff like weight of each axle just to name it are done. Police look at the vin as that was mentioned will have a max wt. rating and the federal sticker has payload etc. along with the newer vehicles having the yellow sticker. Than look at the tires max. rating and check if they are still inflated how much psi. Those reports are many times 30 to 50 pages of data or more.
Vehicle traveling at over wt. limits can be cited for over loaded vehicle. we normally allowed 1,000 over and that is with the 250s and up. Many 1/2 tones get cited carrying to much fire wood. If vehicle is traveling with 3 or more safety violations, it bumps up to a careless cite. If same vehicle crashes and people are hurt it goes up to a reckless driving crime.
Now than we need to talk criminal and civil law. Police enforce criminal, lawyers civil, as in law suits. A crash with a vehicle used beyond what it is made to do can get you a careless cite maybe 325 dollars. But, lawyers for the injured party will attempt to take your house. And they use the police reports and experts telling the jury what and how your vehicle was rated at, made to do etc. and call you neglect or worst. even if over weight may not be the cause. It will be said it was a factor. Maybe you will win that type of case but, winning will cost more than most can spend. Your insurance company may have to cover you but, likely dump you after. Than try and get good insurance from another top company.
What is the reserve safe weight above that sticker found on the door. No one responsible for that will ever say. Of course there is some and many drive above those limits when towing. Few have major crashes, some just break stuff. I try to limit my personal liability as much as possible. To do so I try to follow all laws no matter what I think of them.
Good topic guys and likely no one person has all the answers.
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Old 10-27-2016, 02:13 PM   #25
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Re: Door Post Weight Limits

Excellent topic and good discussion.

I too think that there are probably reserves built into the numbers on the door and some of the various weight ratings. I think they are put there for a "just in case" situation. I also agree that no one will tell you that because they might as well put a new sticker on the door with no reserve because folks will load to the new number.

To me it's important to stick with those numbers because the reserve capacity for the "just in case" situation might need to come into play one day and I want it there. I don't want to be "against the wall" on limits and have a failure. Plus, when a reserve is acknowledged by a manufacturer there are far too many folks that will then load to that limit...and beyond. Of course, they already do anyway.

I think what's been discussed is about as close as we will ever be on determining exactly where all that stands. Weight police or not, I do believe that folks new to towing need to know what to pay attention to; the GVW, payload, GAWR etc. so they know if they are getting in over their heads. Telling someone new that the stickers don't mean anything and not to worry about it is like putting a grenade in their hand without telling them the pin is pulled to me.

As far as enforcement I've seen one RV pulled over by a state trooper (NM? maybe TX?). He had what appeared to be some sort of portable weight device that he was using on the vehicle/trailer. He was just outside a small town and I was curious so I just drove into town and sat for a few minutes and returned. The trailer was there but there was no truck or trooper. Don't know what the situation was but something happened; a something I don't want happening to me in the middle of nowhere on a long awaited trip.

Since this thread is basically saying, to some, to disregard established limits for vehicles I feel compelled to add a comment.
Following the "rules", abiding by established weight "guidelines" etc. are personal decisions. They are decisions made, hopefully, with the welfare of that person's family and others in mind. That said, when you choose to deviate from established safe guidelines you risk catastrophic consequences. And this is how it goes when it happens; in the blink of an eye. You can't walk back a bad decision, rethink, pray, say whoops or anything else. Every terrible thing that has happened to me was in the blink of an eye. Driving down a country road at 10 mph on a motorcycle visiting with the guy next to you and wake up in the ICU with a 50% chance to live. Sitting in the back seat of a vehicle and waking up with 4 dead people and your head wedged between the edge of the seat and the door. A man stepping in front of a vehicle in the dark and goes flying in the air. I have several more personal examples. None foreseen. All over before you have a second to even know what's happening. In these instances there was no cognizant breaking of the rules...just fate. When knowingly disregarding established safety requirements you only hasten, or enhance, the possibilities of things like this happening. And again, you won't be able to re-think it or undo it.....it just happens....right now, and then you deal with it....if you or your loved ones are still there to do so.
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Old 10-27-2016, 04:58 PM   #26
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Re: Door Post Weight Limits

I bought a new F250 4x4 6.7 to tow our previous camper. My wife saw a new 5er we had to have soon after. The F250 met every number except payload. Loaded ready to go we were 1000 - 1100# over payload. No squat and pulled just great. When the F250 was 6 months and 11 days old I drove away in a new F350 with a few more options. I'm legal and have done everything to protect my property, passengers, and the public. If we can afford our toys we can afford to play as responsible adults. Pulling above weight limits is irresponsible and in the unlikely situation a lawyer bites an irresponsible adult hard ~~ oh well. Most would not think of driving impaired by alcohol or drugs but think driving an impaired vehicle is different. If I'm on the jury, I see both situations the same.
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Old 10-27-2016, 05:19 PM   #27
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Re: Door Post Weight Limits

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Originally Posted by CaptnJohn View Post
I bought a new F250 4x4 6.7 to tow our previous camper. My wife saw a new 5er we had to have soon after. The F250 met every number except payload. Loaded ready to go we were 1000 - 1100# over payload. No squat and pulled just great. When the F250 was 6 months and 11 days old I drove away in a new F350 with a few more options. I'm legal and have done everything to protect my property, passengers, and the public. If we can afford our toys we can afford to play as responsible adults. Pulling above weight limits is irresponsible and in the unlikely situation a lawyer bites an irresponsible adult hard ~~ oh well. Most would not think of driving impaired by alcohol or drugs but think driving an impaired vehicle is different. If I'm on the jury, I see both situations the same.

I agree with the above ^^^x4
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Old 10-27-2016, 05:23 PM   #28
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Re: Door Post Weight Limits

This has covered a lot of territory. Many people who I greatly respect have weighed (no pun intended) in and given some very well thought out answers and opinions. I believe this conversation has moved the topic forward in a positive way.

Bottom line, it's not about lawyers or insurance. It's about personal and public safety. And that takes personal responsibility(PR). Reality says some will do this and some won't. But when we take the time to teach why it's important to use PR, then the chances are that it will happen. That's a good thing and a preferred outcome. If we just yell and go nuclear about weight, we lose. There is, fortunately some wiggle room, but not much.

It would be best if we all used the weights posted as our goal. That way, we all will be safe.

Happy trails.

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Old 10-27-2016, 05:32 PM   #29
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Re: Door Post Weight Limits

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This has covered a lot of territory. Many people who I greatly respect have weighed (no pun intended) in and given some very well thought out answers and opinions. I believe this conversation has moved the topic forward in a positive way.

Bottom line, it's not about lawyers or insurance. It's about personal and public safety. And that takes personal responsibility(PR). Reality says some will do this and some won't. But when we take the time to teach why it's important to use PR, then the chances are that it will happen. That's a good thing and a preferred outcome. If we just yell and go nuclear about weight, we lose. There is, fortunately some wiggle room, but not much.

It would be best if we all used the weights posted as our goal. That way, we all will be safe.

Happy trails.

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I totally agree with your summation. As the OP you posed a very good question; one that makes folks think about what they/we are doing and it received some very good feedback IMO. Having been in the "weight challenged" area before, and being sick every time I hooked up the trailer, I know what it's like to bite the bullet to try to be safe. It would be my wish that all would pay attention to those details and protect themselves and their loved ones.
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Old 10-27-2016, 05:59 PM   #30
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Re: Door Post Weight Limits

I didn't understand the OP's intent at first but I do now. It is a good question. As I understand it he wants to know if the maximums have a built safety margin. Neither of us want or plan to exceed those maximums. Just interested in knowing if we can safely operate at or just below them. In the military they set limits with built in margins of safety. Are these maximums the same? Thanks.


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Old 10-27-2016, 06:04 PM   #31
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Re: Door Post Weight Limits

I think the subject was pretty much discussed. Read the entire thread and it will answer your question....more or less I think??
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Old 10-27-2016, 06:16 PM   #32
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Re: Door Post Weight Limits

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I think the subject was pretty much discussed. Read the entire thread and it will answer your question....more or less I think??


Thanks. I think my system had a burp. I didn't see all the responses when I posted. I do now.


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Old 11-20-2016, 04:01 AM   #33
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Re: Door Post Weight Limits

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Probably going to stir the poo pot up just a little, but hey, isn't that what forums are for? Well, at least some of the posts I read that seems to be the intent!

This is an honest question that I'm hoping someone will know the answer to. If you want to speculate or give an IMHO answer go for it, but state it is IMO.

Question: are the weights posted on the sticker an absolute value that cannot/should not be exceeded or are they an estimate with a little wiggle room built in to account for Bubba who will exceed the numbers?

I ask because many things have a fudge factor built in. Take medication expiration dates for example. Almost all meds are still usable 1 year after the posted expiration date, per a Department of Defense study. So I wonder are the weight stickers similar?

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To answer the OP real question, yes there is a fudge factor, and depending what you are driving as a TV the fudge factor may be big or small.
so think logically a 250/2500 has a larger fudge factor than a 350/3500.
The reason is that 99% of the running gear is shared between the 2500/250's and 3500/350's. The only reason a 2500/250 exist is to provide a tax and registration break for the owner, with the Class 2 GVWR limit of 10,000#.

While the beloved "Yellow Payload Sticker" is great for comparison of carrying capacity on the dealers lot, once off the lot it is of little use.

The yellow sticker only has the required tire psi to carry the MAX GVWR, and the payload. It also has tire size and rating required to carry the rated GVWR, this information is also on the VIN sticker. What is on the VIN sticker that is NOT on the yellow sticker is the GVWR and GAWR front and rear!
Today's new trucks run GVWR that are far closer to the total of the GAWR than in the past. What that means is that one can possibly exceed the rear GAWR, and still be within the total payload number and GVWR.

Myself have a TV with a 8,800# GVWR and a total GAWR of 11,284. That is already a 2,484# reserve, but the truck also has a Camper Package. The camper package included larger tires with more capacirt, and a heaver spring package, instead of 3,084# tires, the larger tires have a 3,415# rating. In 2001 this was not reflected in the GVWR, nor the rear GAWR.
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Old 11-20-2016, 04:23 AM   #34
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Re: Door Post Weight Limits

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I would say that GVWR is a hard, officially certified number which should not be exceeded, there are laws in many states against it.
The sum of axle ratings may be slightly higher than GVWR but its difficult to exceed axle weights unless weight distribution is poor or nonexistent or the vehicle is grossly overloaded.
Cargo carrying capacity may or may not have some wiggle room, it depends on the manufacturer, presence of aftermarket or optional equipment. Knowing your actual weights is important.
Towing capacity is marketing tool, mostly meaningless.
Lawyers will suck out your insurance coverage to the limit regardless of the fault, at least in my state. This is what they do for living.
Thank you for the informational about florida.
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Old 11-20-2016, 04:46 AM   #35
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Re: Door Post Weight Limits

I know on my 2500 the 20 inch OME tires are the weak link . There almost new but that doesn't make it right . Chevy with the 20,s make it hard to fit higher pay load. Discount tires swear I can put 285/60/20 with pay load of 3650 a nice step up from the 3150 stock OME tires. MY year Duramax that was one way chevy downed the GVW ,The spare tire is is 18 inch I cant remember the size but its the same fit as the OME 20, the 18 has load range of 3650 lbs.
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Old 11-20-2016, 07:30 AM   #36
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Re: Door Post Weight Limits

I am not an engineer.

IMO, engineers design components and complete structures to be more robust than the stated ratings in order to have a margin for failure. What the particular margin is depends on the structure itself.

If you exceed the posted limits by a limited amount (and that amount is certainly unknown by the consumer) you will not break anything or lose control. The legal and moral aspect of doing that has already been expressed more than once on this forum, so I won't revisit those concerns. (You're welcome )
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Old 11-21-2016, 06:52 PM   #37
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Re: Door Post Weight Limits

I look at ratings this way. First, the manufacturers all try to outdo each other so the more payload or GVWR they can claim the better. They will push them to the limits to claim they are better than the competition. The question is what is the limit they are willing to push? Are they pushing the limit of one time use and it'll break? No. Every time you load your truck up, parts are stressed. The manufacturer builds our trucks to handle the limits they put on them day in and day out. So no, a one time overload (within reason) isn't going to create a breakdown. The more you do it, the greater your chances of failure. I wouldn't say the manufacturers build in fluff room to protect us from ourselves, they do it for long term safety and reliability.

With that said..I don't believe in overloading, ever. As already mentioned by several people, I like to keep what I've worked for and we all know what lawyers do. Take that and the fact that the majority of drivers on the road do not like bigger vehicles pulling trailers, your majority jury is easy to convince it's your fault. Just look at how many commercials are out there from law firms going after big rig drivers. The typical driver, juror is not an expert and can easily be put into the shoes of the "victim" to see how irresponsible "we" are with our heavy trailers.
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Old 11-21-2016, 09:58 PM   #38
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Re: Door Post Weight Limits

This is from a NHTSA Q&A PDF about overloaded RVs. I post this to highlight the info about GVWR. I cannot find a “fudge factor” in “must not be exceeded”.

“The FMVSS have requirements for the manufacturer to use proper tires and rims for the gross axle weight rating (GAWR) and the gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR). The manufacturer may determine the GVWR by adding cargo capacity (if any) to the curb weight of the vehicle as manufactured. The wise consumer, before purchase, will determine if the vehicle has sufficient cargo capacity to carry the weight of water, additional equipment (such as televisions, and microwave ovens), and luggage. The manufacturer’s certification label must show the GVWR. The GVWR must not be exceeded by overloading the vehicle. There is little the government can do to assist a consumer who has purchased a vehicle that has insufficient cargo capacity for its intended use.”
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Old 11-22-2016, 06:24 AM   #39
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Re: Door Post Weight Limits

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Originally Posted by roadglide View Post
I know on my 2500 the 20 inch OME tires are the weak link . There almost new but that doesn't make it right . Chevy with the 20,s make it hard to fit higher pay load. Discount tires swear I can put 285/60/20 with pay load of 3650 a nice step up from the 3150 stock OME tires. MY year Duramax that was one way chevy downed the GVW ,The spare tire is is 18 inch I cant remember the size but its the same fit as the OME 20, the 18 has load range of 3650 lbs.
Check out the Nitto's if you can get them in the wheel well they have some good weight ratings. I run a 295 60 20 G2, 3750lb's plenty of reserve capacity on a 20" wheel.

http://www.nittotire.com/light-truck...ht-truck-tire/

I'm actually more limited by my wheel's at 3500 LB's Each

https://www.racelinewheels.com/p-924...-hd-8-lug.aspx
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Old 11-23-2016, 11:02 AM   #40
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Re: Door Post Weight Limits

I run Nitto "trail grapplers "in the size 285/75/R18 with a load range at 4080# at 80 psi. They seem to work pretty well!
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