Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×
 

Go Back   Keystone RV Forums > Keystone Tech Forums > Repairs & Maintenance
Click Here to Login

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 02-18-2020, 01:05 PM   #41
Keystoned
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: abq, nm, usa
Posts: 373
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRTJH View Post
First, I've NEVER seen a beige EPDM roof on any Outback. The EPDM roofing material used on Outback trailers is white. The last EPDM membrane I've seen on any Outback is in model year 2012, although I heard that some trailers were produced in 2013 with EPDM. All of the 2014 and newer Outbacks that I've seen have all had TPO membrane on the roof. The ONLY beige roofing material I've ever seen is TPO.

That said, you can pull the plastic molding from the bathroom exhaust fan (4 #2 Roberts screws) and you'll find the roofing material stapled to the wooden framing for the exhaust fan. Pull the couple of staples and you can see the back side of the roofing membrane. If the membrane is BLACK with a white coating on top, it's EPDM. If the roofing membrane is the same color on both sides, it's TPO. Easy to check and be certain what is on your trailer, however, there is virtually no difference in the sealant used for EPDM and TPO membrane patching. Both can be used, but the EPDM sealant has a "tad bit more dispersant agent" in it. That is the agent that keeps the sealant "pliable and flowing" from the tube. As soon as it is applied, the dispersant begins to evaporate. The additional dispersant can (not will) cause the TPO membrane to swell slightly. Once the dispersant evaporates, there is no difference in the two sealants. However, the TPO membrane "MIGHT" (not will) bulge and/or "ripple" from the additional dispersant.

The "rippling" is cosmetic only, there is NO damage to the membrane function, so there is no reason to "fear" using either type of DICOR sealant on either type of membrane.....

That said, if the silicone was applied over the DICOR sealant, then using a plastic scraper you can remove all of the silicone by removing the DICOR under it. Then, apply a fresh layer of DICOR (or Alpha-Systems) self leveling sealant, being sure to apply the new coating to FULLY cover the old coating and also overlap the edge margins by about 3/8" or 1/2" on all edges. That overlapping will provide for a fresh adhesion beyond where the old layer was applied. This is one time when "more is better". As the sealant cures, it will flatten and level itself to fully cover all of the old sealant surface PLUS overlap to fresh areas, completely sealing the entire surface.

If there is no mechanical damage to the area, the above should be all you need to do. If there is damage to the TPO membrane or to the "joiner strip" between the roof and the front cap, then you'll need to work on that before applying any sealant. My guess is that if the screws are intact, tight and there is no visible damage, then the joiner strip "should" be OK. In that case, all you'll need to do is spend "lots of sweat-equity" in removing all the old silicone, a portion of the underlying DICOR sealant (so you know all the silicone is removed) and then clean thoroughly, apply new sealant and wait for it to cure (48 hours or so)… However, it will be "sticky and roll under your finger" for probably 6-8 weeks after application...
Thanks for the above info. Same color both sides, so TPO.
Does not appear to have damage to TPO, joiner strip or screws, see pix. Sorry about the shadow, sun on the wrong side now. Without the shadow you would see that dirt has made its way to the edge of the metal strip.
There was mostly a very thin skin of silicon except at the corner.
Question; does the dicor need to butt up against the strip, which is under the 'rubber' cover? Seems like there should be dicor there first, then replace the rubber strip down into the dicor, then more dicor along that joint.
This is on the right side almost midway. The corner needs the most goop.
The edge on the back side seems okay even though there is some silicon that is adhered very well and might not be worth it to remove.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	20200218_135549.jpg
Views:	215
Size:	186.8 KB
ID:	25220   Click image for larger version

Name:	20200218_135652.jpg
Views:	289
Size:	171.5 KB
ID:	25221  
__________________
Dan and Rita
Prefer not to be hooked up in a RV park
Keystoned is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2020, 06:32 AM   #42
Keystoned
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: abq, nm, usa
Posts: 373
So the Dicor website says that TPO should use their ultra sealant 2 part system...pretty sure that is not what is on my roof and I can't really find much info on it. I'll check into Alpha systems also.
I'm also thinking that self leveling stuff can't be used on the problem corner especially as it becomes vertical.
I'm going to buy repair product today, so more advice would be appreciated this morning, please.
__________________
Dan and Rita
Prefer not to be hooked up in a RV park
Keystoned is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2020, 07:12 AM   #43
sourdough
Site Team
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: W. Texas
Posts: 17,600
From everything I've read and done regular Dicor will work fine on the TPO roof. You would use non self leveling on the vertical seams.

https://www.keystoneforums.com/forum...ad.php?t=23265

https://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/f...print/true.cfm

Or you could try to find the ultra sealant and use it:

__________________
Danny and Susan, wife of 56 years
2019 Ram 3500 Laramie CC SWB SB 6.4 4x4 4.10
2020 Montana High Country 331RL
sourdough is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2020, 07:24 AM   #44
Keystoned
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: abq, nm, usa
Posts: 373
Thanks. Looks like the ultra sealant is best for a virgin surface. I will be applying over existing dicor, which probably caused the wavy look to begin with, so dicor goop is on the list.
__________________
Dan and Rita
Prefer not to be hooked up in a RV park
Keystoned is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2020, 08:02 AM   #45
JRTJH
Site Team
 
JRTJH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Gaylord
Posts: 26,841
When Alpha Systems first started producing TPO roofing material for installation on RV's, they were a "membrane only producer"... Their literature recommended using DICOR sealant products to complete the installation. Later on, after they were established, they started producing their own line of sealants. When they came out, the "recommendation for sealant use" changed from DICOR to Alpha Systems brand. That should tell you all you need to know about the "interchangeability of recommended sealants"...

The above said, there is a difference in the amount of naphtha (the chemical liquid used to keep the sealant flowing from the tube) that is contained in the EPDM sealant and the TPO sealant. Naphtha is essentially a "quick evaporating solvent" that can cause "bulging and swelling" to the TPO membrane with prolonged exposure. THERE IS NO DAMAGE TO THE TPO, JUST SWELLING AND COSMETIC CHANGES IN THE SURFACE.....

Both DICOR and Alpha Systems produce sealant containing reduced naphtha for TPO membrane. DICOR also produces sealant for EPDM membrane. BOTH sealants will work and will produce the same sealing capacity. The sealant with more naphtha "MIGHT" cause some swelling/bulging/rippling in the TPO membrane along the edges of the sealant bead. The "TPO sealant" causes less disfiguring because it contains less naphtha, but a thick, heavy coat of TPO sealant will cause the same swelling if applied thick enough and the weather conditions are right to delay evaporation of the naphtha in the sealant. Otherwise, there's no difference and either sealant can be used "interchangeably on either roof surface"...

It's a "marketing ploy" to keep profits high or a "don't use their product, use ours" statement.

You can think of the difference in EPDM vs TPO sealant formulation as using premium gas in a vehicle set up to use regular gas. Either can be used and no harm done with a tank of either.....

As for using Alpha Systems vs DICOR sealant formulation for TPO roofing, that's the same as using BP vs Shell or Exxon regular gas in a vehicle, there's virtually no difference with any product if it's fresh, not expired and used correctly.
__________________
John



2015 F250 6.7l 4x4
2014 Cougar X Lite 27RKS
JRTJH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2020, 08:16 AM   #46
Keystoned
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: abq, nm, usa
Posts: 373
Thanks again. So should I lay a bead against the metal under the cover, followed by a bead against the cover?
__________________
Dan and Rita
Prefer not to be hooked up in a RV park
Keystoned is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2020, 09:29 AM   #47
JRTJH
Site Team
 
JRTJH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Gaylord
Posts: 26,841
I'd suspect that there is a 1" strip of butyl putty tape between the two layers, they are "screwed together and then self-leveling sealant is applied VERY LIBERALLY over the entire seam, likely overlapping at least 2" on each side of the joint. That's a total of 4" of sealant width.

That said, is there an aluminum joiner strip at the union? On most, there's a joiner strip that overlays the roof decking, the TPO membrane and the front cap material. That joiner strip adds rigidity, protects the TPO membrane and provides a waterproof seal over the entire structure.
__________________
John



2015 F250 6.7l 4x4
2014 Cougar X Lite 27RKS
JRTJH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2020, 01:38 PM   #48
Keystoned
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: abq, nm, usa
Posts: 373
Without a sketch or drawing I'm sure I am using the wrong words. So, going from front to rear you have the front 'plastic fairing' that sees the wind as you drive along. On top, between the fairing and the TPO membrane there is a black strip less than an inch wide and half that high. Under that there is a metal strip with screws holding it down.
When I removed the uneven silicone and dicor behind the black strip, the rear of the strip could be lifted to see the metal strip with screws. Since water had got under there you can see some dirt up against the metal strip.
I thought I would blow it out and wipe it down followed by a bead of dicor against the metal strip under the black cover strip. Then push the black strip down into the dicor bead and run another liberal bead between the black strip and existing dicor.
Are we on the same page now?
__________________
Dan and Rita
Prefer not to be hooked up in a RV park
Keystoned is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2020, 05:00 PM   #49
sourdough
Site Team
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: W. Texas
Posts: 17,600
I would call the fairing the front cap. I would call that black strip the "transition" strip. Over the top of that transition strip is there a soft, pliable rubber cover that sort of slips into the edges to cover the screws through the metal strip? Can you work that rubber strip off or is it just a plain strip with screws covered in "goop"? Is the transition strip all one piece or ??

I'm thinking clean everything up and get the stuff off as much as possible. Pull that transition strip off (remove those screws). Assess what damage has been done to the underlying roof. Use that butyl tape John mentioned to bridge between the cap and TPO. Drop the transition strip back and put the screws back through the strip into the roof and tighten to compress the butyl - don't strip the screws. Replace the rubber strip if it has one. Apply the dicor liberally down both edges of the strip (the butyl will take care of underneath) and over the screws if they aren't covered. If you want you could still cover the screws even if they have the rubber cover since you've had so much trouble/damage.

Without seeing it that's what I'm thinking so you can get it done, get on the road and not worry about it.
__________________
Danny and Susan, wife of 56 years
2019 Ram 3500 Laramie CC SWB SB 6.4 4x4 4.10
2020 Montana High Country 331RL
sourdough is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2020, 05:42 PM   #50
Gegrad
Senior Member
 
Gegrad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Monroeville
Posts: 1,548
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keystoned View Post
So the Dicor website says that TPO should use their ultra sealant 2 part system...pretty sure that is not what is on my roof and I can't really find much info on it. I'll check into Alpha systems also.
I'm also thinking that self leveling stuff can't be used on the problem corner especially as it becomes vertical.
I'm going to buy repair product today, so more advice would be appreciated this morning, please.
You can buy the Alpha Systems self leveling sealant on Amazon. That is what I use on my TPO roof.
__________________
2014 Bullet Premier 29bh in Charocal
2019 Ram 2500 HD 4x4, CC, 6.4L
2011 Passport 2510RB (Sold)
Gegrad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2020, 08:21 AM   #51
sonofcy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Qualicum Beach
Posts: 555
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keystoned View Post
I am getting so pissed by what I am finding. I have a running list that is wearing me down but just noticed the bed was wet. We had rain and snow the day before so I'm thinking a leak near where the roof meets the cap. I didn't actually see the water path but there is evidence that this has been going on for a while. The wrapping has come loose and torn around some of the 'wood' pieces above the bed and closet.
So looking on the roof it appears a repair had been attempted before, with silicone! The PO swears up and down there were no leaks and everything worked and I'm calling BS. They are either ignorant, dumb or lying, maybe all 3.
Anyway. The silicone points to that joint and other areas where it was used.
Advice on repair is appreciated...
A leak between the cap and roof is probably the most common. You need to seal the joint on the roof. I would use eternabond tape but a few on here will bitch that it is too permanent. I have a way to deal with that. The alternative is self levelling dicor, LOTS of it in a wide path over the joint.
sonofcy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2020, 08:46 AM   #52
Badbart56
Senior Member
 
Badbart56's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: USA and Canada
Posts: 870
While I know it's a Cardinal sin to use silicone ANYWHERE on an RV.....this is the product that was applied on my Fusion 405 approximately 3 years ago.


https://gaco.com/new-solution-rv-roof-restoration/


The company that did it is in Warner Robbins, Georgia and they guarantee it for life. They have done hundreds of RV's, many with prior roof damage and/or leaks. Just putting it out there that it appears there may be other options than just the "we've always done it this way" rule. Go ahead with the firestorm of opinions....

https://macon.craigslist.org/rvs/d/w...070393996.html
__________________


2010 FZ 405

2011 F350 6.7 Dually w/Banks Power making 510 hp and 1065 ft/lbs torque
Badbart56 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2020, 10:09 AM   #53
fulltilt
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: duncan bc
Posts: 21
Hi Dan Hi Rita
It may interest you to go to the Dutchmens Forum site, & look up Roof Membrane Replacement. I replaced the roof on my 5th wheel last year & documented it...the pictures may help you better understand what you are dealing with, such as rotating the nose cap forward. I hope it will be of some help to you. Your email address & password for this forum will also work on the Dutchmen site.
fulltilt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2020, 10:10 AM   #54
firestation12
Senior Member
 
firestation12's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Cotulla, TX
Posts: 459
I feel for your situation. I’ll defer to the expert comment you’ve received so far to repair the roof. My comment is to share a technique for repairing the wrinkles on the interior trim veneer. Yours appears extreme, but some can be repaired using a clothes steamer, wood glue and careful preening. Good luck.
firestation12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2020, 12:29 PM   #55
Keystoned
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: abq, nm, usa
Posts: 373
Quote:
Originally Posted by fulltilt View Post
Hi Dan Hi Rita
It may interest you to go to the Dutchmens Forum site, & look up Roof Membrane Replacement. I replaced the roof on my 5th wheel last year & documented it...the pictures may help you better understand what you are dealing with, such as rotating the nose cap forward. I hope it will be of some help to you. Your email address & password for this forum will also work on the Dutchmen site.
Found it, quite impressive. I hope mine is much easier.
So the membrane is stretched over a vertical wall and held somehow before the cap is laid upon that and both are held down with the metal strip and screws with butyl tape underneath?
__________________
Dan and Rita
Prefer not to be hooked up in a RV park
Keystoned is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2020, 12:33 PM   #56
Keystoned
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: abq, nm, usa
Posts: 373
Quote:
Originally Posted by sourdough View Post
I would call the fairing the front cap. I would call that black strip the "transition" strip. Over the top of that transition strip is there a soft, pliable rubber cover that sort of slips into the edges to cover the screws through the metal strip? Can you work that rubber strip off or is it just a plain strip with screws covered in "goop"? Is the transition strip all one piece or ??

I'm thinking clean everything up and get the stuff off as much as possible. Pull that transition strip off (remove those screws). Assess what damage has been done to the underlying roof. Use that butyl tape John mentioned to bridge between the cap and TPO. Drop the transition strip back and put the screws back through the strip into the roof and tighten to compress the butyl - don't strip the screws. Replace the rubber strip if it has one. Apply the dicor liberally down both edges of the strip (the butyl will take care of underneath) and over the screws if they aren't covered. If you want you could still cover the screws even if they have the rubber cover since you've had so much trouble/damage.

Without seeing it that's what I'm thinking so you can get it done, get on the road and not worry about it.
Sorry for the slow response. Had to take my sister to an appointment and visit my mom in rehab this morning. I'll be checking it out closer this afternoon but the black strip is the rubber screw cover, which I only tilted forward last time. It probably comes off to reveal the metal strip which is held down by the screws.
I'll report back later on what I find.
__________________
Dan and Rita
Prefer not to be hooked up in a RV park
Keystoned is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2020, 12:34 PM   #57
Keystoned
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: abq, nm, usa
Posts: 373
Quote:
Originally Posted by firestation12 View Post
I feel for your situation. I’ll defer to the expert comment you’ve received so far to repair the roof. My comment is to share a technique for repairing the wrinkles on the interior trim veneer. Yours appears extreme, but some can be repaired using a clothes steamer, wood glue and careful preening. Good luck.
Thanks, I might have to re-wrap the visible parts. The stuff in the closet, not so much.
__________________
Dan and Rita
Prefer not to be hooked up in a RV park
Keystoned is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2020, 12:36 PM   #58
Keystoned
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: abq, nm, usa
Posts: 373
Thanks to everyone who has responded to my plight. Hoping to have several things fixed within a month to go fishing on a maiden trip...
__________________
Dan and Rita
Prefer not to be hooked up in a RV park
Keystoned is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2020, 01:17 PM   #59
Keystoned
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: abq, nm, usa
Posts: 373
So here is the culprit corner, I think.
Were they supposed to wrap the metal strap around the bend? It kind sticks straight out instead of following the curve.
I suspect there was not enough goop stuffed in this area and I am hesitant to unscrew the metal strap and allow the cap to shift...
It looks like the factory used silicone for the cap to rubber cover interface, which seems to have held up good. Remember, my leak was with the trailer stationary and level, not moving. I have not moved it but about a mile since I bought it, on a clear day.
If you look at that corner in post #41, there are a bunch of wrinkles where it bunches up and maybe the sealant didn't get in there good enough?
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	20200220_141129.jpg
Views:	184
Size:	233.3 KB
ID:	25256  
__________________
Dan and Rita
Prefer not to be hooked up in a RV park
Keystoned is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2020, 01:44 PM   #60
rlh1957
Senior Member
 
rlh1957's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 518
Points are made to remove silicone. That means all traces of silicone, don't just razor peel it off. The surface has to be chemically cleaned back to virgin material or the Dicor will not have a good bond. There is no where on the roof where silicone should be used.
__________________

2020 Cougar Half Ton 29RKS Fifth Wheel
2019 F350 4WD Lariat SRW 6.7 Diesel Super Duty
Anderson Ultimate 5th Wheel Hitch - JT Strongarm TST509 TPMS- 2200W(8)Solar Panels - 600AH BattleBorn Lithium Batteries. 3000W Victron MultiPlus Inverter
SoftStartRV on both AC’s - Predator 3500 generator
rlh1957 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
leak, roof

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by the Keystone RV Company or any of its affiliates in any way. Keystone RV® is a registered trademark of the Keystone RV Company.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:51 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.