Tongue Weight

[jasin1]

Good luck my friend… nobody is responding with any bad feelings towards you..they just want you and those around you (including in traffic around you) to be safe.

And there is always at least one person who will say you are fine and not to listen to these naysayers …a lot of times these people are motivated by wanting to draw attention to themselves and to upset the apple cart to be different and special in their own mind.
They usually go against all conventional wisdom and experience with little to back it up other then to insult anyone that questions them

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by BCBorn

I have a document from the the scale staff and it says Front and Rear GAWR's added together will always be greater than the GVWR. but you cannot exceed any of the three ratings (Axle 1, 2, 3) which I'm not.

REREAD THAT DOCUMENT FROM THE SCALE STAFF....

What it says (and I haven't read it) is that the RAWR and FAWR will always be greater than the GVWR.

That is true on any vehicle. Automotive engineering "mandates" that the sum of the two axle ratings always is greater than the GVWR of the vehicle. That's so you can load the bed of a truck and still sit in the driver's seat without exceeding the front axle rating. It's called "load varability" and is an "engineered in compensation"...

That document DOES NOT say that the front axle weight when added to the rear axle weight can exceed the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating. It says the "ratings" will exceed the GVW rating... Not that the "Axle weights can exceed the GVW rating.....

[flybouy]

It's not a Chinese menu where you pick one from column A and one from column B. You cannot exceed ANY of the maximum numbers, that's why they are maximum or gross. The 2 axle ratings are different to keep someone from overloading them but that doesn't imply that they are cumulative. The max vehichle weight is the maximum weight for the vehichle as a systen, including the frame and driveline components that connect those 2 axles.

What I don’t understand is how you are still arguing about this. Do you think everyone is just BS you to get their jollies? It's been explained about every way I know, perhzps you can do some more research on the internet and find some more eloquent explanations that make it clearer.

[BCBorn]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

REREAD THAT DOCUMENT FROM THE SCALE STAFF....

What it says (and I haven't read it) is that the RAWR and FAWR will always be greater than the GVWR.

That is true on any vehicle. Automotive engineering "mandates" that the sum of the two axle ratings always is greater than the GVWR of the vehicle. That's so you can load the bed of a truck and still sit in the driver's seat without exceeding the front axle rating. It's called "load varability" and is an "engineered in compensation"...

That document DOES NOT say that the front axle weight when added to the rear axle weight can exceed the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating. It says the "ratings" will exceed the GVW rating... Not that the "Axle weights can exceed the GVW rating.....

See Attachment, sorry I'm not getting it. removing 10 lbs from front or rear axle reading would put me in compliance here, I guess

[CWtheMan]

The bottom line: Once the vehicle belongs to a consumer that consumer is 100% responsible for all tongue weight loads.

Weights, what are they? The vehicle manufacturer’s tongue weight is a product of vehicle certification and not an earmark weight for future reference for future tongue weight loads. Here is the reference for the subject vehicle : FMVSS 571.110 Paragraph: S9.2 On RV trailers, the sum of the GAWRs of all axles on the vehicle plus the vehicle manufacturer's recommended tongue weight must not be less than the GVWR.

Shipping weight is not an official weigh. It is the manufacturers prepared weight for transportation.

Dry weight/UVW is the weight deducted from the vehicle GVWR that determines initial vehicle load capacity. The manufacturer’s GVW includes the weight of the entire propane system including full tanks/bottles. Ref: FMVSS 571.110 Paragraph: S9.3.2 The weight of full propane tanks must be included in the RV's UVW.

FMVSS 571.110 is a lengthy description of how vehicle cargo labels are finalized. This is an excerpt: S10. Weight added to vehicles between final vehicle certification and first retail sale of the vehicle. My words…When between final vehicle certification and first retail sale an item or items totaling more than 100# are added the cargo label must be amended by the dealer. So, when and if the dealer adds a house battery less than 100# it is not reportable.

Regulations and standards are not going to tell a consumer how to load their vehicles. They provide the limits and it’s the consumers’ responsibility to not exceed those limits. Throughout the whole process it is mentioned that any water carried in the built-in tanks (fresh, gray & black) is GARGO.

(The bottom line in the attachment in the previous post tells it all).

[JRTJH]

In your photo, as I said in my post, the statement at the bottom of page 2 says, "The front and rear GAWR's added together will always be greater than the GVWR"

LOOK AT THAT STATEMENT: They are talking about RATINGS (not weights)...

In other words, the front axle and the rear axle will always be "built stronger" than the entire vehicle....

That photo says nothing about the axle weights can be greater than .....

It says the RATINGS will be greater than. You still can not exceed any of the three, and in your weight ticket, you're under on two, but exceed the third by 10 pounds.... Hitching to a heavier trailer will cause you to exceed the third by a greater amount than you already do.... There's no "helium in Keystone trailers" even though they advertise "helium technology to build light weight trailers".....

Simply put, you're currently overweight, towing a larger, heavier trailer will make you more overweight. The 199ML is too heavy for your truck.

[BCBorn]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

In your photo, as I said in my post, the statement at the bottom of page 2 says, "The front and rear GAWR's added together will always be greater than the GVWR"

LOOK AT THAT STATEMENT: They are talking about RATINGS (not weights)...

In other words, the front axle and the rear axle will always be "built stronger" than the entire vehicle....

That photo says nothing about the axle weights can be greater than .....

It says the RATINGS will be greater than. You still can not exceed any of the three, and in your weight ticket, you're under on two, but exceed the third by 10 pounds.... Hitching to a heavier trailer will cause you to exceed the third by a greater amount than you already do.... There's no "helium in Keystone trailers" even though they advertise "helium technology to build light weight trailers".....

Simply put, you're currently overweight, towing a larger, heavier trailer will make you more overweight. The 199ML is too heavy for your truck.

Ok thanks

My Dutchman was supposed to weight of 3254 and have a tongue weight of 266 lb. Guess that was off by a ton.

[CWtheMan]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

In your photo, as I said in my post, the statement at the bottom of page 2 says, "The front and rear GAWR's added together will always be greater than the GVWR"

LOOK AT THAT STATEMENT: They are talking about RATINGS (not weights)...

In other words, the front axle and the rear axle will always be "built stronger" than the entire vehicle....

That photo says nothing about the axle weights can be greater than .....

It says the RATINGS will be greater than. You still can not exceed any of the three, and in your weight ticket, you're under on two, but exceed the third by 10 pounds.... Hitching to a heavier trailer will cause you to exceed the third by a greater amount than you already do.... There's no "helium in Keystone trailers" even though they advertise "helium technology to build light weight trailers".....

Simply put, you're currently overweight, towing a larger, heavier trailer will make you more overweight. The 199ML is too heavy for your truck.

"The front and rear GAWR's added together will always be greater than the GVWR"

The automotive industry must provide load capacity reserves so they do some of it with GAWRs. The rest may be done with tire load capacity's.

The RV trailer industry does not have to provide load capacity reserves with GAWRs and you will find that almost all older trailers (2015 an earlier) will have GAWRs less than GVWR because the tongue weight on trailers is part of the trailer weight equation.

Anyhow, GVWR is the ultimate limiter. If you put it on the scales and it's over GVWR you need to down load something.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by BCBorn

Ok thanks

My Dutchman was supposed to weight of 3254 and have a tongue weight of 266 lb. Guess that was off by a ton.

"Supposed to weigh"? Supposed to have a tongue weight? If/when you don't know you use the published numbers and the others provided to you. If you can't scale the proposed combo you MUST use the established GVWs/payload/axle ratings to guesstimate.....OR just fly blind and confused. How the numbers work has been explained far, far more times than needed. It isn't that difficult.

[travelin texans]

Originally Posted by BCBorn

Ok thanks

My Dutchman was supposed to weight of 3254 and have a tongue weight of 266 lb. Guess that was off by a ton.

Don't know if that "supposed to weight" was the dry weight or GVWR, but 3254 lbs x 13% = 610 lbs tongue weight subtracted directly from the 1000 lb payload of your Taco. IIRC you stated the people & pets in your truck weighed 400 lbs so again there's 10 lbs over that weight before you account for the weight of the hitch which is another 50-100lbs.
There's no way that truck with a 1000lb payload is safely capable of towing a 4500-5000 lb GVWR RV even if you were to weigh every ounce that goes into it & remove ounce for ounce anything more you add into it.
This subject could go on for ever til you understand that you want/have too much rv &/or not enough truck. Your choices are simple, chose less RV or more truck, it's as simple as that! I don't know how it could be explained more clearly than in all the previous post from most likely a couple hundred years of combined towing experiences.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by BCBorn

Ok thanks

My Dutchman was supposed to weight of 3254 and have a tongue weight of 266 lb. Guess that was off by a ton.

I have never seen a trailer from any manufacturer that has a tongue weight that's as low as what's advertised in their brochures. I also have never seen a truck that has the "maximum payload" that's advertised in the brochure. All of that is "marketing and advertising" to "one up the competition"... It is not "reality based" as you're finding out by looking at your current truck and trailer. Toyota says your truck can tow a trailer weighing up to the GCWR of 11250 pounds. With your truck at maximum weight of 5611 pounds, (you're currently over by 10 pounds) the maximum trailer would weigh 11250-5611=5639 pounds. You say your current trailer axles weigh 4145 and your truck is currently overloaded by 10 pounds. That should illustrate to you that your truck is not capable of towing a trailer that weighs another 1500 pounds, enough to "max out the GCWR of 11250. It can "PULL" that much weight, but it can not safely "CARRY" that much weight on the tongue.

Now, the problem you'll run into "moving cargo around to get a light tongue" is that once you get a tongue weight below around 10% of trailer weight, the back of the trailer begins to weigh more than the front and the load on the hitch being "too light" makes the vehicle sway. Once that "light tongue" begins to control the vehicle steering, passing a truck or being passed by a truck, or towing in a crosswind becomes a very dangerous condition. The tongue of the trailer needs to weigh between 10-15% of total trailer weigh in order to maintain the correct "trailer balance" so towing characteristics are maintained. You can "fudge a few pounds" but when you start trying to achieve the 8.9% that's in the brochures, you simply can't tow that trailer safely in most highway conditions....

As you're seeing, your "lightweight Dutchman" is really significantly than you believed it to be. You're going to find out that a 199ML is going to be significantly heavier than your current Dutchman. What that means is that if you're overweight now and add a heavier trailer, you're going to be even further overweight. If you try to "shift the load to compensate" you're going to run into some significant control issues that will make you stop towing the trailer until you get a bigger, heavier, more capable tow vehicle..... There are literally hundreds of members on this forum who have been there and done that.... I'm one, with a 1992 F150 and a 1993 Holiday Rambler 34CBFK. I couldn't get the truck out of second gear or above 45MPH on the interstate... All the "numbers" appeared to suggest the empty trailer should tow just fine.... BUT IT DIDN'T.... That same day I bought a F250 diesel and never had another towing control or sway issue with that trailer, and it cruised at 70MPH in high gear "effortlessly"....

Other members will tell you their stories, but hopefully you get the point that "pushing any vehicle to the maximum rating or beyond is not only foolish, it's unsafe for you and the people who rely on you to keep them safe on the highway....

[BCBorn]

Thank You All

[BCBorn]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

REREAD THAT DOCUMENT FROM THE SCALE STAFF....

What it says (and I haven't read it) is that the RAWR and FAWR will always be greater than the GVWR.

That is true on any vehicle. Automotive engineering "mandates" that the sum of the two axle ratings always is greater than the GVWR of the vehicle. That's so you can load the bed of a truck and still sit in the driver's seat without exceeding the front axle rating. It's called "load varability" and is an "engineered in compensation"...

That document DOES NOT say that the front axle weight when added to the rear axle weight can exceed the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating. It says the "ratings" will exceed the GVW rating... Not that the "Axle weights can exceed the GVW rating.....

The light came on, I finally got it.

The two GAWR on the door sticker added together will always exceed the GVWR on the door sticker.

None of the Cat scale weights or sum of weights can exceed the door sticker weights .

Axle 1 cannot exceed door FR GAWR

Axle 2 cannot exceed door RR GAWR

Next step is you add Cat scale Axle 1 and Axle 2 readings together, this sum cannot exceed the GVWR on the door sticker.

Next

The Cat Scale measurement of Axle 3 (trailer) cannot exceed the GVWR rating found on the front left of the Trailer. This number cannot exceed the Trailer Weight Rating allowed in the owners manual either.

Add all three Cat Scale readings together (Axle 1, 2, 3) and the sum of these numbers cannot exceed the vehicles GCWR found in the owners manual.

In the case of my Dutchman Trailer all I needed to do to comply would have been to move at least 10 lbs from the pass-thru to the rear of the trailer or take canopy off truck.

This correct?

[travelin texans]

Originally Posted by BCBorn

In the case of my Dutchman Trailer all I needed to do to comply would have been to move at least 10 lbs from the pass-thru to the rear of the trailer or take canopy off truck.

This correct?

No! This is not correct! I'm no mathematician, but I do know that moving weighted items from one end to the other when cantilevered over an axle is not pound for pound.
Your only option for either trailer is get a real truck! If you are so in love that tiny Taco that you can't live without it then get a much lighter smaller rv!
If you're 10 lbs over you're overloaded..... period! Believe me once you start loading for this trip then the next there WILL be stuff that never gets removed so your overloaded condition will only get greater.
If you are going to weigh every item being loaded then you will also have to weigh every item that gets used or unloaded & get a log of all those items every trip..............BOY! does that sound like a fun trip, NO THANK YOU!
And I will attest, as I'm sure others here will also, that towing too much rv with too little tow vehicle is absolutely no fun either, it can be damn scary & dangerous.

[quaddriver]

Originally Posted by BCBorn

Axle 1 cannot exceed door FR GAWR

Axle 2 cannot exceed door RR GAWR

true

Next step is you add Cat scale Axle 1 and Axle 2 readings together, this sum cannot exceed the GVWR on the door sticker.

not always but yes, I gave the steps in another thread to alter this, but it varies from state to state. Or country to country as in your case. I dont think its needed. Take the steps I laid out for you and you will be fine. Join Toyota nation, 3rd gen taco specifically. hundreds of the EXACT same questions over there and most of the techs there are actually licensed AND, Toyota engineering chimes in. As I said before, Toyota is the one brand where you tune everyone out BUT toyota.

The Cat Scale measurement of Axle 3 (trailer) cannot exceed the GVWR rating found on the front left of the Trailer. This number cannot exceed the Trailer Weight Rating allowed in the owners manual either.

true

Add all three Cat Scale readings together (Axle 1, 2, 3) and the sum of these numbers cannot exceed the vehicles GCWR found in the owners manual.

yes but not always. GCWR is not a law and is not enforceable as long as no individual GVWR is exceeded AND the licensing requirement - not a problem you dont face so dont sweat it. Its a warranty recommendation. Its based more on engine, axle ratio and transmission type (read: clutch capability) You are fine here.

In the case of my Dutchman Trailer all I needed to do to comply would have been to move at least 10 lbs from the pass-thru to the rear of the trailer or take canopy off truck.

the cap is a wild card not factored in thats why I asked you about it, its a direct hit to total load. but remember what I told you last night, load the tongue weight agnostic. meaning whatever the shipped tongue weight is, is sufficient in almost all cases. Its in the manual. In fact, when the keystone was built, Horizon back up to it, hooked up and yanked it hundreds of miles mostly speeding and dropped it at the dealer doing exactly nothing. in my area each driver does 2 per day. it dont hurt em.



If you load the reasonable load such that factory tongue weight never goes up, NOR down, it will be fine. But thats not possible today. Todays DoW construction has zero basement storage which aids that, and lowers CoG. (center of gravity) The front passthru is the WORST thing made today and the source of almost all problems. its fit for the tikis, folding chairs, slinky box and coleman tables and not much else. but we have no choice. dont try to balance the tongue using rear storage more than a few % of total weight, you greatly increase the inertia moment to a point no tow vehicle short of a real tractor can recover. I can send you drawings as to why. Its something sir isaac dreamed up......



Over axle storage is your friend. When we tow a trailer we even keep the 100+lbs of clothes in the suitcases on the floor in the center till we get to destination - better there than in the cupboard over the tongue.


do the hitch setup as I laid out and re-weigh.

[JRTJH]

All the above (post #55) being said, the simple fact remains that your current trailer "maxes out your payload" in your current truck. To attempt to hitch a trailer weighing more than that won't change the "maximums you face".

You're at max load/overloaded currently, there's no "magic" involved that will allow you to hitch a travel trailer weighing 1000 to 1500 pounds more and suddenly "be OK on weights"...... RV's are not like "cargo trailers or boat trailers or flatbed trailers" and don't tow like they do.

As Danny (travelin texans) said, "Your only option for either trailer is get a real truck! If you are so in love that tiny Taco that you can't live without it then get a much lighter smaller rv!"

Until you're towing down a mountain pass and the trailer brakes overheat and stop working, until a 10 year old on a bicycle darts out in front of your rig, until you're in busy traffic on an interstate and a gust of wind pushes your trailer into the next lane just as an 18 wheeler is passing by, pushing your trailer in the other direction and the sway makes staying in your lane impossible, until you're on a wet road and see your trailer "pass you by".... Until one or more of those things happen and YOU get that "wake up call" ...

Until then, you'll just have to trust those who have towed too much trailer with too little truck.... Once you experience some (or all) of the above, you'll understand. Until then, please be careful if your solution is "just move 10 pounds from the front of the trailer to behind it"....

[wiredgeorge]

Originally Posted by travelin texans

Not sure why you are so adamant to find the UVW without propane, batteries or power tongue jack that tell you nothing about towing this particular rv that means ABSOLUTELY nothing.
The advertised tongue weight, the advertised tow rating or most any number you'll find on websites, not to mention any of those weights that ANYONE else may have, are ABSOLUTELY useless to YOU!
You have been given excellent advice by several on here for calculating real world rv weights, most all of which have proven beyond a doubt that your Taco truck is NOT up to the task you're trying to place on it.
If you chose to use all of these useless numbers & hitch up this particular rv to that mini truck, that WILL be severely overloaded, then know that YOU & your insurance company can/will be financial responsibile in the event of accident as the 1st numbers that will be confirmed are your weights by law enforcement & lawyers.
From what you've posted you've made your mind up that the Taco truck is capable of handling this rv if you skew the numbers enough, so I'll just wish you GOOD LUCK SAFE TRAVELS!

When you go to the doctor and have to get on the scale, don't you take off your cowboy hat, boots, belt, vest... well everything that isn't essential on keeping you decent in a mixed environment? That weight on the scale is embarrassing enough without weighing all the stuff I wear. I do keep my jeans on and make the nurse take a pound off the recorded weight to make my weigh in accurate. (skinny folks probably never thought of these things)

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by wiredgeorge

When you go to the doctor and have to get on the scale, don't you take off your cowboy hat, boots, belt, vest... well everything that isn't essential on keeping you decent in a mixed environment? That weight on the scale is embarrassing enough without weighing all the stuff I wear. I do keep my jeans on and make the nurse take a pound off the recorded weight to make my weigh in accurate. (skinny folks probably never thought of these things)

I've had patients "absolutely refuse" to be weighed "in public" (that is, if anyone, including my nurse was present) and then, only if they were "naked" or "uncomfortably close to naked".... Usually that's with no regard to anyone being "offended" by their attire..... Ironically, those same patients often "insist" that their height be measured while wearing their high heel boots or that they be allowed to "tippy toe" just enough to reach that extra inch or so.....

Then, I've had those patients who weren't quite as close, who would "negotiate the deduction for clothing"... Some argued over a pound, some over 3 pounds, some wanted their clothing to 'remove weight" stating their underwear weighed 10+ pounds.....

So, yep, cowboy boots and that big belt buckle do affect weight...

And, to keep it "RV related": So does the spare boots and belt that's stored in the trailer.....

[BCBorn]

You have all said math doesn't lie. This post started out with me asking for real world pre 2016 Passport 199ML UVW and TW weights with standard options (no battery, 2 Empty Propane Tanks and a manual Jack) as it was delivered.

You all said use 13% for tongue weight if the real numbers are not available.

Maximum Tacoma Payload 1000 lbs

Passport 199ML Factory Reported UVW 3571 lb.

Passport 199ML Factory Reported TW 335 lbs

Weighed Truck Payload Available with Canopy 530 lbs

Truck Payload Available without Canopy 700 lbs (guessing canopy is 170 lbs)

I have a total of 802 lbs of cargo, as I weighed and spread sheeted each and every piece. Lets say "I have everything including the kitchen sink" I have stuff I have never taken out of the trailer since owning it.


3571 + 802 = 4373 lbs (less battery and Propane Liquid)

4373 x 13% = 569 lb Estimated Tongue Weight (Factory TW 335 lbs) Leaves 234 lb for battery and propane liquid.

3571 + 802 + 569 = 4942 (Trailer GVW of 5200 lbs)

1000 - 530 - 569 = -99 lbs Over Payload Limit


Same Math 10% TW (Toyota Manual says 9% - 10%)

3571 + 802 = 4373 lbs (less battery and Propane Liquid)

4373 x 10% = 437 lb Estimated Tongue Weight (Factory 335 lbs) Leaves 102 lb for battery and propane liquid.

3571 + 802 + 437 = 4810 (Trailer GVW of 5200 lbs)

1000 - 530 - 437 = 33 lbs Under Payload Limit


Same Math 10% TW remove Canopy

3571 + 802 = 4373 lbs (less battery and Propane Liquid)

4373 x 10% = 437 lb Estimated Tongue Weight (Factory 335 lbs) Leaves 102 lb for battery and propane liquid.

3571 + 802 + 437 = 4810 (Trailer GVW of 5200 lbs)

1000 - 700 - 437 = 137 lbs under Payload Limit

These number does not take into account the transfer of TW from Weighed Rear Axle Weight to Front Axle with the use of Equalizer Bars.

Thanks for all your suggestions;

1) Buy a bigger truck

2) Remove Canopy from Truck

3) Dump the dual 6 volt batteries for a Lithium (-108 lbs)

4) Dump the two 30 lb Propane tanks, stay with the two 20 lb tanks (-32 lbs).

5) No one suggested don't take stuff you have never used.

By the way, NONE of the above suggestions were done with the Dutchman and it put me 10 lbs over payload.


The end result taking in your suggestions @13% TW with Canopy

-99 + 108 + 32 = 41 lbs Under Truck Payload Limit

The end result taking in your suggestions @13% TW without Canopy

-99 + 170 + 108 + 32 = 211 lbs Under Truck Payload Limit


The end result taking in your suggestions @10% TW with Canopy;

33 +108 + 32 = 173 lbs Under Truck Payload Limit

The end result taking in your suggestions @10% TW without Canopy;

33 + 170 +108 + 32 = 343 lbs Under Truck Payload Limit

I will pace an order for a tongue scale as suggested, no guess work.

[JDDilly]

Good Luck. I am glad you can justify using your Tocoma as a TV. Worrying about 10 lbs hare and there is way to much for me to think about when getting ready to go on a trip. I hope all goes well.