"Payloads"

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by Essvar

Sticker is the sticker. But… doesn’t is seem a bit silly that the sticker doesn’t actually reflect the vehicle but only how it can comply with DOT ratings?

Now we are going off into the weed with the old conversation "the sticker is silly because it doesn't reflect the vehicle". Doesn't reflect the vehicle in what way? In what respect? WHO determines what the vehicle ability is if it's not the factory? The owner motivated by the desire to save a few dollars? An after market guy that's going to put some spring over shocks on it and say it now has 1500lbs. more carry capacity? WHERE do you draw that line? Wait, you don't have to....it's on the sticker. It isn't "silly", just as I said, there is an out and larger weight ratings are offered to everyone - use them if they fit. The 10k rating is offered for those that can make it fit, if not, upsize - not try to cut corners and break laws.

I'm thinking of buying a Hellcat. It'll run close to 200mph. I should be able to drive that fast because it can.....right? Of course not, it's the law.

[Essvar]

Originally Posted by sourdough

Now we are going off into the weed with the old conversation "the sticker is silly because it doesn't reflect the vehicle". Doesn't reflect the vehicle in what way? In what respect? WHO determines what the vehicle ability is if it's not the factory? The owner motivated by the desire to save a few dollars? An after market guy that's going to put some spring over shocks on it and say it now has 1500lbs. more carry capacity? WHERE do you draw that line? Wait, you don't have to....it's on the sticker. It isn't "silly", just as I said, there is an out and larger weight ratings are offered to everyone - use them if they fit. The 10k rating is offered for those that can make it fit, if not, upsize - not try to cut corners and break laws.

I'm thinking of buying a Hellcat. It'll run close to 200mph. I should be able to drive that fast because it can.....right? Of course not, it's the law.

I’m of the opinion that the factory is not placing that sticker based on the capabilities of the vehicle but the regulations placed upon them to be able to sell the vehicle within DOT registration requirements.

I’ve had a few bikes that would do 105mph in 1st gear (there are 6). Anyone 16+ could walk in and buy one. Why would we be allowed to sell something that legally never gets out of 1st gear?

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by Essvar

I’m of the opinion that the factory is not placing that sticker based on the capabilities of the vehicle but the regulations placed upon them to be able to sell the vehicle within DOT registration requirements.

I’ve had a few bikes that would do 105mph in 1st gear (there are 6). Anyone 16+ could walk in and buy one. Why would we be allowed to sell something that legally never gets out of 1st gear?

You're trolling and I'm done. Ply your wares elsewhere. The law is the law.

[Badbart56]

Originally Posted by sourdough

You're trolling and I'm done. Ply your wares elsewhere. The law is the law.

The bottom line is there's a lot more RV's on the road than there are DOT officers. Even in my (commercial) world, many truck drivers get away with violations simply because they seldom get stopped. And the average RV owner really has no idea of the rules and regulations. We all see it here practically on a daily basis. Thanks to those of you who try to educate them and an even bigger thanks to those who seek the right way to tow. Try to be safe out there, but we can only control what we can control.

[bigdave_185]

I’d like to poke the argument that the taxes are different also on a 3500 class vehicle.

If I go to my local Gm dealership and ring up two matching trucks minus one says 2500 vs 3500 the gm 3500 comes to the dealership cheaper.

You insurance is usually higher on the 2500 also if I understand correctly




As for my two cents no one asked. I do a lot of towing in commercial vehicles (oversize loads and over weight permit) and I’ll tell ya what the general RV motor home crown seem to mind their lane, keep under the speed limit and are respectable folks

The fifthwheel guys around here all seem to be trying to prove a penis point of big truck lifted to high hell snd a toy hauler with a weld a lift kit to fit the truck doing 85 mph down the highway. Them guys need a quick lesson in what the weight and momentum of their death trap can do and I have yet to see it.

I’d be up for a more developed Driver test type program. Our roads in Utah are getting scary to be on over the holidays and weekends

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by Essvar

That’s because the GVRW is determined by the DOT. The sticker is the sticker. 10,000 magical number

Well DOT sets the Class weight ranges, the manufacturer sets the GVWR of their vehicles.
This is why you can buy a F350 with a 10,000# GVWR or a 12,400# GVWR.
GM and Ford currently sell 250/2500’s with a GVWR over 10,000# really making them Class 3 trucks.

[Essvar]

Originally Posted by rhagfo

Well DOT sets the Class weight ranges, the manufacturer sets the GVWR of their vehicles.
This is why you can buy a F350 with a 10,000# GVWR or a 12,400# GVWR.
GM and Ford currently sell 250/2500’s with a GVWR over 10,000# really making them Class 3 trucks.

Do you know what makes that 350 change from 10k to 12.4K?

[Ken / Claudia]

Maybe is does not matter, that's what my wife says when I point out her mistakes.

But Essvar, your confusing comm. vehicles with pickups used as a private vehicle. DOT does not care one bit what your private pickup GVWR is. They do not care what trucks weigh until 26,001 lbs and greater used as a for hire vehicle.
But many states sure do, by mandating higher licensing fees on vehicles 10,001 lbs plus.
I seen pickups normally 3/4 was 8600/8800 1 tons SRW 9900 GVWR for years.
Now it's 9600/9900 for 3/4 and 1100 plus on 1 tons SRWs. That's the manufactures doing that.
My 350 SRW has GVWR 11500. Why? I don't know. Don't care either. It's what's
is on the VIN plate.

What OSP does today for enforcement, I have no idea. My opinion is there are some that still cite or warn over weight and over length Pickups and RVs. But really in Oregon the biggest problem is your personal liability if your ever involved in a major crash, regarding operating outside or beyond the vehicles posted limits or ratings. Your best bet is to ask your auto ins. agent if you are knowingly overloading your vehicle will he/she still cover your butt. If so, how much can you exceed the vehicles posted limits that they will say "No problem."

Nowadays if anyone can point a finger at you and think they can get money, they will try. Police and Insurance co.s will go over every detail about your vehicle, trust me they check weights and compare that to the PAYLOAD and GVWR stickers. among hundreds of other items.

[Essvar]

Originally Posted by Ken / Claudia

Maybe is does not matter, that's what my wife says when I point out her mistakes.

But Essvar, your confusing comm. vehicles with pickups used as a private vehicle. DOT does not care one bit what your private pickup GVWR is. They do not care what trucks weigh until 26,001 lbs and greater used as a for hire vehicle.
But many states sure do, by mandating higher licensing fees on vehicles 10,001 lbs plus.
I seen pickups normally 3/4 was 8600/8800 1 tons SRW 9900 GVWR for years.
Now it's 9600/9900 for 3/4 and 1100 plus on 1 tons SRWs. That's the manufactures doing that.
My 350 SRW has GVWR 11500. Why? I don't know. Don't care either. It's what's
is on the VIN plate.

What OSP does today for enforcement, I have no idea. My opinion is there are some that still cite or warn over weight and over length Pickups and RVs. But really in Oregon the biggest problem is your personal liability if your ever involved in a major crash, regarding operating outside or beyond the vehicles posted limits or ratings. Your best bet is to ask your auto ins. agent if you are knowingly overloading your vehicle will he/she still cover your butt. If so, how much can you exceed the vehicles posted limits that they will say "No problem."

Nowadays if anyone can point a finger at you and think they can get money, they will try. Police and Insurance co.s will go over every detail about your vehicle, trust me they check weights and compare that to the PAYLOAD and GVWR stickers. among hundreds of other items.

Ken,

Thank you very much for this. I truly wanted to know the “why” and for someone to actually say… we don’t know is really all I was hoping for . And I agree one hundred percent on the liability front. Fault or not, if you are running over 26,001 without a CDL or over your vehicle weights… you will be on the losing end of a lawsuit.

[notanlines]

Many states don't require RV'ers to have CDL's. From drivinglaws.org:
"When a CDL is Required
Tennessee requires a CDL to operate any vehicle weighing 26,001 or more pounds or designed to carry hazardous materials or more than 15 passengers. Recreational vehicles, leased personal property transports, emergency response vehicles, and military vehicles are not considered CMVs and do not require the operator to possess a CDL. Agricultural vehicles can also be used without a CDL if owned by the farmer and used for farm-related tasks."

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by Essvar

Ken,

Thank you very much for this. I truly wanted to know the “why” and for someone to actually say… we don’t know is really all I was hoping for . And I agree one hundred percent on the liability front. Fault or not, if you are running over 26,001 without a CDL or over your vehicle weights… you will be on the losing end of a lawsuit.

I am not sure if any state requires a CDL (Commercial Drivers License) to tow an RV no matter the weight, unless doing it for Hire. I will state that many states require a Non-Commercial endorsement on a standard drivers license depending on the weight of the trailer, or the GVWR of the TV. I live in the state of Oregon, we don't have a special endorsement or weight limit, I have the email to prove it.
As Ken stated the issues isn't getting a citation for being overweight, it is the Legal issues if involved in an accident and you are over weight. You may be facing a lawsuit even if not cited as causing the crash!

[Ken / Claudia]

Yea, the DOT CDL thing at 26,001 lbs and larger still is about "For Hire."
Even in Oregon a large semi tractor pulling a RV is not a CDL issue if it is not for hire. Watch and look you might see them in every state. On the side doors Big lettered words "This vehicle is not for hire."
In Oregon they need a Truck license plate or Motorhome plate (yellow), but not a DOT plate (red) nor CDL drivers license.
The guys that deliver them must have a CDL and follow all DOT rules. Because they are for hire.
Off the track a little, other big rigs not DOT or CDL are Farmer owned trucks used to move their OWN livestock, equipment and feed. If they move others stuff they fall back into DOT rules.
I still look at that stuff as I travel on the highway. Not that I will do a thing about it, but notice that stuff. Sorry I cannot just stare down the road, my head is still on a swivel when driving.

[flybouy]

Let's say you get into a terrible accident while towing. May not be your fualt but the "other party" will get an attorney and they will pry into everything about your truck, trailer, finances, past violations, and finances. They will sue for damages and go to a jury trial.

At trial, the injured party may be setting there in a wheelchair and have a big photo of the loved one they lost in the accident. The jury then hears how the defendant (you) knowingly and willfully drove dangerously overloaded. They will submit all forms of evidence from the manufacturers to the state and federal statutes to your social media posts where you may proclaim that "you've been towing overweight for years without a problem".

The jury hears this and guess what? Now you have a problem.

As for being pulled over and weighed? Never happened to me but then again I don't go down the road towing a 15K fiver with a Tacoma either. I've also have never been pulled over for speeding while going the speed limit. Have I ever seen someone pulled over for this? How in the world would I know WHY anyone is pulled over?

[Ken / Claudia]

Marshall, you said it all. No one knows why a officer is pulling over a vehicle or stopped behind them on the shoulder. Unless your listening or reading the dispatch information.
I stopped a few folks pulling RVs to tell them about the flapping roof vent, steps out, flat tires. You name it, I stopped people for hundreds of violations or safety concerns. Many got tickets, some got warnings others got help.
I heard several times, I never see the state police. Well at times there was 40 troopers working full time on the metro freeways and nearby highways. Many I worked with went through a 25 cite pinch book every 2 to 3 days. Arrested wanted people every 2 to 3 days. Arrested drunks almost nightly. Investigated crashes a couple times a week.

[wiredgeorge]

Originally Posted by flybouy

Let's say you get into a terrible accident while towing. May not be your fualt but the "other party" will get an attorney and they will pry into everything about your truck, trailer, finances, past violations, and finances. They will sue for damages and go to a jury trial.

At trial, the injured party may be setting there in a wheelchair and have a big photo of the loved one they lost in the accident. The jury then hears how the defendant (you) knowingly and willfully drove dangerously overloaded. They will submit all forms of evidence from the manufacturers to the state and federal statutes to your social media posts where you may proclaim that "you've been towing overweight for years without a problem".

The jury hears this and guess what? Now you have a problem.

As for being pulled over and weighed? Never happened to me but then again I don't go down the road towing a 15K fiver with a Tacoma either. I've also have never been pulled over for speeding while going the speed limit. Have I ever seen someone pulled over for this? How in the world would I know WHY anyone is pulled over?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6gI7Ts14Qw

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by wiredgeorge

George I like that! I recall in high school stuffing 12 people (mainly girls) into a 1965 Plymouth Fury. Hell, that guy resembles me when after I graduated HS as I grew a beard for deer season. Too much fun? Not after I turned 21. That could be a refrain for that song. I stopped being the poster child for traffic court after I turned 21.

[wiredgeorge]

When I was a lad, I was called the Boy Deferred Adjudicaton. I also had a yearly pass to Driver's School which was a substitute for points on a license. They actually have comedy driver school here in Texas which is actually kinda fun. I no longer am a scoff law.

[sourdough]

Yep, seems like those infractions we incurred while young didn't have the same meaning as they did when we got older. I know once I was employed by a large, well paying company all driving records were pulled and you could lose your job for repeated violations (we drove company vehicles) so being nonchalant could carry a big price tag......unless you just wanted to keep losing jobs.

I once pretty much knew all the counties that allowed deferred adjudication so would use that everywhere I went. They would only allow one so would have to reroute next go round thru a different county so I wouldn't get a reportable ticket. And yes, they allowed driver's education courses as well. I attended a lot of them. That way you could have 2 tickets in one county. They eventually made it so you could only do one driver training class per year (after they computerized). The comedy clubs were a hoot. In one class an accident simulation had one student with a huge foam cowboy hat sitting in a makeshift automobile being hit by another student with a huge set of moose antlers. Didn't learn a lot in those classes but sure laughed a lot....and got that certificate to dodge that ticket.

Haven't done any of those in decades though and don't figure I'll start at this late date.

[flybouy]

My father taught me to drive at a very young age. When I was 16 and legally licensed my mother worked for the State Police. She was head of payroll back then so all the troopers knew her. That came in handy more than once. Anyway, after passing the driving test I was told to go to HQ and the driving instructor there proceeded to "teach me a few things". My being behind the wheel of that SP cruiser was like a being a kid in a candy shop!: I can still the scowl on his face when after the first few maneuvers he asked "How long have you been driving son?"

[quaddriver]

Originally Posted by Essvar

Ok, so this is an insight thread. The collective here must have over a million miles towing RV's so.....



We all know, you can't change the stickers on your door. BUT... where do those numbers come from? The magical 10,000lbs... It must have to do with DOT and registration because it never adds up to the GVAR (axle ratings) If I'm wrong please educate me. A heavy truck must stay under that 10,000lbs so obviously the payload is greatly reduced.



As for the tire sticker... can't we just erase that as soon as we change from the OEM tire?


Speaking for 5th wheels only here... exceeding rated payloads can cause damage to your truck, differentials, wheel studs... a host of things.... has anyone heard of catastrophic failure? Snapped axle or something of that nature?







And lastly... in the millions of miles.. has anyone here been pulled over and weighed?



Personally, I've been pulled over 2x towing trailers. Once was in WA because I was towing a flatbed gooseneck with rated capacity of 20k and in WA you must be licensed for the trailers rating, not what it actually weighs. Never pulled over towing an RV.

actually, you can change the door stickers. no they dont issue new ones, but you can change what they mean on your paperwork. I cannot speak for other states than PA as I am only licensed to do it in pa, but to my knowledge all other states are similar.


I detailed this before, here, there, everywhere but there are 3 things you have to worry about


1) how much you can drive, and how much you can tow.

the magic numbers for most states are drive 26K or less, tow 10K or less. If you have to exceed this, its a license issue.


2) how much can you weigh - registered weight. You can register down (to save money) or you can register up to haul more. as long as the trailer weight is under what you can pull with your license and what it is registered for, its weight is immaterial to the tow vehicle, other than the imputed tongue or pin weight. You can make your registered weight be above any number on your door sticker. In my state its a couple forms, a few signatures etc etc.



3) axle max. the published axle max's are tough to register over, but you can. My dear ole departed 1990 f150 was possible to register up to PA class 3 (9klbs) ...I dont recommend that on ford 8.8s....but I digress


anything after that you can do if you have a tool set from heck. My 1990

f150 I could have made register the same as a F350 drw by bolting a few things on. ok, a lot of things but coincidentally I happen to know how ;-)



in my state, mis-licensed pinches are the most expensive. but the easiest to fix. just take the test, pay some $$.


If you see a truck/tt on the side being pinched, and it aint for speeding its generally a weight class violation...they are easy to spot. But at the same time, like 3/4s of the big outfits on the road, dont have the right license (but thats ok, like 90% of the cycles on the road aint driven by licensed riders)