Is Keystone really that bad or are there just more of them out there

[cb1000rider]

Word of mouth IS the internet. It's just a lot more mouths... Remember when we bought encyclopedias? The internet kinda ruined that business... However, it's also created a huge bank of knowledge.. Most of it right, some of it misleading.

The internet also does huge things for businesses that have great consumer response - like Amazon... And honestly, pretty much all RV manufacturers have complaints, but I'll use my brain and read through BBB responses and differentiate how businesses respond to consumers. I can't always tell what complaints are valid and which aren't, but I can judge how a company responds...

[Festus2]

cb1000rider -
Since joining the forum you have submitted a number of posts in which you are quite critical of Keystone and their products. If I understand you correctly, your major complaint is their lack of response to real customer problems. You state that the way they operate is no way to run a business and that there is well-documented poor response to its customers after the sale.

You go on to say that their units are of low build quality and that you "see very little quality with Keystone".

In general your comments are quite negative but to give you credit you do admit that they "have great floor plans".

One of your many complaints is that Keystone does not deal directly with the customer should there be an issue or problem with a customer's RV. I think most major RV and auto manufacturers do not deal directly with the customer and Keystone is no exception. If, for example, you have a problem with your tow truck or family car, do you call up Ford or GM or whoever and deal directly with the folks there? Most people I know, go through their dealership first and the dealer does almost all of the "negotiating" - not the customer - to get the problem fixed. How is it that you expect Keystone to deal directly with you? Are your problems of such importance and priority that you feel Keystone should work one-on-one with you while the rest of us go through the normal channels and work with the dealer?

Finally, I am wondering why, after reading so many of your negative remarks about Keystone and Keystone RVs why you bought one. Do you have anything positive at all to say? Puzzled.

[cw3jason]

I came from a Crossroads product before purchasing my Montana and I belong to both forums. They have just as many if not more complaints over there. All this stuff is industry wide. I love my Montana, and I have had no problem with Keystone or my dealer.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[notanlines]

I'm with Festus on this one. If Brenda and I had all the money back we've spent on boats, motorcycles and RV's ...........we'd have enough to buy more of each. But the one thing we learned is to work with the dealer. And bad-mouthing the product you just bought seems kind of odd to me.

[Dave W]

Originally Posted by Festus2

cb1000rider -
Since joining the forum you have submitted a number of posts in which you are quite critical of Keystone and their products. If I understand you correctly, your major complaint is their lack of response to real customer problems. You state that the way they operate is no way to run a business and that there is well-documented poor response to its customers after the sale.

You go on to say that their units are of low build quality and that you "see very little quality with Keystone".

In general your comments are quite negative but to give you credit you do admit that they "have great floor plans".

One of your many complaints is that Keystone does not deal directly with the customer should there be an issue or problem with a customer's RV. I think most major RV and auto manufacturers do not deal directly with the customer and Keystone is no exception. If, for example, you have a problem with your tow truck or family car, do you call up Ford or GM or whoever and deal directly with the folks there? Most people I know, go through their dealership first and the dealer does almost all of the "negotiating" - not the customer - to get the problem fixed. How is it that you expect Keystone to deal directly with you? Are your problems of such importance and priority that you feel Keystone should work one-on-one with you while the rest of us go through the normal channels and work with the dealer?

Finally, I am wondering why, after reading so many of your negative remarks about Keystone and Keystone RVs why you bought one. Do you have anything positive at all to say? Puzzled.

Uhhhh isn't this considered a 'personal attack' and forbidden.You, Festus, as a 'Super Moderator' are making a personal statement against a forum member about a real or perceived situation. I'm new here and am completely surprised that this is on the public side rather then via PM or private email. Other sites I frequent on other interests would place you on a week or two vacation regardless of your site status. Please stop - also, please remove your statement above and keep this site friendly regardless of your problem towards a person!!

[Dave W]

To respond to the OP - Keystone products are like so many other complicated items. Sometimes it's just the luck of the draw and one unit just seems to get every defective outsourced part in the factory on a particular day. Then there is the new owner that feels that a loose light bulb is cause for complaint. We jumped to a Keystone product from a super premium, but now dated and defunct Glendale Titanium and while there are some real differences in build quality and supplied components, are very satisfied with our choice of a Montana High Country. Yeah, it has had some problems though minor. Then there was that dweeb designer who insisted on black slide ends that absorb heat, especially the reefer slide. And the belly mounted spare that dragged before I pulled it out. These are minor issues, relatively easily correctable by a DIY 'er - and some things every RV owner should have some skills in doing. Find a design and a manufacturer you like, but Keystone is owned by Thor and they seem to own a big part of the US RV industry regardless of final brand name.

[jsmith948]

Originally Posted by Dave W

Uhhhh isn't this considered a 'personal attack' and forbidden.You, Festus, as a 'Super Moderator' are making a personal statement against a forum member about a real or perceived situation. I'm new here and am completely surprised that this is on the public side rather then via PM or private email. Other sites I frequent on other interests would place you on a week or two vacation regardless of your site status. Please stop - also, please remove your statement above and keep this site friendly regardless of your problem towards a person!!

DaveW,
I have re-read Festus2's response to CB1000rider and do not see it as a "personal attack" but as an attempt by one of our members to point out to the poster that his comments and statements are consistently negative. In fact, I would say this member either has "an ax to grind" or is affiliated with another manufacturer.
This member supports our Forum moderators. Keep up the good work and thanks for your efforts.

[EricLynnAllison]

Other than loose screws on the skirting, Any other problems I've had with my Raptor are with items they purchase and install just like any other RV manufacturer such as tires, water heater, etc.

[Scttw]

Originally Posted by Dave W

Uhhhh isn't this considered a 'personal attack' and forbidden.You, Festus, as a 'Super Moderator' are making a personal statement against a forum member about a real or perceived situation. I'm new here and am completely surprised that this is on the public side rather then via PM or private email. Other sites I frequent on other interests would place you on a week or two vacation regardless of your site status. Please stop - also, please remove your statement above and keep this site friendly regardless of your problem towards a person!!

Festus' remarks were fair, not offending, and accurate.

[Scttw]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

A Customer Satisfaction Poll that was conducted on this forum a few years back. It started in June 2011 and the last entry was in November, 2012. Data from that poll indicated of the 342 members who responded, 309 indicated they would buy another Keystone RV while 33 indicated otherwise. You can find the poll and the comments located on the forum at this link: http://www.keystonerv.org/forums/sho...other+Keystone

IMO this is the most important reply for the OP. 90% satisfaction from 342 members is very good.

[14george]

Keep up the good work Festus I love mine no complaints

[Barbell]

Like others on the forum, we started with a small tent, then a big tent, then a Lance truck camper and now have a Montana which we love. Never had any problems with the Lance at all; we just got too old to be climbing in and out of the over-the-cab bed. When we started looking to upgrade from the Lance, we spent at least two years and looked at nearly every brand there is but kept coming back to the Montana. We have owned it for just over two years and have pulled it around 25,000 miles. We have had some warranty work and some recall work done, none of which was done at our original dealer. We have used Camping Worlds in the Carolinas and Arizona with never a question about where we bought it. I have done some work on the closet doors with assurances from a Keystone rep that I would be reimbursed; however, that person was never found again when I submitted my bill. I also added a hitch so we could carry our bikes without hanging them on the ladder. All in all, however, our experience with Keystone has been positive. The trailer is well built, taking into consideration it has to be made as light as possible. If/when we replace this trailer, it most likely will be another Keystone product.

[sourdough]

Well, here's my 2 cents worth.

I've owned Fleetwood, Jayco, Heartland and now Keystone products. ALL have had issues. ALL have requirements that you deal with the dealership. At Keystone I WAS allowed to talk and work thru the owner relations dept.

As far as Keystone vs ABC, they have the best floorplans out there IMO and the best build quality for money spent. Before we bought our new 14 Cougar High Country we looked at many, many manufacturers products and dozens upon dozens of units. Keystone had what we wanted, the best quality, the best price and a great dealer. Having owned other units I knew there would be some issues but a thorough PDI up front (from this forum) and a good dealership inspection prior to mine, kept that to a minimum. I am a happy camper and would buy Keystone again in a heartbeat if they had what I wanted at the right price.

As far as Festus2 making a personal attack - I don't think so IMO. I just deleted an entire paragraph explaining why but then it sounded like I was attacking the person in question Suffice it to say Festus2 pointed out the same questions that came to my mind after reading the posts mentioned.

[cb1000rider]

Originally Posted by Festus2

cb1000rider -
You go on to say that their units are of low build quality and that you "see very little quality with Keystone".

In general your comments are quite negative but to give you credit you do admit that they "have great floor plans".

One of your many complaints is that Keystone does not deal directly with the customer should there be an issue or problem with a customer's RV. I think most major RV and auto manufacturers do not deal directly with the customer and Keystone is no exception. If, for example, you have a problem with your tow truck or family car, do you call up Ford or GM or whoever and deal directly with the folks there? Most people I know, go through their dealership first and the dealer does almost all of the "negotiating" - not the customer - to get the problem fixed. How is it that you expect Keystone to deal directly with you? Are your problems of such importance and priority that you feel Keystone should work one-on-one with you while the rest of us go through the normal channels and work with the dealer?

Finally, I am wondering why, after reading so many of your negative remarks about Keystone and Keystone RVs why you bought one. Do you have anything positive at all to say? Puzzled.

So let me clarify:
I don't see a high degree of precision and quality control out of any of the 5th wheel toy haulers that I looked out. The background for this is investigating a bunch of posts about perceived hierarchy around the quality "order" of manufacturers. Basically I wanted to determine who builds a quality coach and who didn't. The conclusion that I came to is that most of the manufacturers are very similar in technique and that the ranking is mostly a ranking of options and doo-dads, which really doesn't have much to do with quality and assembly precision. That is, most people saying brand A didn't have "quality" largely meant lower-options - it was misleading to me.

I actually bought a Keystone because of metal framing. I have buddy with a Puma that would fit my needs very well and cost $10k less, but part of my investigation turned up Keystone has a more modern framing technique - lighter, and holds up better in the event of water... Is that worth $10k under ideal conditions? I don't know - but it's part of the reason that I bought a Keystone.

I do have concerns about Keystone responding to the consumer. I've never bought a new RV and it's kinda a unique situation where the dealer says that "it's not our warranty" - "no guarantee of service timeline" - literally immediately upon signing the paperwork - and Keystone wants the dealers to be the first line of defense. That's a new experience.

I've had great luck with other manufacturers (brands unmentioned) getting factory support for parts, diagrams, etc. Even when I didn't buy new. I wanted to know if Keystone did stuff like that.

That is, I need a part, don't want to drive a 2-hour round trip to my "dealer" and want to order direct - some manufacturers allow this, some don't. Some have sorta phone call technical support - but that's unusual and isn't sustainable if you're high volume. I wanted to understand the kind of support for parts etc that I'd expect from Keystone.

Sourdough's post - that there IS a customer relations department and a way to go around a dealer that may not be so interested in providing post-sale service is something that I'm very interested in hearing.


And yes, I'd very much like it if I can order a part (at retail) through the manufacturer. That's important to me. Most of my issues have been relatively minor and I'd rather sort out the part and have it shipped to me than have the parts guy 2 hours away get it wrong.

I don't like the BBB responses. That's just my opinion. They didn't make me feel confident. However, that was outweighed by people who have said "never had a problem" - and repair people that indicate that there are no special issues with Keystone and that it's more about taking care of the RV.


I think you'll find (long term) that most of my posts are technical - either asking or answering questions.

I didn't take your response as a personal attack, but please be clear if criticism of the brand isn't allowed or if I'm breaking some other forum rule that I'm not aware of. I'll get in line immediately or stop posting. It's your shop, your rules and I can respect them.

[Festus2]

A quick and short reply to a couple of your concerns ---
First, Keystone does not sell parts to folks who own a Keystone. They are not in the parts business so you shouldn't expect them, should you ask, to give you part numbers, sell you parts, recommend parts, or anything to do with parts. Your dealer or some other RV parts/supply retailer or online RV parts suppliers are your best route.

If you have issues or problems with your Carbon, the first place you should go to is the dealer. That is where you start. You can go to Customer Service but 9 times out of 10 they will refer you back to the dealership. So, get on good terms with your dealer and work with them to resolve issues. Hopefully, you have a good one that will support and go to bat for you when issues arise.

"Going to the top" or to Keystone isn't the best route to take. You may, at times, end up there, but the dealer is the "go to guy".

Keystone also does not supply any type of diagram or schematic relating to plumbing, electrical, framing, etc. Many members have asked about this and they are just not available. If you happen to get your hands on one, you could make a fortune on here selling it.

Lastly, we do have rules on the forum. They can be found in the Forum Rules section. You might be interested in the one that says that "repeated negative comments, trashing or attacks on ... manufacturers" .... are not acceptable. "Issues and concerns about manufacturers or their products are quite acceptable". There is a difference between the two. If a member continues to make repeated negative comments and has nothing constructive to contribute to the forum, those posts will be deleted and the member's account may be cancelled.

You can use your own common sense and judgment as to whether or not your criticism is negative, is continuing and is contributing nothing to the forum.

(I guess my reply wasn't so quick and short after all!)

[cb1000rider]

Thanks for the run down on Keystone parts. That's not the ideal answer, but it should mostly be a non-issue. Going to the top was never the intent, but sometimes there is factory support. Different brand - different way of doing things. No big deal and good to know.


If I get my hands on a diagram or end up reverse-engineering one (which happens sometimes) - I'm most likely to share that freely rather than sell it. Lack of diagrams is pretty common. Let's just say that they're all "custom" implementations.

These forums are tremendously valuable and there's such a huge learning curve without them, regardless of interest or product type. Literally there was no info on the Carbon anywhere else.

I asked lots of questions, perhaps I shouldn't have alluded to any negativity and asked more neutrally.. I have no ownership history so zero negative experiences. I've been transparent about it. I did provide my thoughts on BBB response, but I'll also note that I didn't reference that BBB link when asked, instead asked offing a PM - I was legitimately (in my mind) researching a purchase decision and sharing a concern. I'll be more careful when sharing a concern as it could be perceived as a rules violation.

Originally Posted by Festus2

You can use your own common sense and judgment as to whether or not your criticism is negative, is continuing and is contributing nothing to the forum.

I get the message loud and clear that I'm not behaving appropriately for this forum. I recognize that you've appropriately warned me and that I've been treated fairly. I understand that my questions are not adding value. Well presented, loud and clear. As I'm past the pre-purchase stage, I won't be asking for any more feedback on quality or end-owner experiences. Hopefully I can provide some technical (or other value) to the forum.

[sourdough]

To piggyback on Festus2s comments (I've now determined you are looking more for experience for guidance?):

Keystone will not work with "you" and bypass the dealer. Won't happen in my experience....nor will any other RV manufacturer that I know of. I worked with Keystone directly on an issue about tire/axle configurations on my trailer and they actually directed me to some of their management....I was misinformed = they were great.

When I experienced "broken" items on a routine trip to FL from TX I worked with Keystone, through the dealer in FL, and they provided me with all new replacement items for me to install/replace because I was living in the trailer in FL and would not take it to the dealer for x amount of time to wait for the installation.

There is a customer relations dept. in Keystone. I would not categorize it as a way to go around the dealer. After being immersed in the "RV world" and trying it on my own, I found that being best friends with your dealer is ......the best deal. You don't have to "give in" or anything like that (not in my nature) but be a regular customer with expectations.

Bottom line is this; make sure you have a great dealer; I have had Stellar results with Camping World. Know your service manager - he is your friend...not your enemy.

All the appliances are warranted by the individual manufacturers. They aren't Keystone products. If you have an issue with one of them and you take it to the dealer they then have to get approval from the appliance manufacturer for repairs....Keystone can't do that.

It's a mess but it is what it is and we all have to "walk the line".

[I.plod]

We had a Jayco that was great, and when it came to upgrade I had my heart set on a new Jayco. After a trip to the dealer's lot, our jaws were left hanging at how badly it was put together. Brand new! I was sad.

This 2014 Keystone has been excellent! But I also have a great dealer.

I'd buy another (but my beloved says this is the LAST one...**snicker, snicker**).

[JRTJH]

To piggyback on Festus2 and sourdough's comments (although theirs are very clear and very accurate), if you buy a new truck and have a problem with the steering, or an issue with a door that won't stay closed, or even a "big hole in the roof" that fills the truck with water when it rains, if you call Chrysler World Headquarters in Auburn Hills, GM Corporate offices in Detroit or Ford Motor Company in Dearborn to discuss the problem with "customer service", you'll find that about halfway through your complaint, the CS representative will interrupt you and tell you that you MUST take your truck to the nearest dealership service department to have it inspected. They won't tell you that they will repair it, nor will they tell you when they will have it back to you, nor will they offer to pay you for your "troubles" caused by the problem. They will only instruct you to go to the dealer. Some may be more "compassionate" than others, some may seem "sympathetic and encouraging" some may seem "business like and short or curt" but none of them will "spring with a promise of a check for your troubles". I find it confusing why people think Keystone should operate any differently. They don't and they won't make promises they can't keep based on "one side of the story" provided by an emotional (or clearly level-headed) customer who is reporting "his side of the problem". They all use scripted, empathetic responses, aimed at de-escalating anger and moving the customer to the dealer's service department for resolution.

NONE of them, (nor KIA, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, etc) would take your address and send you a new roof, replacement door handle or steering box. Nor would they make any "promises" about when or how it would be repaired, nor would they offer reimbursement if you want to fix it yourself. If you complain that the problem is "ruining your vacation" you'll get empathy, but no promise of what/when the results will be finished. This is especially true before the dealer has confirmed for the manufacturer, that there "really is a problem"......

It's not "that bad CS at Keystone", nor is it "that bad Jayco" It's the way manufacturers do business with complex items. We all know of the "guy that called the company and they sent him extra parts he didn't need and now he "got one over on the company and has spare parts because he "fudged the truth" and somebody fell for it. As companies grow and more and more customers "try that tactic" companies grow more firm in their requirement to verify the problem at the dealership before they even discuss solutions. Most will only discuss those solutions with the dealer, not with the customer. That "middleman" called the "company representative" is the "go between" for the manufacturer. You're "HIS" customer, not "Keystone's customer" when it comes to servicing your RV. They built it, but the dealer is responsible to repair it during the warranty. If it may need to be returned to the factory, he and the manufacturer make that decision, it's not predicated on the desires of the customer, but the complexity of the repair and whether or not it can be accomplished in the field. Their objective is to repair it properly for the least amount of money. It's not determined by the desires of the customer so he can be "assured it's done right". Their objective is that it's going to be done right "wherever it's repaired". That may not always happen, but it's the objective.

In today's competitive market, with the exception of a very few "we'll make it right" small ticket manufacturers who will send "commonly failed items" to the customer, you won't get "spare parts" or "legitimate replacements for failed parts" with a phone call. Companies just don't do that any more. Don't blame Keystone, Jayco, Ford, Chrysler or GM for not being responsive. It's the way they all do business today.

Sometimes people think: It's my house, it's where I live when on vacation, so I should get a priority and special treatment because I have a problem. If you look at it from Keystone's perspective, every customer with a problem with his "house, where he lives on vacation" expects that same "special treatment". Where then, do the "average, run of the mill" problems get placed? How can "every problem" get "right now treatment"? How can "you be the only priority"?

Are you being realistic when you demand that some "voice" on the other end of the phone in Goshen be able to effect an "immediate resolution to your priority" when it isn't within their scope and it isn't done in any other business of the same complexity?

[binfordtools]

People ALWAYS feel compelled to post every nuance of negativity about a product when they feel jilted about quality. Although I am new to RV ownership, I have friends with RV's that are not Keystone and they too have had/continue to have quality concerns.

My brand new Keystone TT has some things that from a quality standpoint and even some design aspect, are less than ideal. But, I also realize that it's meant to be lightweight and attempts to cram 50lbs. of [BLEEP] into a 25lb. bag.

I initially thought buying a brand new camper was going to be akin to buying a brand new car. High expectations. Perfection. It's not. No matter what manufacture you go with sans high end stainless steel TT's (and those too most likely will have some issues), I would be willing to bet there will some things you don't care for.

I chose more for floor layout than what the naysayers said about concerns and I am more than happy with the purchase. Guessing this method will prove to make you happy too.

Happy camping!