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Old 02-22-2021, 12:11 PM   #21
Ken / Claudia
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OP has a interesting way to do math. I made that part of RVing really easy, I read the manual about ST tire inflation and did not think I know more or better and followed that guide line. I read the tire sidewall and sticker on the trailer that had the same guideline. That part about RVing is easy.

Only way I have found to end the RV from experiencing road vibration after owning about 7 RVs in 40 years is to not pull it any where. They all do every single one. One could spend endless money on better axles, springs, shocks, hitches, tires and inflation. What about a proper tow vehicle and it's ability's to add to or not, more or less road vibration into the trailer. What about how, what and where you load stuff in the RV. That could play into this whole picture.
In the end a RV is never going to ride, handle like any passenger car or pickup. It's the roads, conditions and the way one drives that will have the most effect on vibration. If you have all the stuff mentioned working as it was suppose to do. Spending 4 grand on upgrades? Likely was a good thing, trying to under inflate tires to get a better ride is silly.
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Old 02-22-2021, 12:24 PM   #22
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Before reducing pressure in tires (which also reduces load carrying capacity) and increasing the potential for catastrophic tire failure causing thousands of dollars of trailer damage, I'd ask:

Have you installed (or considered installing) shock absorber kits on your axles?

If you've added $4000 in upgrades to the axles and haven't considered $375 to install shocks on both axles, then I'd think before "screwing up the tires by playing with tire pressure" I'd entertain spending the money to install shocks...

https://www.etrailer.com/Trailer-Lea...BoC9-wQAvD_BwE
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Old 02-22-2021, 05:14 PM   #23
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I just remembered a math question I have always had about tires.
We can measure the static load of a tire stopped and sitting still. Lets make up a number of 2500 lbs on that tire. Now lift that tire/wheel/axle up, lets start at 1 inch. Than drop it with the static load still at 2500 lbs. How much pressure does the tire take and what weight is than transferred to the scale for that instant. I am guessing it hit and landed with more than a 2500 lb load. Now repeat that on the freeway at 65 mph and a pot hole hit 3 inch's deep. What is the load that tire experiences when it is fully back in contact with the road? More than 2500?
Now pull that same tire for 200 miles on our roads at 65 mph. Does that 2500 lb load the tire is carrying go from 2200 lbs as the tire lifts a bit to say 3000 lb as that tire comes back down over every bump in the road.
If you have ever watched a rolling tire on a vehicle as it goes up and down. Watch the tire profile, It gets skinny going up and fat went it comes back down over the road bumps. No bumps it stays about the same shape.
I say ST tires do that more than passenger/light truck tires.
Lastly maybe we can all agree, the tire maker takes all that into account.
But do they take that abuse into account on a under inflated or overloaded tire and expect it to be fine.
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Old 02-22-2021, 05:25 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken / Claudia View Post
I just remembered a math question I have always had about tires.
We can measure the static load of a tire stopped and sitting still. Lets make up a number of 2500 lbs on that tire. Now lift that tire/wheel/axle up, lets start at 1 inch. Than drop it with the static load still at 2500 lbs. How much pressure does the tire take and what weight is than transferred to the scale for that instant. I am guessing it hit and landed with more than a 2500 lb load. Now repeat that on the freeway at 65 mph and a pot hole hit 3 inch's deep. What is the load that tire experiences when it is fully back in contact with the road? More than 2500?
Now pull that same tire for 200 miles on our roads at 65 mph. Does that 2500 lb load the tire is carrying go from 2200 lbs as the tire lifts a bit to say 3000 lb as that tire comes back down over every bump in the road.
If you have ever watched a rolling tire on a vehicle as it goes up and down. Watch the tire profile, It gets skinny going up and fat went it comes back down over the road bumps. No bumps it stays about the same shape.
I say ST tires do that more than passenger/light truck tires.
Lastly maybe we can all agree, the tire maker takes all that into account.
But do they take that abuse into account on a under inflated or overloaded tire and expect it to be fine.
No one in here ever mentioned having homework???
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Old 02-22-2021, 07:18 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Ken / Claudia View Post
OP has a interesting way to do math. I made that part of RVing really easy, I read the manual about ST tire inflation and did not think I know more or better and followed that guide line. I read the tire sidewall and sticker on the trailer that had the same guideline. That part about RVing is easy.
I'm a pretty thick skinned guy, and I'm sure you don't mean anything by it...but what an ******* response to a question that was posted, in good faith, asking for help.

Why would MorRyde state in their installation documentation to troubleshoot by adjusting air pressure...according to tire manufacturer specifications, proper tire pressure means inflating tires according to individual wheel
weights (as long as a wheel is not overloaded), not necessarily inflating to the maximum pressure as specified on the tire


So answer me this: Why would there ever BE a weight/inflation chart (much less one that matched across different manufacturers) if the whole world just 'set it to 80psi' and left it?

Tends to make a guy think this isn't the best place to go for assistance. Heaven forbid I'd look at a behavior, and take steps to try to make this 'investment' last longer.

I'm not buying the static/dynamic load/pothole argument, either. A tire inflated to handle 12,000 lbs would handle 10,000 lbs of load, otherwise it wouldn't be safe to run at that inflation in a 12,000 lb trailer situation. It's not under-inflated if it's inflated to what the chart states is adequate to the actual measured weight. That blind 80 psi sticker on the front panel is for unlubricated, undamped, raw iron, factory suspension with a motorcycle in the back, full fresh tank, and all of mama's cast iron. I've weighed the trailer at 12,000 lbs, and when I tucked it away for the winter, it tucked just under 10,000 lbs.

All three situations don't require 80 psi.

I thank the members that have contributed, even if the news isn't good. I'll test, probably with a camera in the garage, and report back. It very well may be that an improved suspension, fresh tires, and 80 psi is all the doctor ordered. It may ALSO be that 10 psi less makes things less likely to unscrew the trailer.


/grumble grumble You'd think I ask a question about oil changes grumble or running car tires on a motorcycle grumble or pulling 19,000 lbs with a half ton pickup....
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Old 02-22-2021, 07:41 PM   #26
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I'm a pretty thick skinned guy, and I'm sure you don't mean anything by it...but what an ******* response to a question that was posted, in good faith, asking for help.

Why would MorRyde state in their installation documentation to troubleshoot by adjusting air pressure...according to tire manufacturer specifications, proper tire pressure means inflating tires according to individual wheel
weights (as long as a wheel is not overloaded), not necessarily inflating to the maximum pressure as specified on the tire


So answer me this: Why would there ever BE a weight/inflation chart (much less one that matched across different manufacturers) if the whole world just 'set it to 80psi' and left it?

Tends to make a guy think this isn't the best place to go for assistance. Heaven forbid I'd look at a behavior, and take steps to try to make this 'investment' last longer.

I'm not buying the static/dynamic load/pothole argument, either. A tire inflated to handle 12,000 lbs would handle 10,000 lbs of load, otherwise it wouldn't be safe to run at that inflation in a 12,000 lb trailer situation. It's not under-inflated if it's inflated to what the chart states is adequate to the actual measured weight. That blind 80 psi sticker on the front panel is for unlubricated, undamped, raw iron, factory suspension with a motorcycle in the back, full fresh tank, and all of mama's cast iron. I've weighed the trailer at 12,000 lbs, and when I tucked it away for the winter, it tucked just under 10,000 lbs.

All three situations don't require 80 psi.

I thank the members that have contributed, even if the news isn't good. I'll test, probably with a camera in the garage, and report back. It very well may be that an improved suspension, fresh tires, and 80 psi is all the doctor ordered. It may ALSO be that 10 psi less makes things less likely to unscrew the trailer.


/grumble grumble You'd think I ask a question about oil changes grumble or running car tires on a motorcycle grumble or pulling 19,000 lbs with a half ton pickup....
I think you came in with your mind made up, asked a question wanting "your" answer and don't like anything other than that. I think I would buy all the cameras, put them on the truck, under the trailer etc. , drive many miles, assimilate the footage and view, then.....come to your predetermined conclusion.
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Old 02-22-2021, 07:55 PM   #27
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I think you came in with your mind made up, asked a question wanting "your" answer and don't like anything other than that. I think I would buy all the cameras, put them on the truck, under the trailer etc. , drive many miles, assimilate the footage and view, then.....come to your predetermined conclusion.
Could be, could be. It’s based on a half remembered conversation my dad had with another guy as they were ferrying boats on trailers. I wished I’d paid attention (I was a youngster at the time and he’s since passed away).

Guy was getting beaten up pulling the trailer and near as I can tell, they figured out the actual load on the trailer and set it accordingly to good effect.

Sounds plausible enough, and seems backed up by the other documentation I’ve already mentioned.

What I haven’t brought up, because I didn’t use it after I got it, was that I have an engineering degree. Structural Engineering was all about defining the problem and sizing the solution plus a factor of safety to solve it. “Set it to 80 psi and don’t question it” offends me.
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Old 02-22-2021, 08:06 PM   #28
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.... ďSet it to 80 psi and donít question itĒ offends me.
Sorry you're "offended"... Hope you find your answers... I won't be a part of any further "feeble help from outrageous know-it-alls".... Best luck...
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Old 02-22-2021, 08:11 PM   #29
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Could be, could be. Itís based on a half remembered conversation my dad had with another guy as they were ferrying boats on trailers. I wished Iíd paid attention (I was a youngster at the time and heís since passed away).

Guy was getting beaten up pulling the trailer and near as I can tell, they figured out the actual load on the trailer and set it accordingly to good effect.

Sounds plausible enough, and seems backed up by the other documentation Iíve already mentioned.

What I havenít brought up, because I didnít use it after I got it, was that I have an engineering degree. Structural Engineering was all about defining the problem and sizing the solution plus a factor of safety to solve it. ďSet it to 80 psi and donít question itĒ offends me.
So the easy solution here is inflate YOUR tires to whatever pressure makes YOU happy, that YOU think won't beat your rv to death & is not offensive to the engineer in YOU.....
DONE!
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Old 02-22-2021, 08:12 PM   #30
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Where is CWtheMan when we need him?........somebody grab the hotline!
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Old 02-22-2021, 08:18 PM   #31
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Where is CWtheMan when we need him?........somebody grab the hotline!
methinks Cal has already seen the handwriting on the wall....
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Old 02-22-2021, 08:29 PM   #32
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Sorry you're "offended"... Hope you find your answers... I won't be a part of any further "feeble help from outrageous know-it-alls".... Best luck...
I didn't have a problem with you, or sourdough or Travelin Texas or most of the other people in the thread...it's the 'Gursh, I didn't think I needed to do math 'comments.

You fly a plane, you perform a weight and balance...why wouldn't you do one here?
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Old 02-22-2021, 08:30 PM   #33
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Well you asked a question, I used my simple minded way of figuring what PSI to use and explained why. Not really any math needed. You can feel free to think my method is silly, I will not loose any sleep. I have asked a few questions on here and learned some things. Been told I was wrong a time or two. I think your method is silly and could be dangerous. Oh well.

This is apples to oranges, but all about tires as we drive a motor vehicle. Static load is xx. As we drive, we hit bumps in the road, we brake, we turn. Each event places different loads on the tires. I had all that boring training for investigating traffic crashes. Highway Traffic Safety has documented those forces added to tires through weight transfers when braking and turning. They have terms of Yaw, pitch and roll of a moving vehicle, as those change so do the stresses on tires.
I do not have any numbers, but it was a "OH Crap" to here and see what stresses and weight transfers are added to tires.
The RVs we are talking about have tires placed closer together than on a pickup and will likely not have the high stress/load numbers of a pickups front tires as the RV is pulled on the roadway.. But they do have extra stress than just a static load.
I will adjust air bags PSI for ride, not ST tires on the trailer.

FYI, I did go up a tire grade with a different tire brand and went from 65 to 80 psi. I drove the same trip of about 900 miles about 2 weeks after the last trip on the lighter weight tires. With my truck and trailer listed, not a thing felt or handled any different. The trailer did not bounce, sway any more or any less. That I could tell from towing or checking stuff out during stops. I thought it would feel more sable and bounce more. If it did, change anything it was so slight it made no difference.
My opinion, Shocks might help the vibration or bounce better than any other changes. That's what the purpose of a shock is, control bounce caused by the springs.
Your free to beleive what you want.
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Old 02-22-2021, 08:33 PM   #34
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I could see the handwriting by the pointless questions....I'm sure the "engineering" degree will help in this sort of like a "very close" family members PHD in marine biology helps us catch fish He tells me I just don't understand "academia"..... I'm out.
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Old 02-22-2021, 08:35 PM   #35
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Thanks Ken, I appreciate that.

Loads on these tires are significantly different depending on where I’ve driven. Original old tires on the flat...no problem. Mountain two lane as they were nearing end of life, they were VERY hot. Replacement tires, even at 90 psi, were much cooler coming out of the high country. I will NOT be running them at 90 psi.
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Old 02-23-2021, 01:18 AM   #36
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You want answers but have never provided the specifics. You say Keystone put 7000# axles on a trailer that clearly doesnít need anything above 6000#. The bottom line there is certification. What does the vehicle certification label depict for GAWR values?

Keystone would never put ST235/80R16 LRE tires on 7000# certified axles on a 2017 trailer, they donít qualify.

We have to speculate on certified vehicle recommended inflation pressures being 80 PSI because that would be the norm for your trailer by Keystone.

If your replacement tires have a designated size of ST235/80R16, the correct inflation pressure for them would be 80 PSI. If the tires have a higher load range than the OE tires, 80 PSI would be the minimum for the replacements, options would start there and extend to tire sidewall max.

You barked up the wrong tree with aviation weight comparisons. I was an aviation structural mechanic for the USN for more than 40 years and have certified weight and balance training. The starting point would be the aircraftís certified GVW. (22 ply rated aircraft tires fitted to a F4-B aircraft operating from a shore airfield have a cut and dried minimum of 350 PSI). Those same tires being aired for carrier operations would be set at sidewall max, 500 PSI.

To gain valid information for your questions youíre going to have to provide valid information, because all youíre currently getting is guesstimates.

Thatís the end of the path for me in this thread
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Old 02-23-2021, 03:39 AM   #37
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So maybe I didnít fully lay out the question. Attached are the OLD axle, prior to upgrading to wet bolts, upgraded shackles, an additional leaf and CRE3000 equalizers. They -are- 7000 lb axles. Thereís a photo of the old tires, youíre gonna have to assume the new ones are this size and also suitable to task. I reviewed them when the tire guy in the little mountain town installed them. And the relevant stickers on the trailer. Cat scale weight is for trailer loaded for a normal camping trip and full fresh tanks.

The only point to this query, which I have inadequately relayed was:

Based on all things healthy and equal, would lowering the tire pressure (as stated in the MORRyde documentation, and standard inflation charts) and an otherwise healthy upgraded suspension to something like 65-70psi, which is suitable to a 12,000 lb trailer load situation, on a trailer that currently weighs 10,000.lbs...result in a ride that was less traumatic to the trailer?
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Old 02-23-2021, 09:03 AM   #38
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So maybe I didn’t fully lay out the question. Attached are the OLD axle, prior to upgrading to wet bolts, upgraded shackles, an additional leaf and CRE3000 equalizers. They -are- 7000 lb axles. There’s a photo of the old tires, you’re gonna have to assume the new ones are this size and also suitable to task. I reviewed them when the tire guy in the little mountain town installed them. And the relevant stickers on the trailer. Cat scale weight is for trailer loaded for a normal camping trip and full fresh tanks.

The only point to this query, which I have inadequately relayed was:

Based on all things healthy and equal, would lowering the tire pressure (as stated in the MORRyde documentation, and standard inflation charts) and an otherwise healthy upgraded suspension to something like 65-70psi, which is suitable to a 12,000 lb trailer load situation, on a trailer that currently weighs 10,000.lbs...result in a ride that was less traumatic to the trailer?
There is an error in your certification label. The right thing to do is inform Keystone. The error is with the tire designated size. ST235/80R16 LRE tires do not qualify for service on 7000# vehicle certified GAWRs on 2017 trailer models because of the RVIA load capacity reserve recommendation. Keystone has only two options to fix the error. Upgrade the tires to a designated size that will satisfy the RVIA recommendation or correct the GAWRs with a new certification label for certified 6000# axles. Either choice will cause them to call a recall on themselves.

IMO, Keystone errored when setting the GAWRs. The trailer's weight clearly calls for 6000# axels. Even those would be greater than what is needed to certify the GAWRs on that trailer.

When certifying 7000# axles on that trailer, it gives the appearance that it's okay for the consumer the consumer to overload the GVWR by more than 1500#.

I know, I said I was done with this thread but I can't overlook an obvious mistake by the vehicle manufacturer.

In case anyone is curious about the math, it's simple. Keystone specs say the vehicle has a GVWR of 13000#. They list the tongue weight at 1445#. To determine axle minimums the tongue weight is deducted from the GVWR and divided by 2. Dexter builds a 5800# axle and it could have been used. However Keystone's best option was 6000# axles. The ST235/80R16 LRE is more than just adequate for 6000# vehicle certified axles.
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Old 02-23-2021, 12:30 PM   #39
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Knowing how this industry operates, is it possible they threw what they had under the trailer to move it out the door? I can see the discrepancy, and I can also see how it might be undesirable (stiff suspension because it's intended for a heavier use case than is encountered normally.

It's a 2017 Impact 312, I'm not sure how interested they're going to be in revisiting it.

I apologize for my tone earlier in the thread, I didn't provide enough detail for y'all to make an informed response and took some of the replies as condescending. I'm here because I want to understand it, both to maintain the 'investment' and because it's something I don't fully know. I've noticed it enough times here that anything that deviates from a response is 'You came in with your mind made up' and a pat on the head. In this case, I've got conflicting documentation, and by your assessment, equipment that isn't correctly matched from the manufacturer.
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Old 02-23-2021, 01:30 PM   #40
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Mike, the reason some of our responses seem (or are) condescending is because of the large number of posts we receive (as do all forums) from newbies who are simply looking for approval for their bad choices. Tundras towing 36' fivers, buying any RV tire with the word 'King" in the name, vacationers booking 10 day stays at Badlands National Park, the list goes on and on. Certainly the most common we receive on this forum is the uninformed new owner of a 'beast' 150/1500 that can do it all towing a 38' Cougar and can't figure out why his world is crashing down around his internet persona.
Some members take it in stride and eventually fade away, some take it to heart and visit the truck dealer. Those of us with black hearts (Yep, some Texans, some Canadians, some Californians, a Marylander or two, you all know who you are) particularly enjoy having fun at this type member's expense. It can't be all seriousness here. We have to talk good food, good beer, fun places to visit and making fun of the members who seem deserving.
If you stay here long enough you'll see what I'm saying.
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