Frozen water lines

[Dave Smith]

We have a 2021 Keystone Premier 30RIPR. supposedly has heater underbelly, we have put foam board insulation skirting up and a small portable electric heater underneath. but still when the temperature drops into the teens the waterlines freeze. Any suggestions other than waiting till Saturday when it warms up into the 40s. Do I dare consider putting a propane heater under the trailer?

[chuckster57]

DO NOT use a propane heater underneath unless you want to be real warm for a short period of time and then be without shelter.

Is the underneath completely sealed from the outside? Are you using the furnace?

[JRTJH]

I wouldl NOT put a propane heater under the trailer !!!!! Heat rises and there's a flammable plastic covering on the underbelly that's only a few inches above that "open flame from a propane heater"....

Depending on where you are and how often you move the trailer, you could/should consider skirting around the trailer and a couple of incandescent drop lights under the dump valve and low point drain locations to help keep those two areas from freezing. You can make skirting from something as simple as duct tape and clear plastic drop cloths, vinyl or canvas material and snap fasteners, rigid foam board around 1/2" thick or even mobile home skirting, cut to fit the terrain around the trailer.... If you move frequently, then you need to consider the effort to skirt, unskirt, pack and then redo at every campsite...

If you are simply on a 2 or 3 day camping trip and have the inconvenience of frozen plumbing, you might try "literal dry camping" (use bottled water while leaving the trailer winterized) or you could postpone that 3 day trip until warmer weather....

Simply put, Ultra Lite trailers with a "heated underbelly" (advertising claim, not true all weather capabilitiy) are anything but cold weather capable.... They should be considered more a "3 season trailer" not a "4 season trailer"... True cold weather camping in an ultra-lite trailer with temperatures in the teens is not compatable with a 3 season camper and comfortable warmth with running water" without much more than "parking and leveling".......

[sourdough]

Agree with the others; do not use a propane heater or any source of flame under your RV. They go up almost instantaneously when ignited.

You don't give your circumstances so don't know if this is for a short trip or you're trying to live in it. If trying to live in it in cold weather you are going to have to do some "modifying" to make it acceptable in extended sub freezing weather.

I spent 2 winters many, many years ago working out of my RV and it got really cold. My saving grace was going home on most weekends. When things had issues I had a weekend to then modify whatever the weak point was then go back and do it again until everything stayed working. No ducted heat to the underbelly or even covered underbelly for that matter.

The idea about drop lights would help and the skirting would help them work better. Are you running the furnace? It's the only source of heat for the underbelly and if you aren't using it your problems will be compounded.

[CedarCreekWoody]

Absolutely do not put a propane heater under there!! If you don't set it on fire the carbon monoxide will kill you. It happened last week to a young guy in Texas.
Are you living in this full time?

[dutchmensport]

If you are not running the furnace and using electric heat, no matter what you attempt, it's not going to keep the water lines from freezing is such temperatures. You need to run the furnace, and yes.... that costs propane.

I suggest, cranking up the temperature on your propane furnace and allow it to heat up the underbelly of your camper. Give it a few hours and water will start flowing again (hopefully) if you don't have any broken or cracked water lines or broken junctions in the line.

[LnS]

A question on the subject of underbelly heating, would the following work?
Running the propane furnace exhaust vent through insulated metal ducting to the underside? There is a tremendous amount of heat being exhausted and ducting it under into an insulated / skirted open space has to work?

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by LnS

A question on the subject of underbelly heating, would the following work?
Running the propane furnace exhaust vent through insulated metal ducting to the underside? There is a tremendous amount of heat being exhausted and ducting it under into an insulated / skirted open space has to work?

Short answer: That "tremendous amount of heat" also contains all the exhaust fumes from the furnace combustion. Notably, the carbon monoxide that could readily become a "silent killer" for anyone unlucky enough to be inside the trailer during your "experiment in reclaiming lost heat"....

Shorter answer: HELL NO !!!!!

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

Short answer: That "tremendous amount of heat" also contains all the exhaust fumes from the furnace combustion. Notably, the carbon monoxide that could readily become a "silent killer" for anyone unlucky enough to be inside the trailer during your "experiment in reclaiming lost heat"....

Shorter answer: HELL NO !!!!!

John, we almost had a Darwin Award winner!

[jasin1]

One of these ( not this brand) is being used on a house I’m working on right now..they don’t have propane tanks installed so I can’t start up the furnace..it’s plugged into a dryer or range outlet at the panel. It was heating the house pretty good.

You can rent them from tool and equipment rental places. Would be a lot safer then propane but still wouldn’t use it… The one I saw had a cord on it but this Amazon one you need to hardwire a cord

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by Dave Smith

We have a 2021 Keystone Premier 30RIPR. supposedly has heater underbelly, we have put foam board insulation skirting up and a small portable electric heater underneath. but still when the temperature drops into the teens the waterlines freeze. Any suggestions other than waiting till Saturday when it warms up into the 40s. Do I dare consider putting a propane heater under the trailer?

Are you running off the tank with pump, or city water with heated hose? You will need to run the furnace to get heat into the underbelly. Our furnace has an electric add on unit and it stays at about 44 degrees when outside temps are in the teens. I keep a remote temperature sensor in the basement, hanging off the water line near the outside wall.

[Scttw]

Originally Posted by rhagfo

John, we almost had a Darwin Award winner!

You took the words right out of my mouth (Rip Meatloaf)

[LnS]

Originally Posted by rhagfo

John, we almost had a Darwin Award winner!

ok, so propane exhaust fumes being the problem under the carriage but not inside the cabin when you use the stove or oven? The ventilation under the carriage has to be better then inside the cabin. 'splain to me Lucy Does the furnace have an incomplete burn of the gas?
That aside the original issue was creating a warm environment under the carriage to eliminate icing. If the application is for a full time situation then the metal ducting from the furnace exhaust to the underbelly to provide radiant heating but terminating beyond the skirting is a possible solution.
Another would be to provide a passive ventilation flow with a high and a low opening in the skirting and dump the warm air into the underbelly space. Teepees stay warm and safe using such a method.

Anyway, it's a lot of valuable heat there to figure out how to safely use.

Hang onto your award Darwin, I've already passed along my imaginative genes.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by LnS

ok, so propane exhaust fumes being the problem under the carriage but not inside the cabin when you use the stove or oven? The ventilation under the carriage has to be better then inside the cabin. 'splain to me Lucy Does the furnace have an incomplete burn of the gas?
That aside the original issue was creating a warm environment under the carriage to eliminate icing. If the application is for a full time situation then the metal ducting from the furnace exhaust to the underbelly to provide radiant heating but terminating beyond the skirting is a possible solution.
Another would be to provide a passive ventilation flow with a high and a low opening in the skirting and dump the warm air into the underbelly space. Teepees stay warm and safe using such a method.

Anyway, it's a lot of valuable heat there to figure out how to safely use.

Hang onto your award Darwin, I've already passed along my imaginative genes.

OK, the warning below is from the Atwood range owner's manual... Note that it says to only use the burners or over with adequate ventilation... CO is the reason.

This warning is in the Suburban furnace installation manual:

CAUTION! Combustion air must not be drawn from the living area. All air
for combustion must be drawn from the outside atmosphere. All exhaust
gases must be vented to the outside atmosphere - never inside the RV.
Therefore, it is essential to insure that the vent cap and tube assemblies
are properly installed

The properly installed vent cap and tube (intake and exhaust air) is only correctly installed when it is drawn from and exhausted to the outside atmosphere.. That's NOT "in the belly of the trailer"....

It's simply not a smart idea to vent propane exhaust into any closed space. There's a reason manufacturers warn owners about safe operation which includes abatement of exhaust dangers from CO accumulations... YMMV

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

OK, the warning below is from the Atwood range owner's manual... Note that it says to only use the burners or over with adequate ventilation... CO is the reason.

This warning is in the Suburban furnace installation manual:

CAUTION! Combustion air must not be drawn from the living area. All air
for combustion must be drawn from the outside atmosphere. All exhaust
gases must be vented to the outside atmosphere - never inside the RV.
Therefore, it is essential to insure that the vent cap and tube assemblies
are properly installed

The properly installed vent cap and tube (intake and exhaust air) is only correctly installed when it is drawn from and exhausted to the outside atmosphere.. That's NOT "in the belly of the trailer"....

It's simply not a smart idea to vent propane exhaust into any closed space. There's a reason manufacturers warn owners about safe operation which includes abatement of exhaust dangers from CO accumulations... YMMV

This is a matter of common sense and common concern for one's safety. Carbon monoxide kills unwitting folks every year due to either ignorance or "lack of concern"? Knew 2 folks that went camping in a slide in camper using a propane heater for "heat" in cold weather....they don't go camping, or anywhere, anymore. The exhaust is meant to be "exhausted" from the RV, not recycled inside and inhaled....for a short period of time while you are asleep - folks commit suicide by doing that.

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by dutchmensport

If you are not running the furnace and using electric heat, no matter what you attempt, it's not going to keep the water lines from freezing is such temperatures. You need to run the furnace, and yes.... that costs propane.

I suggest, cranking up the temperature on your propane furnace and allow it to heat up the underbelly of your camper. Give it a few hours and water will start flowing again (hopefully) if you don't have any broken or cracked water lines or broken junctions in the line.

Not for all of us Dutchman, I run the furnace on electric using RV Comfort Systems “Cheap Heat”. We have been into the teens, and our 32’ 5er is warm and comfortable, no frozen water lines in the 5er. The belly is enclosed, but no skirting.

[jasin1]

Originally Posted by LnS

ok, so propane exhaust fumes being the problem under the carriage but not inside the cabin when you use the stove or oven? The ventilation under the carriage has to be better then inside the cabin. 'splain to me Lucy Does the furnace have an incomplete burn of the gas?
That aside the original issue was creating a warm environment under the carriage to eliminate icing. If the application is for a full time situation then the metal ducting from the furnace exhaust to the underbelly to provide radiant heating but terminating beyond the skirting is a possible solution.
Another would be to provide a passive ventilation flow with a high and a low opening in the skirting and dump the warm air into the underbelly space. Teepees stay warm and safe using such a method.

Anyway, it's a lot of valuable heat there to figure out how to safely use.

Hang onto your award Darwin, I've already passed along my imaginative genes.

You might think it’s an original or clever idea to use the flue exhaust to heat the underside of the trailer but you my friend are completely wrong on this one.

1st thing though is yes gas stoves and cooktops can produce CO but they are intermittent use appliances..and they are a much lower btu output per use.
Typically unless it’s thanksgiving you would only have one or two burners and maybe the oven going but usually not all for the same amount of time.
It’s also during waking hours where you get air changes in the room from people entering and leaving the home.

And as far as “splain to me Lucy does the furnace have incomplete burn of the gas?”… no it doesn’t ..AS ITS DESIGNED…BUT if you change any of the parameters..ie ..extending or changing the design of the exhaust/flue pipe your gonna effect how efficient that burn process is.


The exhaust is designed to exit the furnace at a high enough temp that it quickly rises and dissipates away from people and other trailers

If you try a dump it under the trailer you will be exposing the underside of the trailer with moist corrosive exhaust gas that will cool and linger and damage the rv itself..this exhaust gas would be then mixed in with the combustion air for the furnace and water heater causing even more incomplete combustion starting a vicious deadly cycle.

The corrosive moist gas would probably rust the bottom of the trailer unless it was made of stainless steel like the furnace exhaust cap

And you will probably say “ I only want the flue pipe to run through the underbelly and not exhaust in there”

Well that’s a big problem because it will cool the flue gases and again cause moisture but this time the moisture will flow back into the furnace and rot it out.

90% furnaces use this method but have anticorrorosive secondary heat exchangers to capture the relatively small (10%) extra heat BUT produce a great deal of condensation doing so..it flows back to the furnace and has to be drained to a non freezing drain…these furnaces are usually always in a controlled climate not on the side of a trailer.
..the little bit of radiant heat you would get from the flue pipe would never heat the underbelly without causing a mountain of dangerous and corrosive conditions.

If it was a good idea it would have been done long ago…

Ever since we first started using fire and combustion appliances people quickly figured out that….. “fire good” .. “smoke bad”

[LnS]

Thanks JRTJH for the explanation that "The properly installed vent cap and tube (intake and exhaust air)" That is the key piece of information I did not have so thank you for that. Knowing that, my original idea will not work.

[CedarCreekWoody]

As I mentioned earlier there was a young guy found dead in his camper in Texas a week ago. He was using his stove burners for heat and he was killed by the CO gas. It is not something to experiment with.

[dutchmensport]

Originally Posted by rhagfo

Not for all of us Dutchman, I run the furnace on electric using RV Comfort Systems “Cheap Heat”. We have been into the teens, and our 32’ 5er is warm and comfortable, no frozen water lines in the 5er. The belly is enclosed, but no skirting.

Let me stand corrected. Supplemental heat under the camper to heat up a skirted area under the trailer. Unless one is using a salamander under there.

If you have electric heat built into your RV furnace, then yes, that will blow warm air into the underbelly. I was referring to electric space heater type stuff under the trailer will not be sufficient. The space is just too large.