Dealer Responsibility (as of 2013)

[KanTC]

While searching for some info yesterday I noticed something "new" in the 2013 Owners Manual ---

the topic of 'Dealer Responsibility' has been discussed here from time to time, and I thought our members might find
this change very interesting. Good-to-know info..... and, hopefully all of the dealers 'got the memo' too.


Chapter 1 - Page 5: Dealer Service; Dealer Responsibilities [IN PART]

#1. Provide timely service under the terms of the limited one year warranty whether the product was purchased from
them or from another Keystone dealership.

http://www.keystonerv.com/media/7289...al_4-25-13.pdf




Terri, the Chevy co-pilot

[JRTJH]

Thanks for the updated information.

It looks like Keystone is taking a pro-active approach to making sure the customer is cared for. That's not the same "oh well" approach from Forest River. Their owner's manual essentially says, BUY LOCAL (or you might not get service).....

Good to know, Keystone is different.

[x96mnn]

Not sure if this will fix the good dealer/bad dealer dilemma but a step in the right direction.

[f6bits]

Being pessimistic, just because it's in writing doesn't mean it'll be easy to do. A lousy dealer won't have any problem coming up with excuses why they can't provide timely service, and it'll be up to you to fight them (or call Keystone) every step of the way.

Keystone shouldn't have put this in writing. It should be the norm.

[davidjsimons]

Many dealers sell units from more than one manufacturer. If a dealer sells a Forrest River product and they don't have a strong position on warranty service on a unit that that particular dealer didn't sell, but Keystone does, I know whose unit will be worked on first. I'm glad they put it in writing. That puts the dealer on notice as well as informing the customer. No dealer wants a manufacturers rep that stays on their case with respect to warranty claims.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Javi]

I have a great ocean front lot just outside of Yuma, Arizona.....

[Essness]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

Thanks for the updated information.

It looks like Keystone is taking a pro-active approach to making sure the customer is cared for. That's not the same "oh well" approach from Forest River. Their owner's manual essentially says, BUY LOCAL (or you might not get service).....

Good to know, Keystone is different.

I always thought FR's position was interesting on this point. I actually had a couple local dealers quote FR on it. My last one was a FR product. When the local dealers wouldnt deal on the purchase, I went with the one 150 miles away that actually wanted my business. Then I found a local dealer that was authorised for other FR products to do the service for us both paid and warranty.

I personally feel better that Keystone has taken this position.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by Essness

I always thought FR's position was interesting on this point. I actually had a couple local dealers quote FR on it. My last one was a FR product. When the local dealers wouldnt deal on the purchase, I went with the one 150 miles away that actually wanted my business. Then I found a local dealer that was authorised for other FR products to do the service for us both paid and warranty.

I personally feel better that Keystone has taken this position.

This is only speculation on my part, but I'd tend to believe that THOR, Keystone's parent company had a bit to do with the change in philosophy. Thor also owns Airstream and several other "high end" RV names. Those owners put literally hundreds of thousands into an RV. To be jacked around by a "lazy dealer" or one that "just takes care of my own customers" puts some of those "high roller owners" on edge. When we had our Airstream, we were always welome at any dealership service department. They all had refreshment centers, plush waiting rooms and "we'll get right on your problem" attitudes..... I never was asked, "Are you one of our regular customers?" Of course, it seems that the only time any RV breaks down is when you're away from home, so dragging it back from Florida or from Arizona so 'my dealer" can fix it is a pretty "outdated" way to handle service work for a mobile product.

For whatever the reason, I'm glad it's in writing..... Let's just hope that making the change in the manual wasn't a mistake made by a junior customer service rep who got promoted to proof reader in the warranty department LOL

[suza]

We chose to "buy local" as we do with everything we purchase. Our dealer is a family owned business. They treat their customers well and offer excellent service. That's why they are still in business, after 45 years. Not only did we help the local economy by keeping our money "at home", but we got a deal better than any "big city dealer" who wouldn't care an iota about us after we towed our RV home.

[Dadstoy]

Ive been waiting a month to get a couch repaired. I'm about to start raising cain with my dealer.

[Bob Landry]

The Customer Service statement looks good on paper, but I would really rather see Keystone adopt that idea for their own customer service so when you call them needing information you can actually get past the girl call screener and get to someone who has and is willing to give out information you need. Many of us are quite capable of fixing our own plumbing and electrical issues. The idea that that will not even tell you were to find an electrical connection, for liability reasons, is simply absurd.

[JRTJH]

Bob, I totally agree with you on the CS issues. But it's not just Keystone. I well remember when I bought my F150, I contacted Ford CS and Ford engineering services trying to get some data on just exactly what the different components were between the 9700 lb towing package and the 11,300 towing package. You know, to this day, nobody at Ford was willing to tell me if the hitch assembly was the same, whether there was a difference in the spring/shock assemblies, or what constituted the components to build the heavier tow rating. All I ever got, in phone calls, emails, letters, and frustrated repeats of all of those was the statement, "Contact your local Ford dealer for additional information."

I finally got with the local Ford parts guy, we started looking up the different Ford part numbers on two trucks (by VIN) one with the lighter towing package and one with the heavier towing package. All we could find on the part numbers was the same parts were installed on both the 9700 and the 11300 tow ratings. So, is Ford guilty of the same "I won't tell you" attitude that we complain of with Keystone??? They sure weren't "forthcoming" with information even on what parts were installed on my truck.

It would be great if Keystone would provide the engineering drawings or at least a block diagram of what flows where, but it's not something they currently provide to customers. With my recent trailer repairs, I did a lot of talking with the service manager at CW. It's not just customers that get the "not available" answer from Keystone. When he was working on my roof, there was an issue with some of the superstructure. He finally wound up talking with one of the engineering team to discuss the repair as there were no drawings/structural blueprints available in the CS department or in the Dealer's Support offices at Keystone.

[Essness]

Originally Posted by suza

We chose to "buy local" as we do with everything we purchase. Our dealer is a family owned business. They treat their customers well and offer excellent service. That's why they are still in business, after 45 years. Not only did we help the local economy by keeping our money "at home", but we got a deal better than any "big city dealer" who wouldn't care an iota about us after we towed our RV home.

I always prefer to support my local economy. However, ther is always a break point. My local dealers, (within 75 miles) quoted the FR web page about service being given priority based on having purchased from them. But yet their price and attitudes were completely unacceptable.
I have a CW 22 miles from my house in IL, 5 years ago when I started looking at campers they were very dismissive and not willing to give me any time to answer questions. (It was November) So, I found anther dealer who happend to be in IA. When it came time to buy the current rig, I went to the CW in Madison, WI (64 miles from my house) because they gave me the time and answered all my questions. It cost me more in gas but I'll be damned if I'm going to give the folks in IL any business based on how I was treated when I was looking to get started.
The FR product I bought in IA was serviced by a local family owned business that was a FR dealer but not a dealer for my family of product. They were great and I paid them a lot of money to perform all sorts of upgrades to the unit.

Bottom line, treat me right and we will both enjoy doing business together.

[Bob Landry]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

Bob, I totally agree with you on the CS issues. But it's not just Keystone. I well remember when I bought my F150, I contacted Ford CS and Ford engineering services trying to get some data on just exactly what the different components were between the 9700 lb towing package and the 11,300 towing package. You know, to this day, nobody at Ford was willing to tell me if the hitch assembly was the same, whether there was a difference in the spring/shock assemblies, or what constituted the components to build the heavier tow rating. All I ever got, in phone calls, emails, letters, and frustrated repeats of all of those was the statement, "Contact your local Ford dealer for additional information."

I finally got with the local Ford parts guy, we started looking up the different Ford part numbers on two trucks (by VIN) one with the lighter towing package and one with the heavier towing package. All we could find on the part numbers was the same parts were installed on both the 9700 and the 11300 tow ratings. So, is Ford guilty of the same "I won't tell you" attitude that we complain of with Keystone??? They sure weren't "forthcoming" with information even on what parts were installed on my truck.

It would be great if Keystone would provide the engineering drawings or at least a block diagram of what flows where, but it's not something they currently provide to customers. With my recent trailer repairs, I did a lot of talking with the service manager at CW. It's not just customers that get the "not available" answer from Keystone. When he was working on my roof, there was an issue with some of the superstructure. He finally wound up talking with one of the engineering team to discuss the repair as there were no drawings/structural blueprints available in the CS department or in the Dealer's Support offices at Keystone.

I once asked KS for an electrical diagram and was told that there was no such diagram. Then I asked them if they just handed each assembly line person a few rolls of wire and told them to just go do what looked right. I then called BS on the whole thing and hung up. Since then, I've just tracked down, sorted out, and repaired my own problems. It's a lot less stress doing it that way.

You can bet that I'll make a few phantom calls before I but my next trailer, and if I don't like the answers Even automobiles have aftermarket service manuals available to the buying public.

[Bob Landry]

Originally Posted by Essness

I always prefer to support my local economy. However, ther is always a break point. My local dealers, (within 75 miles) quoted the FR web page about service being given priority based on having purchased from them. But yet their price and attitudes were completely unacceptable.
I have a CW 22 miles from my house in IL, 5 years ago when I started looking at campers they were very dismissive and not willing to give me any time to answer questions. (It was November) So, I found anther dealer who happend to be in IA. When it came time to buy the current rig, I went to the CW in Madison, WI (64 miles from my house) because they gave me the time and answered all my questions. It cost me more in gas but I'll be damned if I'm going to give the folks in IL any business based on how I was treated when I was looking to get started.
The FR product I bought in IA was serviced by a local family owned business that was a FR dealer but not a dealer for my family of product. They were great and I paid them a lot of money to perform all sorts of upgrades to the unit.

Bottom line, treat me right and we will both enjoy doing business together.

I agree. In my area there is a dealer with two stores. They are like night and day. One I won't walk into for any reason. The other, although they weren't an Outback dealer when I bought mine, they service it with a smile when I need something, and I get what I think is a quality job. I did buy my first trailer from them and maybe that helps, but when I walk into a service or parts department, ask for something, and get a response like I just upset the guy's whole day, he doesn't have to worry about me being an imposition again.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by Bob Landry

...I then called BS on the whole thing and hung up. Since then, I've just tracked down, sorted out, and repaired my own problems. It's a lot less stress doing it that way.

... Even automobiles have aftermarket service manuals available to the buying public.

There are blueprints and engineering diagrams available. Heck, there's even flow sheets that indicate what must be finished before the trailer in assembly can move to the next station on the line. All of that is available "to Keystone" but not to anyone else. I can't explain why they protect that data so closely, I've no idea. Yes it is frustrating, very much so. But neither you nor I can change that.

As for aftermarket service manuals for automobiles, you're right, they are available, but Ford's "proprietary data" isn't included in those manuals, nor, apparently is it available to the public. I finally gave up trying to determine the "engineering differences" between the 9,700 lb and the 11,300 lb towing packages. All the engine, transmission, suspension and hardware such as hitches, bolts, frame have identical part numbers and are interchangable between the two packages, so what makes one "assemby of parts" stronger than the other? Only Ford knows and they ain't talking...... Just as Keystone knows how they route the wiring, plumbing and ducting on their RV's and they ain't sharing that information. I've no clue why they wouldn't share it. After all, if you really wanted to, you could completely disassemble an RV and make your own drawings of exactly where everything is. On vehicles, that is pretty much available online (at least to dealers who are usually happy to share the information) complete with pictures of how the components are assembled. I've used that kind of proprietary data many times and find it very useful. It makes a tough job really much easier to do. It would be great if Keystone shared similar data, but I don't see it happening and I can't fathom why.

A picture is worth a thousand words, and at least words can guide you through a mess, but not with Keystone.

[Bob Landry]

I'm wondering if there may be some value in creating our own construction database, maybe a sticky. There are a lot of things that have been discovered and uncovered by owners doing mods that have ben shared in threads about the mod or upgrade.
I'm just still trying to figure out what kind of liability Keystone thinks they are protecting themselves against by refusing to tell us where a wire or water connection is located.

[suza]

Originally Posted by Essness

I always prefer to support my local economy. However, ther is always a break point. My local dealers, (within 75 miles) quoted the FR web page about service being given priority based on having purchased from them. But yet their price and attitudes were completely unacceptable.
I have a CW 22 miles from my house in IL, 5 years ago when I started looking at campers they were very dismissive and not willing to give me any time to answer questions. (It was November) So, I found anther dealer who happend to be in IA. When it came time to buy the current rig, I went to the CW in Madison, WI (64 miles from my house) because they gave me the time and answered all my questions. It cost me more in gas but I'll be damned if I'm going to give the folks in IL any business based on how I was treated when I was looking to get started.
The FR product I bought in IA was serviced by a local family owned business that was a FR dealer but not a dealer for my family of product. They were great and I paid them a lot of money to perform all sorts of upgrades to the unit.

Bottom line, treat me right and we will both enjoy doing business together.

I agree, there is great value in service after the sale. We are fortuante to have a great service department within an hours drive of our house. Coming from a small town, I appreciate doing business with people who know you, call you by name, and take pride in serving their customers well. It's not always about the "bottom line".

[bucketman]

@JRTJH Could it be the size or the addition of the transmission cooler that would increase the towing load. I think I asked the same question at a dealer and if I recall, that is what they told me. Maybe not

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by bucketman

@JRTJH Could it be the size or the addition of the transmission cooler that would increase the towing load. I think I asked the same question at a dealer and if I recall, that is what they told me. Maybe not

In 2010, the transmission coolers were the same part number. The only difference I could find (with lots of help from the parts guy) was the rear bumper on the 11,300 tow package was a heavier bumper. But that makes no sense to me because the rear bumper is not connected to the hitch receiver. I could understand towing with a ball on the bumper that the rating would be increased, but towing with the receiver takes the bumper out of the picture. In later models, the transmission cooler may be different, but in 2010, they were both the same. I still, after almost 4 years of owning that truck, never found the answer to that question.... Ford keeps secrets as well as Keystone does LOL