Safe to tow?

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

Marshall,

The yellow sticker in Post #1 is the trailer sticker. The yellow sticker in Post #6 is the truck sticker. I did the same "double take" when I first read the initial post.

I know the the truck is post #6. What you quoted was my reply that the sticker does not say the payload includes a 150lb driver and full fuel tank. Seems like a lot of confusion in this thread.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by flybouy

I know the the truck is post #6. What you quoted was my reply that the sticker does not say the payload includes a 150lb driver and full fuel tank. Seems like a lot of confusion in this thread.

Seems to fit....and I was headed to bed....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9poCAuYT-s

[SummitPond]

Originally Posted by flybouy

A load rating of 2,233 - 1,400 = 833 lbs. Remains of your load capacity. That 833 get's reduced by the weight of you, DW, the Yorkie, fuel, and anything else you have put in the truck since you bought it including floor mats, bed liner, tool box, tools, etc.
<snip>

Originally Posted by rhagfo

Payload on sticker allows 150# for driver and a full tank of fuel.
DW and are not small, we have a 30# Beagle and her bedding in the back seat. I also have a in bed tool box full of some heavy and not so heavy stuff AND a 5th wheel hitch and adapter frame and we used 1,411# of our payload. I see it as doable within numbers, but likely close.

I thought I had read elsewhere on this forum (and as stated immediately above) that the curb weight included a 150# driver and a full tank of fuel.

I am not good at web searches, but I did find this: [citation]

Curb weight means the weight of a motor vehicle with standard equipment including the maximum capacity of fuel, oil, and coolant, and, if so equipped, air conditioning and additional weight optional engine.

This particular Code of Federal Regulations I cited above only applies to GVWR of 10K# or less; I did not go digging for the one applicable to GVWR greater than 10K#.

The Code of Federal Regulations, IMHO, is a spiderweb of interconnected and not-well-referenced laws. While I did not find any allowance for the driver's weight, I'm not saying it might be found somewhere else in this rat's nest of regulations. My hat is doffed to those who are clever enough to dig out the nuggets of information that are out there, but it appears to be beyond my current tolerance level!

[Northofu1]

Just my opinion.
I personally would not tow a 37' / 38' bumper pull (especially) or 5er with my 2500.
I like some cushion in my numbers.

[JRTJH]

Payload calculations, towing capacity and much of the "other stuff found in large print in advertising material" is a marketing tool and does not reflect any "standardized computation formula". How the payload is determined varies from manufacturer to manufacturer and from year to year. From what I can "SWAG" it's based more on "how do I beat the competition" or "how do I claim the best in class trophy"...

Here are a couple of quotes from the RAM Towing Guide 10/14/2019: https://www.ramtrucks.com/BodyBuilde...1D%2BFDNq7c%0A

"Note: The truck curb weight values shown in
the Body Builders Guide represent the lightest
available version of that truck configuration
with no optional equipment. Actual produced
trucks frequently weigh several hundred
pounds more than the published values.
Note: The Maximum Trailer Weight and Payload in
the Towing Tables are based on one driver
weighing 150 lbs."

"These ratings must be
decreased by the weight of any optional
equipment, trailer hitch, cargo in the tow vehicle,
and passengers other than the driver. To
determine the GTW, subtract the tow vehicle curb
weight and 150 pounds (allowance for the
driver) from the GCWR"

In the 2019 Ford F-150 Owner's Manual, page 280:

"You decide
to go golfing. Is there enough load
capacity to carry you, four of your
friends and all the golf bags? You
and four friends average 220
pounds (99 kilograms) each and
the golf bags weigh approximately
30 pounds (13.5 kilograms) each.
The calculation would be: 1400 -
(5 x 220) - (5 x 30) = 1400 - 1100
- 150 = 150 pounds. "

In these examples, RAM does include 150 pounds for the driver and Ford does not as seen in the example of obtaining passenger weight (220x5) with no allowance to deduct as in the RAM calculations...

So, IMHO, every "payload sticker" from a different manufacturer will include THEIR version of the maximum and there is no "clearly defined set of rules" that mandates what they put on the sticker.... Or, if there is a "set of rules" it's not being applied equally by every manufacturer.....

Another example of "apples and oranges" depending on the marketing department's needs as much as the engineering department's capacities....

I'd imagine the 150 pound criteria applies "somewhere" just not "everywhere"...

Imagine for a moment, building a 60 passenger school bus. Using a 150 pound passenger criteria for "every seat" would be a "reasonable standard. If there were no standard and Blue Bird Bus Company built a 60 passenger bus with a payload of 3000 pounds (50 pounds per passenger seat) how would you define it suitable for use (based on seat capacity) for high schools ??? (Although it would likely be "ok for kindergarten)

I think, at least for me, it's a "given fact" that there is NO CRITERIA in how manufacturers rate their products in advertising brochures as long as they meet the minimum requirements for the class vehicle..... Beyond that, it's fair game to claim whatever the public will be gullible enough to believe.....

[sourdough]

My thinking is that if you are close enough to payload max that 150lbs. is make or break....you're too close and need to be looking at a different plan.

[jmlocklin]

Thanks for all the comments. I have decided to go ahead and get the camper. We only travel short distances to the two campgrounds we like. This trailer is only 3 ft longer than our present camper. As for maneuverability, I try my best to never backup. I can't even back up a boat trailer. I am envious of those who can, but I never learned how to do it. My plan is to get an F-350 once my 250 is paid for. Our present camper is a bunkhouse model that could sleep 9. Reason for buying it was that we thought our grandkids would love to go camping with us. We now know that will never happen because they are all too involved with their activities, sports, swimming, etc. Wishful thinking on our part. So we are getting a camper for just my wife and I, with the space that another couple could join us if we wanted them to. I'll add that our favorite campground is Desota State Park in Alabama. Lots of pull through sites. Easy access to hiking trails if that is some thing you like to do. We try to spend a few days there every month. The other park we like is Cheaha State park. Maybe we like those for the pull through sites. Did I mention that I hate to back up any trailer? Thanks again for all the comments.

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by jmlocklin

Thanks for all the comments. I have decided to go ahead and get the camper. We only travel short distances to the two campgrounds we like. This trailer is only 3 ft longer than our present camper. As for maneuverability, I try my best to never backup. I can't even back up a boat trailer. I am envious of those who can, but I never learned how to do it. My plan is to get an F-350 once my 250 is paid for. Our present camper is a bunkhouse model that could sleep 9. Reason for buying it was that we thought our grandkids would love to go camping with us. We now know that will never happen because they are all too involved with their activities, sports, swimming, etc. Wishful thinking on our part. So we are getting a camper for just my wife and I, with the space that another couple could join us if we wanted them to. I'll add that our favorite campground is Desota State Park in Alabama. Lots of pull through sites. Easy access to hiking trails if that is some thing you like to do. We try to spend a few days there every month. The other park we like is Cheaha State park. Maybe we like those for the pull through sites. Did I mention that I hate to back up any trailer? Thanks again for all the comments.

Just a few thoughts when reading this. First, your truck doesn't know if you are 50 miles from home or 5,000 miles away. I just don't understand why folks say that. As for not backing up I think it would be in your best interest to learn how to do that. Chances are, some day you will be FORCED to back up and perhaps to make a reversal of direction.

Travel enough and some day you end up on a road where a bridge is out, or a fire is blocking the road, a serious accident where the road may be blocked for months. I've seen this on I95 in Philadelphia years ago when a gas tanker caught fire under a bridge. Personally I think that if you can't back the trailer up, not like a pro but at least with some proficiency then you shouldn't be towing it. JMHO

I wish you all the best. Stay safe.

[Gegrad]

You should be good. Your payload is 2263. At fully loaded, that TT has a hitch weight of around 1365 lbs. That gives you plenty of cushion. Especially since you said you have been camping for awhile and don't carry anything in the bed due to your age and limitations. Not sure why others are thinking you are a newbie and will all of a sudden start carrying 500 lbs around in the bed after you stated you haven't carried anything in the bed for years, and the grandkids don't go with you due to their schedules. Carry on.

Some say you should always be way below your limits- the max limits were designed so that as long as you are below the thresholds you will be within the factory of safety that is built in. You certainly don't need to have anywhere near 1000 lbs of cushion; anywhere below the max payload and you will still be within the engineers' factory of safety. Its only when you go overweight are you encroaching on the factor of safety that is built in.

[jmlocklin]

Okay I lied. I can back up the trailer, if I have to. I've even stayed in some back-in sites at a couple of places. Before I added a special driveway for my camper I would have to make 3-point turns in the front yard to park my present camper by the house. Was it easy? Heck no but given enough time I can do it. As I get older my frustration level maxes out quickly when I try to back up. There seems to be a mental problem between turning the front wheels of the truck and making the trailer go where I want it to. Some of that is compounded by the turning radius of my truck I think. Thanks again!

[wiredgeorge]

Originally Posted by jmlocklin

Okay I lied. I can back up the trailer, if I have to. I've even stayed in some back-in sites at a couple of places. Before I added a special driveway for my camper I would have to make 3-point turns in the front yard to park my present camper by the house. Was it easy? Heck no but given enough time I can do it. As I get older my frustration level maxes out quickly when I try to back up. There seems to be a mental problem between turning the front wheels of the truck and making the trailer go where I want it to. Some of that is compounded by the turning radius of my truck I think. Thanks again!

Check out this gizmo:
https://www.towgo.com/homepage.html

[Beast2017]

Originally Posted by jmlocklin

I am looking to upgrade my camper to an Outback 330RL. My truck is a F-250 Diesel. Before I buy I would like to make sure my truck can pull it safely. I am attaching pictures of the stickers of the truck and camper. I am no good with numbers so asking for a little help and advice. Any thoughts are welcomed.

Did you end up getting the 330rl? How is it on the road pulling that long a trailer? Reason I ask is I have that same trailer but I have an F350 6.7 CCSB - Plenty of payload 3476

[jmlocklin]

Sorry I have not been back on in a couple of days. I will definitely check out the towgo. I also have not picked up the new camper yet, but will probably do it next week. My wife is really looking forward to our first trip in it. Compared to my present camper it is only an arms length longer and has so much more room. For us the bunk beds in our old camper was totally wasted space and no room for more than two people to sit. The new camper will be a welcomed change.

[rowehg]

I almost never post, but I might be closest to your situation. 2017 F250 diesel and a 2017 328RL (GVWR of 10,500 lbs). I weighed, loaded up for camping, with these results:

TV only 7800 lbs (only carry clothes and groceries in the TV with us). The TV door sticker suggests 10,000 GVWR minus 2181 max cargo capacity = 7819, so close agreement with the scales I used.

TV+TT 17,560 lbs (TV 9060, TT axles 8500)

I use an Equalizer hitch, which transfers some pin weight forward to the steer axle and backward to the trailer axle, leaving an effective hitch weight (measured) of 1260 lbs. That is 13% of the (unhitched, loaded for camping with propane tanks, battery, gear and a rear mounted toolbox) 9,760 total trailer weight.

TV drive axle weight is 4780 lbs, well within the Rear GAWR of 6340 lbs. And steer axle loaded weight is 90% of unloaded weight (4280 vs 4680) so no adverse steering effect.

It pulls very stable, with no significant "push" from 18 wheelers or wind, and the standard full-size bed length gives a wheelbase that is pretty solid IMHO.

These numbers are all without 2 passengers weighing around 500 lbs combined (call it 403 for me, 97 for the DW, to make sure I don't have to sleep in the dog's house!). But with the 10,000 GVWR minus 9060 measured weight = 940 lbs remaining available payload, we can stay within the manufacturer specs with ourselves, groceries and clothes. I don't argue with those who advocate for the most safety margin possible, but I'm okay with using the sticker weight limits given the manufacturer's built-in safety margin and my experience with this setup over the past 3 years. And my speed cap is 65 mph no matter what.

I have upgraded the TT tires to give more safety factor, though.

I'm no expert but by analogy I suspect your F250 will suffice if you can achieve similar weights.

[wiredgeorge]

Your premise about built in safety margins may be off the mark by a long shot but you explanation of cabin occupant weights shows you are a genius in wife. A little pandering goes a long way. While honesty is a virtue, so is making your missus smile.