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Old 08-15-2020, 10:58 AM   #21
mikec557
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Clarification

Hi there. I'm the OP, and just wanted to clear up that I have not added any outlets (yet). My problem is the loose or open Neutral wire. Someone else posting in the thread added outlets and/or changed to residential boxes and outlets.

Don't get me wrong, I like side topics coming in. I've learned A-LOT from that in other threads. I just want to clear that up in case someone has a question for that person.

PS I will eventually add an outlet in our dinette bench seat. The factory ran the 120vac to that location, coiled up about 4 ft of wire and taped it off. I have no idea why they didn't just finish the job. When I put it in, it will be the only outlet in our slide-out, where there is the dinette and 2 recliners. But, there are other projects ahead of this.



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Old 08-20-2020, 07:47 AM   #22
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One Other Way to Mount an Outlet

One Other Way to Mount an Outlet when there is not enough wall depth to install a box is as follows. I had a 2000 Bounder Motorhome befor my current Keystone. For a reason I do not remember, I had to replace the outlet over the dining table. It was located in an exterior wall.

There was not enough depth so I took a piece of hardwood and trimmed it to be an inch or so larger than a wall plate. I cut a rectangular hole in it for the outlet. So using this hardwood "spacer" , I effectively made the wall "thicker" and the outlet would now fit.

Thanks for the heads up from everyone on the blade outlets. I have not had one fail but they sure are of questionable quality/safety. Looks like I will start changing those out of my Keystone.
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Old 08-20-2020, 08:00 AM   #23
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One Other Way to Mount an Outlet when there is not enough wall depth to install a box is as follows...

There was not enough depth so I took a piece of hardwood and trimmed it to be an inch or so larger than a wall plate. I cut a rectangular hole in it for the outlet. So using this hardwood "spacer" , I effectively made the wall "thicker" and the outlet would now fit.
Clever solution. I'll keep that in mind for future projects.
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Old 08-20-2020, 12:55 PM   #24
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Thanks for the heads up from everyone on the blade outlets. I have not had one fail but they sure are of questionable quality/safety. Looks like I will start changing those out of my Keystone.
These outlets are standard in the manufactured home (singlewide/doublewide) industry, which has similar wall-depth issues. If installed conscientiously, they're quite solid and safe, even when they have to ride down the road. You may do just as well to simply inspect the ones you have and repunch them if necessary.
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Old 08-20-2020, 01:49 PM   #25
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These outlets are standard in the manufactured home (singlewide/doublewide) industry, which has similar wall-depth issues. If installed conscientiously, they're quite solid and safe, even when they have to ride down the road. You may do just as well to simply inspect the ones you have and repunch them if necessary.
Owners of trailers and manufactured homes can repunch all they want. Fact of the matter is the metal blade has still slightly deformed from the stress of the first punch-down at the factory. It’ll never be the same. For me, replace them and be done with the issue at hand and the issue that will eventually be at hand. I spent 10 years on the line in a rural and suburban fire department kicking in doors on burning houses and structures, pulling people and their pets out of that hell. I’ve seen what electrical fires do, trailers/campers and mobile homes go up fast and furious and the results are deadly. No thank you, my electrical is not going to be the reason I meet my maker before my time. This is the reason why I replaced my new a/c on a new camper due to a poor electrical connection from the Dometic factory. I checked the new ones and they were snug, but not tight. I fixed those before I installed it on the camper.
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Old 08-22-2020, 11:36 AM   #26
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Yup. That looks like an open neutral...

Yup. That looks like an open neutral...

I missed the name of the member who suggested I start at the nearest to panel outlet. That made sense, so I did. Unfortunately, it was the furthest away outlet, yet must still be "first in line."

And what were they thinking?!?
Three pieces of Romex into one of these junkie outlets.

I'm not where I can effect the best repair. I'll either see if I can push the 3rd wire on or just leave the circuit breaker off until we get home.

I know somewhere there has to be a hidden junction to connect the stranded wire in the slide to the solid romex wire. But this? I have no idea why or to where this goofball Y-connection goes.

And per Murphy's Law, this was the 4th outlet of the 4 on this circuit... and of course it's in the hardest place for me to work in...
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Old 08-22-2020, 12:51 PM   #27
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Owners of trailers and manufactured homes can repunch all they want. Fact of the matter is the metal blade has still slightly deformed from the stress of the first punch-down at the factory. It’ll never be the same. For me, replace them and be done with the issue at hand and the issue that will eventually be at hand. I spent 10 years on the line in a rural and suburban fire department kicking in doors on burning houses and structures, pulling people and their pets out of that hell. I’ve seen what electrical fires do, trailers/campers and mobile homes go up fast and furious and the results are deadly. No thank you, my electrical is not going to be the reason I meet my maker before my time. This is the reason why I replaced my new a/c on a new camper due to a poor electrical connection from the Dometic factory. I checked the new ones and they were snug, but not tight. I fixed those before I installed it on the camper.

I was a Texas State certified volunteer fireman with the Mico VFD and can never think of any instance for a rural fire department to ever kick in the door of a mobile home because by the time we would get there, the structure was fully engulfed. Your point about a camper is VERY well taken as I doubt they are even more likely to be a torch within seconds. Change the batteries on your smoke detectors often and don't rely on the pop out emergency windows in the bedroom (I doubt I could fit through mine).
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Old 08-22-2020, 01:12 PM   #28
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I missed the name of the member who suggested I start at the nearest to panel outlet. That made sense, so I did. Unfortunately, it was the furthest away outlet, yet must still be "first in line."
Probably me. You can never tell how the wires are run in these things. If you pop the nearest outlet to the panel and find only one romex in it, then start again at the other end.
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Old 08-22-2020, 01:20 PM   #29
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Mike557, I am following this blog as I generally learn something or can offer something on electrical issues. I may have found your problem.

I am in the process of installing an inverter in my 2018 Cougar and want to remove two circuits from the OEM power center so I can power them from to the inverter output. I want the microwave and all 120V outlets on the GFCI protected circuit to be powered by the inverter. Since I have a 280 W (Max) solar panel installed, I calculated that I could also power the refrig on the 120V circuit even though I normally run it on gas when camping.

In the process of trying to confirm that I had properly identified the circuits for the inverter, I discovered that the refrigerator 120V outlet (behind the frig) is connected to the "Conv/Gen” circuit in my Cougar. It is not connected to the GFCI circuit as I originally assumed it was.

So, check out your refrig outlet with a voltmeter as you may have an issue different than what you are chasing. When you are connected to shore power, check the voltage in the refrig outlet and then trip the Conv/Gen breaker. This will let you know if the frig is connected as mine is.
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Old 08-22-2020, 04:18 PM   #30
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Thanks for the tips. When I bought this used trailer I plugged it in and turned off every breaker. Then I turned on one breaker at a time and tested every outlet to identify which outlets were on each breaker. I also tested to see which were protected by a GFI and if so, which GFI. So, I have that mapped out. Keep in mind that this doesn't tell me how the circuit is strung (1st outlet, 2nd outlet, last outlet, etc).

Where I screwed up (almost went the whole year without that happening, LOL) was this: it was 100 degrees outside, and hotter inside, and I had my hand wrapped around the yellow tester. I only looked for a yellow light... So at that time I didn't notice all the outlets on one circuit had only one yellow, not two yellow, lights. I missed my chance to identify a problem early.

Later when the fridge wouldn't work right I test the outlet for the fridge, then all the outlets on that circuit per my earlier mapping, and I get the wrong result of red & yellow lights (hot and ground crossed). So I start chasing my tail on the question: how could anyone put the black wire where the bare copper should go, and bare copper where the black wire should go.

Then someone gives me a link to a short YouTube that demonstrates a false hot/ground test light result when the real issue is a loose or open Neutral.

Start investing that and I find the 3rd piece of Romex in the farthest outlet is the open neutral. Because it's not attached, it never fed any of the outlets, thus they're all dead. But at least I found the problem. When we get home I'll correct that spot with a household electrical box and standard outlet. Then I'll test all the outlets again and see where we're at.

If it were only two pieces of romex in that box, I could draw the circuit from breaker to 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th outlet. But there's 3 pieces of romex.

Problem is I have 2 wildcards.

1. Out of the underbelly I have a stranded wire cable going into the slide out, where they coiled it up for a future outlet install. It's on this problematic circuit. I found that half way through searching for the problem.

2. There are 3 pieces of romex in what we have to call the first outlet of the problematic circuit. One line brings power into the outlet, one line exits and daisy chains to the remaining 3 outlets...

And one more line goes who knows where? Probably, it feeds the stranded wire cable in the slide out, but if so, where is the junction of solid wire to stranded wire?

I don't know. I just hope that connection was made properly so I can install an outlet in the slide later this fall.

But, one step at a time. First I have to fix that jammed up mess by the passenger side nightstand.
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Old 08-22-2020, 05:50 PM   #31
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I was a Texas State certified volunteer fireman with the Mico VFD and can never think of any instance for a rural fire department to ever kick in the door of a mobile home because by the time we would get there, the structure was fully engulfed.
On the two or three that I vividly recall we arrived on scene to small oven fires and one bathroom bathtub fire where someone was trying to get rid of evidence. Melted mess. Kicking in doors is more of a term rather than an action. My beloved halligan bar did most of the work versus my 14 boot... but there were times on interior doors. Bernalillo County FD/VFD. To me,
VFD was the only way. I was 1 minute away from the station and lived to run calls at 3am. Some of the best 10 years of my younger years. Miss it sometimes.
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Old 08-22-2020, 06:59 PM   #32
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On the two or three that I vividly recall we arrived on scene to small oven fires and one bathroom bathtub fire where someone was trying to get rid of evidence. Melted mess. Kicking in doors is more of a term rather than an action. My beloved halligan bar did most of the work versus my 14 boot... but there were times on interior doors. Bernalillo County FD/VFD. To me,
VFD was the only way. I was 1 minute away from the station and lived to run calls at 3am. Some of the best 10 years of my younger years. Miss it sometimes.

80 percent of our calls were wildland; mostly grass fires but a lot of burning scrub cedar or controlled burns by a rancher our of control. 10 percent were car fires where someone in the big city would steal a car (maybe joy ride?) and dump the car on a remote rural road and set it on fire to cover incriminating evidence and the other 10 percent were meth houses blowing up. Actual structure fires were rare and access to many homes was very difficult due to distance from the station, locked gates, extremely curvy and narrow drives up very steep inclines, etc. Bexar County would call us in if they had wildland fires on the west or north side of their county as they didn't have the equipment or training and we had a fleet of deuce and a halfs equipped for the job. That type of action was extremely tiresome with fires worked for many hours.
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Old 08-23-2020, 07:32 AM   #33
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At the risk of telling you what you probably know, the first outlet in a GFCI circuit is the GFCI breaker. It is designed so that when properly connected, it will protect any "downstream" outlets. Then, if all downstream outlets are wired properly with the hot, neutral and ground connected where they should be in the daisy chain, they will all be GFCI protected.

My house residential wiring created a GFCI circuit in the basement utility room where he daisy chained all garage and outside circuits -- probably 10 or more. He was too cheap to create GFCI circuits on a more logical basis.
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Old 08-23-2020, 12:58 PM   #34
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At the risk of telling you what you probably know, the first outlet in a GFCI circuit is the GFCI breaker. It is designed so that when properly connected, it will protect any "downstream" outlets. Then, if all downstream outlets are wired properly with the hot, neutral and ground connected where they should be in the daisy chain, they will all be GFCI protected.

My house residential wiring created a GFCI circuit in the basement utility room where he daisy chained all garage and outside circuits -- probably 10 or more. He was too cheap to create GFCI circuits on a more logical basis.

Thanks. I think the odd thing is, there is no GFI on this circuit. Granted, the outlet behind the fridge is not on the exterior of the camper, but it is just inside the plastic grate. I guess technically rain shouldn't splash in there. But it surprised me there was no GFI.

Wow, 10 outlets down stream of the GFI at your house. I would have thought code would limit to a lesser quantity.

I'll post pics when I get it fixed/configured.
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Old 08-23-2020, 01:28 PM   #35
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My GFCI breaker in the Cougar is in the bathroom. It is more than half the length of the trailer away from the power center. I think all of your outlets are daisy chained from that location.

Unless someone intentially removed your GFCI breaker, it will be somewhere.

Note, in a residential installation, one can buy expensibe GFCI circuit breakers that are protect the entire downstrean outlets. I don't think Keystone would spend the money on one of that type of circuit breaker.
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