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Old 02-18-2019, 03:35 PM   #1
jdixon980
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Tire Question

This may be in wrong place, but can someone help me understand something. I have a 2018 Cougar 367FLS fifth wheel. As you can see in pictures below of my Trailer king tires. The weight listed on tires are 3080lbs per tire for a total of 12,320lbs. The GVWR of fifth wheel is 14,000lbs. Am I missing something or do I not understand? Shouldn’t tires have at least or more weight capacity of camper? I never travel with fluids in tanks. We only travel 5-8 hours so far on our trips. Always in campgrounds with full hookups. I keep hearing about these tire blowouts and really tearing up campers. Thinking about replacing tires, just don’t know what to get or load range. Assume wheels are only rated for 80psi.Click image for larger version

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Old 02-18-2019, 03:48 PM   #2
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The tires are rated for 3520 lbs. each in your situation = 14.080 lbs. total. The number you quoted is for a "dually" application (side by side tires, not dual axles).

My personal opinion is that 1) they do not give you any reserve to speak of. The thinking was that you deduct the pin weight and then equip with tires to cover the remaining load; a recipe for disaster to me. 2) With a gvw of 14k I would want tires that would carry 16k if possible (15% margin over gvw). Sailun makes your size with a LRG but requires a rim for 110 psi. They are rated at 4080 lbs.
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Old 02-18-2019, 05:41 PM   #3
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There is nothing wrong with the tires on your trailer. At the recommended inflation pressure, 80 PSI, they will provide you with nearly 18% of load capacity above the 6000# certified GAWR axles. (The trailer's tongue weight is carried by the tow vehicle).

Tire applications for all trailers are required to support the maximum certified GAWR for that trailer. Brand names are a personal choice.

Almost all trailer tires have a service condition that provides the maximum load capacity of that tire for single or dual service. Yours has 124/120 meaning that tire will provide 3520# of load capacity at 80 PSI or 3080# when used in a dual configuration. Dual meaning mounted side by side; like the rear tires on a dually truck.

Those LRE tires have been manufactured in a couple of different LRE load capacities. Always replace with new tires having a 124 load index or higher. For instance, the new GY Endurance or the Maxxis 8008s have a load index rating of 123 and do not qualify for replacements.

In your picture the 124/120 ends with an "L". That's the speed letter meaning the tires have a speed restriction of 75 MPH.
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Old 02-18-2019, 06:48 PM   #4
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OP, CW gives you direction based on "what he reads", not "real life". Not being derogatory but lots of folks have lots of different experiences. Saying, definitively, that you are "OK" with minimal tires (IMO) and send you down the road with Trailer Kings is irresponsible.


Read what I said. Listen to other posters. He is telling you that you are good as long as you deduct the pin weight from the weight your tires need to carry and go with the minimum your tires should carry; I completely disagree.
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Old 02-18-2019, 07:02 PM   #5
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JDixon, did you see this thread on tires?

http://www.keystoneforums.com/forums...d.php?p=326873
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Old 02-18-2019, 07:18 PM   #6
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Both Calvin and Danny offer up some good advice. Always replace tires with an equal or greater load capacity index (load range). This provldes you with adequate load capacity reserve, something that manufacturers do skimp on when tire fitments are done.

On top of that, ensure a quality brand of tire is used as there are disparities among tire manufacturers. Trailer Kings are not highly regarded on most of the enthusiast boards as they have a poor reputation.
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Old 02-18-2019, 08:20 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sourdough View Post
OP, CW gives you direction based on "what he reads", not "real life". Not being derogatory but lots of folks have lots of different experiences. Saying, definitively, that you are "OK" with minimal tires (IMO) and send you down the road with Trailer Kings is irresponsible.


Read what I said. Listen to other posters. He is telling you that you are good as long as you deduct the pin weight from the weight your tires need to carry and go with the minimum your tires should carry; I completely disagree. All trailers are designed for the tires to carry the maximum load of the vehicle certified GAWRs.
[
If you're going to continue to be on the site team on this forum you're going to have to get your facts straight. The tires on the OPs trailer are not a minimum requirement as set by FMVSS. They are over the minimum recommended by RVIA who recommend a minimum of 10% above vehicle certified GAWR.


Brands do not play a part in the standards and regulations. Anything about them is biased, personal opinion and antidotal in nature.

One of the FMVSS says the tires fitted to trailer axles MUST have a load capacity equal to the certified GAWR, PERIOD. Another standard says the vehicle manufacturer's recommended tire inflation pressure for those tires must be appropriate. THAT's a minimum standard and it's found on the vehicle certification label, tire placard and in the vehicle owner's manual.


If you want to nail someone to the wall, nail them both. The vehicle manufacturer is required to sign-off that the vehicle meets all federal safety standards at the time it was certified. We as consumers may at times take it lightly. It's not something we have to be responsible for. However, it's very binding for the vehicle manufacturer. They have to sign on the dotted line.


The vehicle manufacturer has built something to standards that require, at the very minimum, a compliance that they have met their responsibility. Consumers buy the product that has been well documented with maximum limitations. Those limitations are real but binding for them is a myth. GVWR is real, GAWR is real and GCWR is real... LIVE WITH IT!!!




This is a standard as it is written in FMVSS 571.120 paragraph S5.3.1; Tires. The size designation and the recommended cold inflation pressure for those tires such that the sum of the load ratings of the tires on each axle is appropriate for the GAWR.


This is a standard as it is written in FMVSS 571.120 paragraph S10.2; On RV trailers, the sum of the GAWRs of all axles on the vehicle plus the vehicle manufacturer's recommended tongue weight must not be less than the GVWR. If tongue weight is specified as a range, the minimum value must be used.


This is a standard as it is written in FMVSS 571,120 paragraph S10.3; The tires on each motor home and RV trailer at first retail sale must be the same size as the tire size on the labeling.
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Old 02-18-2019, 08:41 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by CWtheMan View Post
All trailers are designed for the tires to carry the maximum load of the vehicle certified GAWRs.


If you're going to continue to be on the site team on this forum you're going to have to get your facts straight. The tires on the OPs trailer are not a minimum requirement as set by FMVSS. They are over the minimum recommended by RVIA who recommend a minimum of 10% above vehicle certified GAWR.


Brands do not play a part in the standards and regulations. Anything about them is biased, personal opinion and antidotal in nature.

One of the FMVSS says the tires fitted to trailer axles MUST have a load capacity equal to the certified GAWR, PERIOD. Another standard says the vehicle manufacturer's recommended tire inflation pressure for those tires must be appropriate. THAT's a minimum standard and it's found on the vehicle certification label, tire placard and in the vehicle owner's manual.


If you want to nail someone to the wall, nail them both. The vehicle manufacturer is required to sign-off that the vehicle meets all federal safety standards at the time it was certified. We as consumers may at times take it lightly. It's not something we have to be responsible for. However, it's very binding for the vehicle manufacturer. They have to sign on the dotted line.


The vehicle manufacturer has built something to standards that require, at the very minimum, a compliance that they have met their responsibility. Consumers buy the product that has been well documented with maximum limitations. Those limitations are real but binding for them is a myth. GVWR is real, GAWR is real and GCWR is real... LIVE WITH IT!!!




This is a standard as it is written in FMVSS 571.120 paragraph S5.3.1; Tires. The size designation and the recommended cold inflation pressure for those tires such that the sum of the load ratings of the tires on each axle is appropriate for the GAWR.


This is a standard as it is written in FMVSS 571.120 paragraph S10.2; On RV trailers, the sum of the GAWRs of all axles on the vehicle plus the vehicle manufacturer's recommended tongue weight must not be less than the GVWR. If tongue weight is specified as a range, the minimum value must be used.


This is a standard as it is written in FMVSS 571,120 paragraph S10.3; The tires on each motor home and RV trailer at first retail sale must be the same size as the tire size on the labeling.

Again, I said "IMO" as you put in bold. "Minimum" is my opinion...not from a book or a document...my opinion. I'm sure you realize that "opinion", "book reading" and "real life" are all different things.

I will continue on the site team until I'm told differently. I understand completely what you try to say, albeit without reference to real life, or how tedious, and, I totally understand that I referenced "opinion"...not fact.

Now, back to our regular programming...
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Old 02-18-2019, 10:06 PM   #9
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So I will toss some diesel fuel on this discussion.
I have a 2005 (before the cert label that CW talks about) Keystone Copper Canyon 293 FWSLS with a GVWR of 12,360# it came from the factory with LT235/85-16E tires rated at 3,042# ea. If you do the math that is 12,168# of total capacity. Currently i run about 2,500# pin and 9,800# on the axles.
If you noticed I am talking LT as in Light Truck tires, the same tires you ran on your truck. While I am at the top end of being able to use them I trust them far more than any ST with the exception of the highest rated.
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Old 02-19-2019, 02:18 AM   #10
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So I will toss some diesel fuel on this discussion.
I have a 2005 (before the cert label that CW talks about) Keystone Copper Canyon 293 FWSLS with a GVWR of 12,360# it came from the factory with LT235/85-16E tires rated at 3,042# ea. If you do the math that is 12,168# of total capacity. Currently i run about 2,500# pin and 9,800# on the axles.
If you noticed I am talking LT as in Light Truck tires, the same tires you ran on your truck. While I am at the top end of being able to use them I trust them far more than any ST with the exception of the highest rated.

My trailer is a 2003 Keystone Everest 363K. Had it since it was new. We have about 200,000 miles on it and it still has the original axles. They are 6000# vehicle certified Dexter axles. The wheels are the original aluminum 8 lug wheels rated at 3042# & 80 PSI. The OEM tires were USA made ST235/80R16D rated at 3000# @ 65 PSI. Since 2005 I've used ST235/80R16 tires with LRE, rated at 3520# at 80 PSI on those wheels which is perfectly safe - ref USTMA - because I do not exceed their maximum load capacity.

Keystone used OEM LT235/85R16E on all axles from 5200# - 6000# in model years 2005 & 2006. Then the went exclusively with the ST tires.


It's the vehicle manufacturers responsibility to select OEM tires they deem appropriate for each and all trailers they build. Once they are displayed on the vehicle certification label they are the "bench mark" tires for that vehicle. The tire industry standards are written to insure the field is protected. Their standard is to insure replacement tires are of the same design as the OE tires - or others recommended by the vehicle manufacturer - that came on the trailer and that they will provide a load capacity equal to or greater than the OE tires.

A tires "designated" size is this; ST225/75R15 or LT245/75R16 or P265/65R18 or 205/65R15C (the "C" is for European Commercial) or ST215/75D14 (D=Bias ply). that's it, nothing more.


Your trailer should have a certification label on it. Mine does but it's barely legible anymore. Trailers started having federal certification labels about the time FMVSS was established as the single government standard for trailer manufacturing guidance. (1976).
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Old 02-19-2019, 07:14 AM   #11
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I'm sure you realize that "opinion", "book reading" and "real life" are all different things.
It's hard to convince some people that many times book smart does not equate with real life smart/experience taught or common sense
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Old 02-19-2019, 07:39 AM   #12
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http://www.keystoneforums.com/forums...356#post327356
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Old 02-19-2019, 01:36 PM   #13
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It's hard to convince some people that many times book smart does not equate with real life smart/experience taught or common sense
I'm quite sure sourdough knows I've been a mechanic all my life. I just hit a nerve with a contradictory statement.

My theme in this forum and others is primarily to be informative. A high percentage of common sense talk is shop talk. Another high percentage is people not knowing when, where and how things got started.

My method sometimes has a "Joe Friday", "just the facts sir" to them. Probably comes from my 40 year association with the USN. It's the way most point papers are written at the organizational level and it just naturally pops in there.

I used to reference the major tire rules document of 2007 - which is still about 95% in force - when talking about tire load capacity reserves. Back then the committee had a hand full of members that were very adamite about including a 15% load capacity reserve load capacity for all RV trailer tire fitments. It was benched and is still benched. Ten years later RVIA has enacted a recommendation for their members to ensure all RV trailer tires have a 10% load capacity reserve. I always supported the 15% but am more than happy to see the 10%. The point is; most new RV trailer owners think of their trailer tires as just another every day tire. And that's far from being accurate.
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Old 02-24-2019, 08:12 AM   #14
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Changed Stock Tires

I bought a new 2018 Keystone Cougar 30RLS. It came with the Trailer King tires. I replaced these new tires with Goodyear Endurance. I wanted piece of mind on the road. While the stock tires might be fine for a while...they might not and wanted to start out with the best tires I could fine. Just what I did. Good luck.
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Old 02-24-2019, 11:57 AM   #15
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Remember, that you have about 2,400 lbs vertical load on the TV....therefore, even if you hit the 14,000 you will only have 11,600 on the axles. If you check your axles they are probably rated at only 6,000 each since you will never go above that unless you overload the 5r. Have you taken the rig to a CAT scale yet?
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Old 02-24-2019, 12:23 PM   #16
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I bought a new 2018 Keystone Cougar 30RLS. It came with the Trailer King tires. I replaced these new tires with Goodyear Endurance. I wanted piece of mind on the road. While the stock tires might be fine for a while...they might not and wanted to start out with the best tires I could fine. Just what I did. Good luck.

Just a note for future consideration. The ST225/75R15 manufacturers now have an all steel tire in that size with a LRF. The draw back it'll require new rims for the 95 PSI inflation pressure.
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Old 02-24-2019, 12:47 PM   #17
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CAT SCALE Yes go to a cat scale at any truckstop and place just your trailor tires on platform and then you know what your trl weight is. remember if you load more to the front of trailor less the weight on rear tires but may make your tough weight heavy, when they say trl max weight that is all weight including tounge ,that is on rear of truck not trl tires racn randy
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Old 02-24-2019, 12:58 PM   #18
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CAT SCALE Yes go to a cat scale at any truckstop and place just your trailor tires on platform and then you know what your trl weight is. remember if you load more to the front of trailor less the weight on rear tires but may make your tough weight heavy, when they say trl max weight that is all weight including tounge ,that is on rear of truck not trl tires racn randy
That's NOT the way CAT scales work !!!!! What you're suggesting is similar to suggesting that someone go to their bathroom, put their left leg on the scale and see how much it weighs, figure that the rest of their weight is being carried by their right leg and if it "adds up OK" then they must not be fat ?????

ALL CAT scales have three pads, one for the tow vehicle front axle, one for the tow vehicle rear axle and one for the trailer axles. Drive on the scale "properly positioned" and weigh the rig, then drive off the scale, drop the trailer, drive back onto the scale with the front/rear tow vehicle axles on the proper scale pads, weigh a second time. That process will give you exact weights for the tow vehicle, the trailer pin, the trailer axles and there's no "guessing if the left leg is doing OK"......
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Old 02-24-2019, 01:17 PM   #19
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he is only asking what is the weight on trl tires are, my idea is to find the true weight that is riding on just those tires, remember the tounge weight is on tow unit not on trl correct, you don't need to drop out and split weight, just weigh trl on steer axle plate last one by the speaker at cat scale,. Racn Randy
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Old 02-24-2019, 01:36 PM   #20
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Remember he is buying tires not a tow vehicle as someone else said you lose weight on trl tire when you hook up, if you did not you would have NO tongue weight I would also say weight on trl tires would be around 11.5 k to 12.5 k not the total unit of 14 k..... Imposible, undriveable
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