Puzzling GFCI tripping problem.

[break80]

OK, I have worked with an electrician to do some basic troubleshooting. We have tried different extension cords, different circuits / outlets etc. I have even tried plugging into my buddies generator in his fifth wheel. The problem is when I connect from my camper, convert to an extension cord and connect to my home to charge the battery. It always trips the GFCI, but, if I connect direct to a 30amp source at a campground, or simply an outlet in my garage that is not on GFCI, it does not trip anything

My camper is a 2009 Cougar 32 bhs travel trailer. The converter is housed in the front storage in the door side front hatch. Should I,while ensuring the power and battery is disconnected, try and reconnect each wire and make sure there isn't any loose strands or anything touching each other? I assume this is out of warranty, although I did just buy this brand new from the dealer last April????

[Paddler]

This is just a WAG (wild a$$ guess), GFI's sense a difference in potiential between the ground wire and the neutral wire. When you connect a GFI circuit, through an extension cord, then through the trailer power cord, then through the trailer wiring and circuit panel...you are probably developing enough voltage drop to trip the GFI circuit. Again...just a WAG.

Not to much you can do for the connections between the extension cord and trailer power cord other than making sure the connectors are clean and corrosion free. Areas to check, 1) trailer wiring where it connects to the trailer power cord, look for loose connections on neutral and ground. 2) Locate the trailer power panel, check tightness of hot, neutral and ground wires inside the power panel. BE SURE TRAILER IS NOT CONNECTED TO SHORE POWER!

[break80]

Originally Posted by Paddler

This is just a WAG (wild a$$ guess), GFI's sense a difference in potiential between the ground wire and the neutral wire. When you connect a GFI circuit, through an extension cord, then through the trailer power cord, then through the trailer wiring and circuit panel...you are probably developing enough voltage drop to trip the GFI circuit. Again...just a WAG.

Not to much you can do for the connections between the extension cord and trailer power cord other than making sure the connectors are clean and corrosion free. Areas to check, 1) trailer wiring where it connects to the trailer power cord, look for loose connections on neutral and ground. 2) Locate the trailer power panel, check tightness of hot, neutral and ground wires inside the power panel. BE SURE TRAILER IS NOT CONNECTED TO SHORE POWER!

Thanks, for the reply. I'll take that under consideration, but I know one of my good friends, and actually several people who I camp and hunt with don't have this problem. The electrician that helped me troubleshoot the issue on the phone believes that there is potentially something "bonded" between a neutral and ground. He believes it is fixable and not something inherent due to using an extension cord and having a voltage drop that you can't do anything about. I"ll try and call Keystone direct, but at least the help from my dealer was extremely disappointing ( maybe I just got the wrong person on the phone)

[ktmracer]

Originally Posted by Paddler

This is just a WAG (wild a$$ guess), GFI's sense a difference in potiential between the ground wire and the neutral wire. When you connect a GFI circuit, through an extension cord, then through the trailer power cord, then through the trailer wiring and circuit panel...you are probably developing enough voltage drop to trip the GFI circuit. Again...just a WAG.

Not to much you can do for the connections between the extension cord and trailer power cord other than making sure the connectors are clean and corrosion free. Areas to check, 1) trailer wiring where it connects to the trailer power cord, look for loose connections on neutral and ground. 2) Locate the trailer power panel, check tightness of hot, neutral and ground wires inside the power panel. BE SURE TRAILER IS NOT CONNECTED TO SHORE POWER!

not quite the correct info on a GFI. A GFI detector detects an imbalance in CURRENT between the hot and neutral not a voltage difference. Newer GFI's also will detect a neutral to ground short downstream of the GFI. By NEC code, ground and neutral must only be bonded together at the main entrance panel. Power cord length should not affect the GFI unless the cord is not well insulated and there is leakage current somewhere. The best approach to determining the fault IMHO is a as follows.

1) turn off the main breaker in the trailer and connect to the power source. If the source GFI trips it means there is a leakage path between the power source and the panel in the trailer or a ground/neutral short. If it doesn't trip then:
a) turn off ALL the breakers in the trailer panel and then turn on the main breaker. If it trips, then the fault is in the main panel, likely a loose hot or neutral or a neutral tied to a ground somewhere. If it doesn't trip then
b) turn on the other breakers one at a time till the GFI trips. That indicates the circuit that has a leakage current.

A few common faults are
1) the fridge AC heater element having a leakage path to ground as it begins to fail.
2) A hot water heater element with a leakage path to ground as it begins to fail
3) Not as common, but motors that develop a leakage current, such as the
AC compressor or fan
4) Outside outlets that have moisture in them. This is one of the most common faults.

the reason it probably doesn't trip at a campground etc. is that most campgrounds don't have a GFI on the 30A or 50A circuit, neither do most generators.

I wouldn't be a bit suprised if your problem is either a ground/neutral bond (short) somewhere in the main trailer panel.

[chain_dogg]

Mine did the same thing........I tested with a GFI tester, and the GFI was tripping at 3 MA, Instead of 7 to 10 MA to ground. I replace the Plug with a new 20 Amp GFI.....Problem went away.






P.S. Trailer is just over a year old. I use a Pass and seymor Hospital grade Outlet instead of the (made out of Country type) or Home depot Cheapo

[break80]

Originally Posted by chain_dogg

Mine did the same thing........I tested with a GFI tester, and the GFI was tripping at 3 MA, Instead of 7 to 10 MA to ground. I replace the Plug with a new 20 Amp GFI.....Problem went away.
This sounds promising, but you lost me a little here. Did you replace the GFCI outlet in the camper ( I think mine is in the bathroom)?





P.S. Trailer is just over a year old. I use a Pass and seymor Hospital grade Outlet instead of the (made out of Country type) or Home depot Cheapo

Not sure what the picture you show is, or what " a Pass and seymor Hosptial grade outlet is, or where I could find one. If this could solve the problem, I would be very grateful. just need a little electrical guidance.

[Bluewater]

Same here. I just replace the GFI outlet in my Laredo 5th wheel too. Had no power to the outlets on one whole side. ALso replaced it with a 20 amp.
Good luck

[happytrails]

Originally Posted by ktmracer

not quite the correct info on a GFI. A GFI detector detects an imbalance in CURRENT between the hot and neutral not a voltage difference. Newer GFI's also will detect a neutral to ground short downstream of the GFI. By NEC code, ground and neutral must only be bonded together at the main entrance panel. Power cord length should not affect the GFI unless the cord is not well insulated and there is leakage current somewhere. The best approach to determining the fault IMHO is a as follows.

1) turn off the main breaker in the trailer and connect to the power source. If the source GFI trips it means there is a leakage path between the power source and the panel in the trailer or a ground/neutral short. If it doesn't trip then:
a) turn off ALL the breakers in the trailer panel and then turn on the main breaker. If it trips, then the fault is in the main panel, likely a loose hot or neutral or a neutral tied to a ground somewhere. If it doesn't trip then
b) turn on the other breakers one at a time till the GFI trips. That indicates the circuit that has a leakage current.

A few common faults are
1) the fridge AC heater element having a leakage path to ground as it begins to fail.
2) A hot water heater element with a leakage path to ground as it begins to fail
3) Not as common, but motors that develop a leakage current, such as the
AC compressor or fan
4) Outside outlets that have moisture in them. This is one of the most common faults.

the reason it probably doesn't trip at a campground etc. is that most campgrounds don't have a GFI on the 30A or 50A circuit, neither do most generators.

I wouldn't be a bit suprised if your problem is either a ground/neutral bond (short) somewhere in the main trailer panel.

I agree with this.

I do want to add that I have seen a couple other posts about replacing the GFI and that would be my first thing I would try, however, don't just replace the GFI with a 20Amp GFI unless the one you have now is a 20Amp GFI. You should be able to tell what you should put in by looking at the breaker that feeds the GFI and/or it will be stamped on the GFI. If it is a 15Amp breaker then put in a 15Amp GFI. DO NOT REPLACE the 15Amp breaker with a 20Amp breaker or you may just start a fire. You most likely won't start a fire by putting in a 20Amp GFI in place of a 15Amp, but it is just bad practice and can be confusing to the next guy.

Someone mentioned hospital grade GFI or non-Home Depot. I agree but I think you can find a good durable GFI at Home Depot. If you look at the outlets section in HD or Lowes you will notice that some outlets are $0.50 or so and some are $4. By looking at them you won't notice much difference. Pick them up and really get a look and feel of them. This is one case where you really do get what you pay for. See if they actually have someone in the electrical department who knows about electrical stuff. Hard to find, but sometimes they actually do have knowledgable people in the right departments. My electronics professor in college retired and went to work for Lowes, they put him in plumbing. go figure!

[ktmracer]

Originally Posted by happytrails

I agree with this.

I do want to add that I have seen a couple other posts about replacing the GFI and that would be my first thing I would try, however, don't just replace the GFI with a 20Amp GFI unless the one you have now is a 20Amp GFI. You should be able to tell what you should put in by looking at the breaker that feeds the GFI and/or it will be stamped on the GFI. If it is a 15Amp breaker then put in a 15Amp GFI. DO NOT REPLACE the 15Amp breaker with a 20Amp breaker or you may just start a fire. You most likely won't start a fire by putting in a 20Amp GFI in place of a 15Amp, but it is just bad practice and can be confusing to the next guy.

Someone mentioned hospital grade GFI or non-Home Depot. I agree but I think you can find a good durable GFI at Home Depot. If you look at the outlets section in HD or Lowes you will notice that some outlets are $0.50 or so and some are $4. By looking at them you won't notice much difference. Pick them up and really get a look and feel of them. This is one case where you really do get what you pay for. See if they actually have someone in the electrical department who knows about electrical stuff. Hard to find, but sometimes they actually do have knowledgable people in the right departments. My electronics professor in college retired and went to work for Lowes, they put him in pluming. go figure!

to clarfy, a GFI outlet is NOT a circuit breaker, it is ONLY a GFI. A GFI/breaker combo in the breaker box is both. in the panel do NOT substitute a 20A GFI/Breaker for a 15A unless the wire is at least #12 to avoid code and possible fire. It is also good practice to not substitute a 20A GFI outlet for a 15A GFI outlet since the 20A GFI outlet will accept a 20A 120V plug as well as a 15A 120V plug. (Yes, they are different.) And even if the breaker is 20A it is very common and code compliant to use 15A duplex outlets and 15A GFI outlets on a 20A circuit.

[happytrails]

This is what KTMRACER was referring to with different plug types.
Difference between 20Amp and 15Amp outlets (15 on left 20 on right):