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Old 05-19-2019, 01:53 PM   #1
sonofcy
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Big truck and still overloaded

Perhaps my situation will help educate newbies. I purchased a Ford F450. It comes standard with 8ft bed, 4.3 rear end, diesel dually. It also has brakes that are bigger. Since we are full timers with no other home we pretty much loaded it up with every feature except chrome because chrome don't pull or carry jack. The trailer is a Keystone Montana of which there are over 100,000 sold. It is 41'9" long. I had a wheel by wheel weighing done (highly recommended) shortly after buying and packing it. Here are the key numbers.
That monster of a truck is OVERLOADED by 325 lbs, a GVW of 14,325 vs GVWR of 14,000. The overload is on the rear axle due to pin weight but the actual axles are both under spec since they are rated at a combined 15,900 (6,000 F GAWR + 9,900 R GAWR)
The 5er is OVERLOADED by 1,570 lbs. The front axle (7k axles) is 7,250 (250 over) and the rear is 6,900 (100 under). The pin weight is 4,125 lbs. (22.6%) Total trailer weight is therefore 18,275 vs a GVWR of 16,705 giving us 1,570 lbs over!
Our initial trip was from northern Ontario to Vancouver Island which is 2,410 miles with the last few days going over the mountains. The one good thing was that the temperature was low so the tires stayed cool (as measured by the 10 after market TPMS) and we stayed below 60 mph. We have since lightened our load of the trailer but until it is weighed again wheel by wheel we are not positive it is ok although a total weight indicates we probably are. When I was shopping for the truck I saw that the 450 was only about $2,000 more or $33.33 per month so why not get the 4.3 rear end, brakes that are 1.1" bigger, wide trak front end so I out turn even some F150's.
Bottom line is that even with the biggest medium duty pickup (1 Ton) diesel dually you can still be overloaded with the most popular 5ers out there. The next time you see a DRV going down the highway (GVWR >21,000 lbs) and it is not being pulled by a Volvo tractor or equivalent, give it a very wide birth because it is at least 1 ton overweight.
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Old 05-19-2019, 02:04 PM   #2
Controller23
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Isn’t the towing cap on the f450 closer to 20,000 lbs? I’m pretty sure that’s not overweight..
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Old 05-19-2019, 02:37 PM   #3
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Isn’t the towing cap on the f450 closer to 20,000 lbs? I’m pretty sure that’s not overweight..
Not by the sticker, Ford chose to keep it a Class 3 truck, not a class 4. It is the old 250 to 350 type comparison. I reality a F350 with the same options will have a greater Payload than the F450. The F450 has larger stronger parts, it SHOULD be listed as a Class 4 truck, but with that come cost and restrictions for the owner! Higher (commercial) insurance rates, licensing fees, restrictions where you can park and drive. It is a real catch 22.
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Old 05-19-2019, 03:08 PM   #4
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The towing cap is most certainly in the 20's (27,500) but has absolutely nothing to do with the issue. Before we even look at towing cap we have to make sure the truck by itself plus pin wt is ok which it isn't and the trailer by itself is ok which it isn't (yes, pin wt is used TWICE!). Once one number fails (in this case 2) there is no need to check further, the rig is overloaded. We are well under by more than 10,000 lbs of max tow and more than 12k under GCWR. What some/many people fail to understand is that if ANY weight spec fails the entire rig fails. In my case I have a truck weighing more than the GVWR sticker and a trailer that weighs more than it's GVWR sticker. Max tow wt is an almost useless metric. It is the last thing to check after all the other numbers have passed.
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Old 05-19-2019, 03:10 PM   #5
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In BC especially I am glad it's a stealth class 4 and yes a 350 would work with that pin wt but I wanted the class 4 for long term durability.
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Old 05-19-2019, 03:17 PM   #6
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Thanks for sharing. I think it might be eye opening to some that the F450 could be overloaded with a Montana - it's a BIG truck...right?

Your explanation of the weight limits vs towing capacity was also on point.
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Old 05-19-2019, 03:37 PM   #7
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I am interested to see what you are willing to leave at the curb to achieve within sticker weights, generator? Washer/Dryer? We live 6 month / year in one, I know how easy it is to overpack. Every year we start fresh and take less and less. Remember the 80/20 rule, you will use 20% of the stuff 80% of the time. Lighten up and enjoy.
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Old 05-19-2019, 04:17 PM   #8
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Thanks for sharing. I think it might be eye opening to some that the F450 could be overloaded with a Montana - it's a BIG truck...right?

Your explanation of the weight limits vs towing capacity was also on point.
And some folks say it is Ok with a 250. I guarantee you the pin wt is waaaaay over the true payload number.
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Old 05-19-2019, 04:25 PM   #9
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I am interested to see what you are willing to leave at the curb to achieve within sticker weights, generator? Washer/Dryer? We live 6 month / year in one, I know how easy it is to overpack. Every year we start fresh and take less and less. Remember the 80/20 rule, you will use 20% of the stuff 80% of the time. Lighten up and enjoy.
I didn't like the propane generator because the energy to space ratio of propane is super low. I got two Honda EU2000i's that go in the back of the truck. However there is no way in hades we will give up our fantastic Italian Splendide W/D. We have them side by side. Since they are on the same side as the real residential fridge we have a side to side weight issue as well. I moved the batteries over to help but still more to do.
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Old 05-19-2019, 05:35 PM   #10
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I didn't like the propane generator because the energy to space ratio of propane is super low. I got two Honda EU2000i's that go in the back of the truck. However there is no way in hades we will give up our fantastic Italian Splendide W/D. We have them side by side. Since they are on the same side as the real residential fridge we have a side to side weight issue as well. I moved the batteries over to help but still more to do.
This reply indicates that you intend to occasionally live off the grid. Have you dealt with the holding tank(s) weight issues? Do you have solar on the roof?

I am not trying to be critical, I feel your pain, you have some major weight issues to deal with. You have made a major investment. The F450 is more forgiving, the RV suspension is not. There is thread after thread of suspension failures. I wish you luck in working this out.
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Old 05-19-2019, 06:27 PM   #11
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This reply indicates that you intend to occasionally live off the grid. Have you dealt with the holding tank(s) weight issues? Do you have solar on the roof?

I am not trying to be critical, I feel your pain, you have some major weight issues to deal with. You have made a major investment. The F450 is more forgiving, the RV suspension is not. There is thread after thread of suspension failures. I wish you luck in working this out.
We do plan on boondocking eventually. One axle is a bit more than 3% over (7,250 vs 7,000). We did a weighing a few months back of the entire rig, not wheel by wheel and we have lost a lot of weight. Foolishly I do not know where I wrote down the new weight but I will do it again when we leave here for pre-winter servicing. Remember the truck is over by 325 lbs and the one axle by 250 lbs. We removed almost all the weight from the frontmost storage bin under the front couch and a lot from thge basement. I am optimistic but if that isn't enough then we will do more. Thanks for reminding me to account for tanks, fuel and future solar next time.
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Old 05-20-2019, 09:18 AM   #12
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In BC especially I am glad it's a stealth class 4 and yes a 350 would work with that pin wt but I wanted the class 4 for long term durability.

The better turning radius is worth it too. I wish I went with the 450 vice the 350.
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Old 05-20-2019, 09:33 AM   #13
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The turning radius alone was enough to put a smile on my face. Spending half my life in Florida where every destination (it seems) calls for a u-turn, and the other half of my life with me taking the wrong turn and going the wrong way!
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Old 05-21-2019, 08:47 AM   #14
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Here is another view of weights.
Truck ready to hook up was 10,200 lbs but fuel was 50% so corrected GVW would be 10,360. This leaves a payload of (14,000-10,360) 3,640 lbs. Door sticker says I have payload of 4,613 lbs. That means our ready to tow stuff, people, fluids, hitch, dog, tools etc is (4,613-3,640) 973 lbs. It also means that the pin wt % needs to be 22% of trailer GVWR, BUT since trailer is overloaded we are actually at 20%. That % is acceptable but 25% is even better. Now here is the tricky part many don't get. Assume truck is NOT overloaded but is instead 100% loaded which for my truck and my loadout leaves 3,640 lbs of pin weight. Using the max tow wt of 27,500 lbs the pin wt could only be 13.24% which is in my opinion waaaaay too low. As a double check, GCWR is 41,800 and subtracting max tow of 27,500 leaves a truck of 14,300 (don't know how that 300 got there) so everything checks. I think what happens is that good folks think the weights are an OR situation when in fact they are an AND. That means you have to pass ALL the weight checks and we didn't even get into tire and rim specs. I didn't for my situation because I am still under the rear GAWR and the factory rims and tires are spec's for that axle. I just noticed that if I bring trailer down to it's GVWR then 25% pin wt is 51lbs heavier than now! The reason is I am now at 22.6% so to get to 25% requires either moving more wt from behind the axles to in front of them. That will not happen, the vast majority of the movable wt is in front of the axles. That might mean I am sitting nose high when hooked up and I need to reduce that. The problem is I need more clearance between the RV and the truck since I already damaged the bed cover when turning through a small ditch. That is a tradeoff I will have trouble deciding on although a bed cover is a lot less expensive than a blown axle on the RV probably leading to a write off. Imagine what would have happened if I had bought a 250 which only comes in a single rear wheel. The 250 is limited to about 2,000 lbs pin wt after deducting people, hitch, tools etc. That is HALF my actual pin wt!
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Old 05-26-2019, 08:36 AM   #15
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What you are relating here SHOULD be given to EVERY RV buyer and pickup buyer looking to tow. If we gave it to the truck and RV salesmen it would go straight into the trash.

Maybe a simpler solution for you would be GET A SMALLER FIFTH WHEEL! Just kidding. Good luck in you quest.
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Old 05-26-2019, 08:43 AM   #16
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What you are relating here SHOULD be given to EVERY RV buyer and pickup buyer looking to tow. If we gave it to the truck and RV salesmen it would go straight into the trash.

Maybe a simpler solution for you would be GET A SMALLER FIFTH WHEEL! Just kidding. Good luck in you quest.
Nothing so drastic, we just need to lose a bit of weight which we may have already done but I won't know for sure until we move to winter quarters about a half hour away and we drive right past the weigh scales. Keep in mind that the TV is only 325 lbs over and the RV is 250 over on 1 axle with the other 100 under. The entire RV is 1,570 over due to weight in front storage which we have since cleaned up. The purpose of the post was to show that even with a big truck parts of the rig can be over weight while well under on others. The big issue is the use of 'towing capacity'. That is a mostly marketing number not the key determinant. GCWR is far more important.
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Old 05-26-2019, 01:36 PM   #17
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THIS information should be mandatory before people purchase truck or trailer. Sadly few check their capacities and think the salesmen know what they are talking about.
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Old 05-28-2019, 07:19 AM   #18
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I have been telling people for years that the door sticker DOES NOT reflect what you can actually carry. The load capacity on the door is before all fluids, people, hitches, tools, dogs, cats, and anything else you can put in the truck. I have a 2017 F350 DRW Lariat and with everything in the truck I weigh 9500 lbs. The trucks 14000lbs GVWR - 9500lbs actual truck weight means I can put only 4500 more pounds in bed. My 2018 Montana 3120RL has an actual pin weight of 3000lbs. Not the 2200 - 2400lbs most people keep using. This is with only 2000lbs in the trailer. With a SRW diesel I would be over weight on load capacity, but not pulling capacity. These are all scaled weights BTW. Trailer is just at 14000lbs weighed and could carry another 2000lbs to max out its 16000lbs max weight rating. We sold our 2016 F350 SRW and bought the 2017 because I was at max or over for load capacity. Not towing capacity.

I daily commute in the DRW and find very little issues with parking other than the length. Driving it is easy as pie. Stability with the trailer is unreal and to tell the truth if I have a say about it; I won't go back to a SRW. I live in British Columbia, Canada. We have a lot of mountains here and some very steep grades. I thought my 2016 was a very, very good truck, but this 2017 is clearly better in almost every aspect. When Ford said this is the first new Superduty in 18 years, they were not kidding.
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Old 05-28-2019, 09:46 AM   #19
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I have been telling people for years that the door sticker DOES NOT reflect what you can actually carry. The load capacity on the door is before all fluids, people, hitches, tools, dogs, cats, and anything else you can put in the truck. I have a 2017 F350 DRW Lariat and with everything in the truck I weigh 9500 lbs. The trucks 14000lbs GVWR - 9500lbs actual truck weight means I can put only 4500 more pounds in bed. My 2018 Montana 3120RL has an actual pin weight of 3000lbs. Not the 2200 - 2400lbs most people keep using. This is with only 2000lbs in the trailer. With a SRW diesel I would be over weight on load capacity, but not pulling capacity. These are all scaled weights BTW. Trailer is just at 14000lbs weighed and could carry another 2000lbs to max out its 16000lbs max weight rating. We sold our 2016 F350 SRW and bought the 2017 because I was at max or over for load capacity. Not towing capacity.

I daily commute in the DRW and find very little issues with parking other than the length. Driving it is easy as pie. Stability with the trailer is unreal and to tell the truth if I have a say about it; I won't go back to a SRW. I live in British Columbia, Canada. We have a lot of mountains here and some very steep grades. I thought my 2016 was a very, very good truck, but this 2017 is clearly better in almost every aspect. When Ford said this is the first new Superduty in 18 years, they were not kidding.
I also live in BC and got the F450 for a little more than $2,000 more to get the 4.30 rear end, the bigger brakes and class 4 parts but class 3 license fees. It too is my daily driver and it is legal width. It actually out turns all but a few stripped down F150's in the Ford lineup due to the wide track front end. The only issue is BC's love affair with small vehicle parking so sometimes I have to park further away but I am not in a hurry in any case.
What some folks don't appear to know is that you have to make sure ALL the weights are in spec, not just towing capacity. It's an AND not an OR.
The quick shopping checks are the trucks GCWR-trucks GVWR is the trailer GVWR. The door pillar sticker load capacity - 1,000 lbs times (4 to 5) is the trailer GVWR.
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