Upgrade to Lithium Batteries?

[Kzneft]

I haven't priced lead-acid batteries recently, but I imagine between $150-$200, and they don't have nearly the specs for drainage a a LIFB does, so at $500 for a 100AH LIF I figured that's the way to go. Other benefits is no acid always around the batteries and corroding the metal around them on the RV, I can put the LIFB inside my cargo area, they don't need venting, hold a charge longer, can't see any downsidel with them in the long run.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by Kzneft

I haven't priced lead-acid batteries recently, but I imagine between $150-$200, and they don't have nearly the specs for drainage a a LIFB does, so at $500 for a 100AH LIF I figured that's the way to go. Other benefits is no acid always around the batteries and corroding the metal around them on the RV, I can put the LIFB inside my cargo area, they don't need venting, hold a charge longer, can't see any downsidel with them in the long run.

Lead Acid GC2 batteries are sold at Costco and Sam's Club every day for less than $100. Current price at Sam's is $89.

The downside to lithium, IMO, is cost. Functionally, they are an improvement over LA systems. That said, the "buy in" for most people is around $1000 to buy the battery and a upgraded converter. If you can afford that and want it, it's an improvement over LA battery systems for most situations. If you have to decide whether to stay home this weekend or buy a battery and next weekend buy a converter, then maybe a lithium battery system not a "best choice", especially if most (or all) of your RV use is in campgrounds with electrical hookups...

My "stubbornness" is rooted not in whether lithium is an improvement, but rather the way these threads come across, suggesting "If you don't convert to lithium batteries, your RV electrical system is inferior or second rate"... That's simply not true LA batteries have been the mainstay for generations, continues to provide reliable electrical power for RV's and will likely remain the most used source of electrical power for years to come.

In short, Lithium batteries are an alternative, not a required upgrade. The way most people use their RV, the expense of conversion to lithium is simply not economically justifiable. For those who want it, can afford it and/or need it, it's an improved source of battery power, but don't sell LA batteries short, they are and will continue to be the most popular, the most affordable and the "industry standard" for the foreseeable future.

[Kzneft]

I guess some it comes down to "can I do this myself". As for me I can do the electrical, conversion, and all else to switch over. For others that could be a big expense to make the switch. Next spring when I have all installed I will report back as to my conclusion.

[Stircrazy]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

In response to the part in red, the most significant weakness is cost, not charging temperature.

actyualy its not believe it or not. people re still thinking of the prices that were out there 3 years ago when they started or over priced battleborn batteries.

to use a comparason, you can go buy a 3 to 400 buck rolls surrett GC battery and have a nive 250AH batter that if treated right will last quite a while, but I see people go buy the old 208AH costco or sams club batteri for 89.99. so why would you pass over a 300.00 buck LFP that has great reviews to buy the 1000 buck battleborn?

think in terms that makes an even comparason, not every one is going to do a set up like mine, when I am on the road by myself I can easly go almost two weeks on my tanks, with the wife that will drop down to 1 week to 10 days. I want to make sure power isnt the limiting factor and when we want to use 120V apliances I have the reserve to do it with out worry, but for most people they just want to get a deicent usable amount of power.

so lets look at the guy who goes out and buy two OK GC2s. so lets say with taxes he spends 110.00 each (seams to be an average price) thats 220 for 208AH but because its flooded cells, if you want them to last you only realy can use 104AH and now you have to check water levels 2 to 6 times a year depending how you use it if you dont every time they drop to much you hurt the battery a little (seen it lots on this board laitly) then you have to get them up to full charge evey so often or it hurts the battery a little and so on. where you can go buy a 100AH LFP for about 300 to 350 right now. drop it in and your done. same usable AH. so ya its a bit more money but compare the flooded batteries 800 cycles (if you treat it perfectly ) to the LFPs 2500 to 4000 cycles (depending on the brand) and this is where it realy gets cheeper, but most likely you will be replacing the flooded batteries in 6 years the wway average people look after them so thats when you will notice it.

for my set up I am making my own by buying the raw cells and bms and putting them togeather, so realy it is costing me much less then buying 4 new decient batteries for the 5th wheel (which I have now) when its time to change them.

there is also the converter to look at, you can use your old one in a gell mode but I would recomend changing that, it is a 200 buck bill here in canada so I would imagin you could get a new charge end for about 100 bucks down there and just put it in??

Steve

[TimC]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

My "stubbornness" is rooted not in whether lithium is an improvement, but rather the way these threads come across, suggesting "If you don't convert to lithium batteries, your RV electrical system is inferior or second rate"... That's simply not true LA batteries have been the mainstay for generations, continues to provide reliable electrical power for RV's and will likely remain the most used source of electrical power for years to come.

I’m not sure about “second rate” (not really sure how we define second rate) but it is absolutely true that a lead acid system is going to be inferior to a lithium setup. As far as performance goes, it’s not even close. There are many advantages of lithium over lead acid that make lithium better in almost every way. In my opinion that doesn’t mean there aren’t still applications where it makes sense to stick with lead acid. I just believe in most instances you’re better off going lithium, even when looking at cost in the long run. If looking at lithium it’s just important to understand the couple minor drawbacks. But, what I see from some of the “lithium isn’t worth it” crowd (obviously not all) is that “it’s too expensive and not worth it unless you do massive amounts of boondocking.” That’s simply not true anymore unless you’re looking only at the very short term.

Originally Posted by JRTJH

In short, Lithium batteries are an alternative, not a required upgrade. The way most people use their RV, the expense of conversion to lithium is simply not economically justifiable. For those who want it, can afford it and/or need it, it's an improved source of battery power, but don't sell LA batteries short, they are and will continue to be the most popular, the most affordable and the "industry standard" for the foreseeable future.

Agree they are definitely not a required upgrade. But, as stated above, the cost isn’t really a valid argument in most cases. If you want to look at economics of the batteries, lithium is going to win unless you’re looking at RVing only a few years. Even if you’re a light user of the batteries, you can drop $200-$300 every 5 years or so on LA, or drop $500-$600 once and the lithium would then probably outlast the rig. So in the long run it’s cheaper and you get all the advantages of lithium.

Best argument I see for sticking with LA is simplicity. No need to worry about changing the converter, and I think that’s a big deal for some people. I definitely don’t see anything wrong with this approach, especially if you don’t need the advantages of lithium. But, don’t think you’re saving yourself money, because you’re likely not. If lithium costs continue to come down, I wouldn’t be surprised to see manufacturers start putting in converters with a lithium profile standard. If that happens this argument starts to weaken as well.

One last thing to mention that I think I, and other pro lithium people, have glossed over. When looking into the cycle rating of lithium, what I’ve seen from many manufacturers is a rating to 80% capacity. So, while you might get 500 or so cycles from a LA until it’s basically unusable, my lithium setup should still be at 80% capacity after 4,000 cycles or so. As long as I take care of these, they’d last me a very long time.

[Kzneft]

Good responses !!
Maybe in the future when Tesla batteries need to be replaced, you could get them cheap, and even though they are sub-par for the Tesla, might be perfect for a RV? Just a thought. They are flat, you could mount under the RV. Just thinking out loud. They have to be disposed somehow.

[snoobler]

Originally Posted by Kzneft

Good responses !!
Maybe in the future when Tesla batteries need to be replaced, you could get them cheap, and even though they are sub-par for the Tesla, might be perfect for a RV? Just a thought. They are flat, you could mount under the RV. Just thinking out loud. They have to be disposed somehow.

This is a really bad idea. Tesla batteries are made from Lithium NCA chemistry with the highest power density and lowest safety and low cycle life. Better to put them in the recycling stream and get DIY Lithium Iron Phosphate.

It can be done, but there's essentially no upside and lots of downside.

[LHdream]

Originally Posted by xrated

I know, got a lot on my plate right now. My wife and I are getting things together for her upcoming heart surgery. I'll be somewhat out of the loop for a few weeks.

Good luck and strength to you! Everything will be fine, just have faith

[snoobler]

Originally Posted by Stircrazy

for my set up I am making my own by buying the raw cells and bms and putting them togeather, so realy it is costing me much less then buying 4 new decient batteries for the 5th wheel (which I have now) when its time to change them.

What you're not factoring in:

1. Cost associated with additional tools/testing equip needed to do it right.
2. Risk associated with ordering "Grade A" cells from China for 1/3 to 1/2 the cost of TRUE Grade A legit cells from authorized distributors. EVERY Chinese supplier says they're Grade A. 99% of them are lying.
3. Risk associated with having one or more cells arrive damaged after waiting for WEEKS.
4. Labor associated with proper testing, top balancing assembly and deployment.

Any ONE of those can drive the cost of DIY LFP up significantly, especially if you value your time or are left with no other option but to replace with FLA/AGM/GEL because you can't get your battery built in a reasonable timeframe.

Earlier this year I bought 9 EVE 280Ah cells (1 spare - just in case). They took 7 weeks to arrive (in Jan). Paired with an 8S Overkillsolar BMS.

I already have the ability to charge/discharge 50 of these cells at once at 20A both ways, so that was a non-issue. NOT A SINGLE CELL MET DATA SHEET SPECIFICATION FOR CAPACITY, AND I BOUGHT FROM A REPUTABLE SUPPLIER. MOST don't have my testing capabilities and just take what they get hoping for the best.

I also let them sit fully charged for 5 months. The first 8 barely lost any charge at all... <0.2%, but the 9th one lost 1.2%. All of them met spec (<1%/month), but it's a good example of the variability you get from these "commodity" cells out of China. Had that 9th cells been part of the 8S battery, that's more than enough imbalance to trigger OVP.

So YES... DIY LFP can be crazy cheap. The 8S cells and BMS cost a total of $1200. That's the equivalent of 5.6 Battleborn batteries for barely 1/5th the price. With 80% available capacity from LFP, it's the equivalent of 900Ah of lead-acid (50% usable).

However, one doesn't have to look far at all to find tales of woe with delayed shipments, damaged cells, scratched off QR Codes and outright USED cells. So much wasted time and money.

Good luck on your build.

[Kzneft]

Regarding supply chains. Still waiting for my SOK battery. They tell me its waiting to be unloaded from the California docks. Maybe I should have bought Battle Born? Not sure if they are US built or not?

[TimC]

Originally Posted by Kzneft

Regarding supply chains. Still waiting for my SOK battery. They tell me its waiting to be unloaded from the California docks. Maybe I should have bought Battle Born? Not sure if they are US built or not?

Just curious, how long have you been waiting?

[snoobler]

Originally Posted by Kzneft

Regarding supply chains. Still waiting for my SOK battery. They tell me its waiting to be unloaded from the California docks. Maybe I should have bought Battle Born? Not sure if they are US built or not?

SOK routinely has supply issues. Common for them to be out of stock for weeks/months even before the supply crunch.

Battleborn uses Chinese made cylindrical cells it assembles into its cases here in the U.S.

[mikec557]

Originally Posted by snoobler

What you're not factoring in:

1. Cost associated with additional tools/testing equip needed to do it right.
2. Risk associated with ordering "Grade A" cells from China for 1/3 to 1/2 the cost of TRUE Grade A legit cells from authorized distributors. EVERY Chinese supplier says they're Grade A. 99% of them are lying.
3. Risk associated with having one or more cells arrive damaged after waiting for WEEKS.
4. Labor associated with proper testing, top balancing assembly and deployment.

Any ONE of those can drive the cost of DIY LFP up significantly, especially if you value your time or are left with no other option but to replace with FLA/AGM/GEL because you can't get your battery built in a reasonable timeframe.

Earlier this year I bought 9 EVE 280Ah cells (1 spare - just in case). They took 7 weeks to arrive (in Jan). Paired with an 8S Overkillsolar BMS.

I already have the ability to charge/discharge 50 of these cells at once at 20A both ways, so that was a non-issue. NOT A SINGLE CELL MET DATA SHEET SPECIFICATION FOR CAPACITY, AND I BOUGHT FROM A REPUTABLE SUPPLIER. MOST don't have my testing capabilities and just take what they get hoping for the best.

I also let them sit fully charged for 5 months. The first 8 barely lost any charge at all... <0.2%, but the 9th one lost 1.2%. All of them met spec (<1%/month), but it's a good example of the variability you get from these "commodity" cells out of China. Had that 9th cells been part of the 8S battery, that's more than enough imbalance to trigger OVP.

So YES... DIY LFP can be crazy cheap. The 8S cells and BMS cost a total of $1200. That's the equivalent of 5.6 Battleborn batteries for barely 1/5th the price. With 80% available capacity from LFP, it's the equivalent of 900Ah of lead-acid (50% usable).

However, one doesn't have to look far at all to find tales of woe with delayed shipments, damaged cells, scratched off QR Codes and outright USED cells. So much wasted time and money.

Good luck on your build.

So if you know all this, why did you do it?

I assume that since you own all the expensive gear you have the knowledge to know "99% of Chinese batteries" are [fraudulent junk] that won't meet the spec sheet and will cause OVP. I don't get it. Why did you choose to do it?

[snoobler]

Originally Posted by mikec557

So if you know all this, why did you do it?

I assume that since you own all the expensive gear you have the knowledge to know "99% of Chinese batteries" are [fraudulent junk] that won't meet the spec sheet and will cause OVP. I don't get it. Why did you choose to do it?

My test capabilities do not correlate in any way to that knowledge beyond my own experience. There are other resources. The DIY Solar Forum has literally hundreds of examples of folks testing the capacity of their cells and demonstrating a failure to meet rated capacity. Nearly all cells received do not come with the appropriate test sheets to demonstrate compliance with Grade A - without those test results, they are by definition not Grade A. They didn't meet SOME criteria at the manufacturer, and they have been released on the the gray market in China and can be purchased at significantly lower cost.

Many dozens of posts indicating shipping damage or horribly swollen cells with NO evidence of external damage to the box, damaged terminals, scratched off QR Codes, etc. These folks have waited months, are out a bunch of money and don't have their battery.

Why aren't people jumping up and down screaming "FRAUD!"?

Because there are "reputable" sellers that you can mostly count on to provide very high VALUE cells, i.e., they meet all but one data sheet requirement... they might fall 2-5% below the rated capacity... so I get 95-98% rated capacity for... 1/3 to 1/2 the price?

Please and thank you.

Most just giggle quietly to themselves feeling like the got a great deal. But those are the ones that have the sense to validate the supplier. Too many order from so and so on Alibaba and get screwed. Even if they eventually get their money back, they're out 8-12+ weeks and still don't have their battery.

Why did I do it? Because I'm the weirdo with 50 chargers! I did it for fun and as a learning experience. I have an ABSURD amount of batteries within 20' of me at this moment... about 65kWh.

[Kzneft]

Originally Posted by TimC

Just curious, how long have you been waiting?

I ordered November 2, so about a month now.

[Stircrazy]

Originally Posted by snoobler

What you're not factoring in:

1. Cost associated with additional tools/testing equip needed to do it right.
2. Risk associated with ordering "Grade A" cells from China for 1/3 to 1/2 the cost of TRUE Grade A legit cells from authorized distributors. EVERY Chinese supplier says they're Grade A. 99% of them are lying.
3. Risk associated with having one or more cells arrive damaged after waiting for WEEKS.
4. Labor associated with proper testing, top balancing assembly and deployment.

Good luck on your build.

so you going to have to expand on some of these like tools and test equipment, if you are along this mind of DIY its a good chance you already have what you need for test equipment, well maybe not a charger but that is an expence if your going to put them into the rv wether it is DIY or going out and buying a battleborn so it doesnt realy factor in.

the places I am looking at are the big names distrubitors in china that deal with the big manufactures like eve. they do have guarentees and such and ya if somthing gets dammaged in shipping thats what you have shipping insurance and while it is a inconveniance that it will take longer to get them replaced. also this is also why you use your visa to buy them so you can dispute the charges if they turned out to be bait and switch companies. thoes ones usaly won't accept visa for that very reason.


and counting labout for a DIY, not a valid argument, when you diy you already know your going to have to do the work and thats the trade off for saving money. when you vaccume your floor in the house or change the brakes on your car do you pay yourself?

but I will conced that before some one does go the DIY route make sure you look into it first and understand what you are getting into. its not rocket science by any means but there are some steps you may or maynot need to do depending on the parts you buy. some people top ballance all the cells before they do the build, some people make sure they buy a BMS with active top balancing and let that take care of it. if you dont want to do a individual cell capacity test the later is probably just fine as loog as the distriubtor is good and sends you properly matched batteries so read the reviews on them also. not just one or two but most of them take a night and read.

Steve

[snoobler]

Originally Posted by Stircrazy

so you going to have to expand on some of these like tools and test equipment, if you are along this mind of DIY its a good chance you already have what you need for test equipment, well maybe not a charger but that is an expence if your going to put them into the rv wether it is DIY or going out and buying a battleborn so it doesnt realy factor in.

Equipment for top balancing and capacity testing. There are cheaper options besides BB.

the places I am looking at are the big names distrubitors in china that deal with the big manufactures like eve. they do have guarentees and such and ya if somthing gets dammaged in shipping thats what you have shipping insurance and while it is a inconveniance that it will take longer to get them replaced. also this is also why you use your visa to buy them so you can dispute the charges if they turned out to be bait and switch companies. thoes ones usaly won't accept visa for that very reason.

That's well and good. Imagine you ordered your cells. It's been 2 months. They have no tracking for you, and the FEDEX tracking number they gave you hasn't been triggered yet because it's not through customs. There's a big black hole where there's no visibility.

Then they show up at your doorstep after three months... No evidence of damage, but when you open the box, one of the cells is swollen significantly - all the others are good. Guess what? You're three months away from a replacement cell.

Do yourself a favor and head over to DIY Solar Forum. Tons of folks buliding batteries over there, and there are a handful of trusted distributors, some with U.S. stock.

and counting labout for a DIY, not a valid argument, when you diy you already know your going to have to do the work and thats the trade off for saving money. when you vaccume your floor in the house or change the brakes on your car do you pay yourself?

When you're talking 2-3 months waiting for cells and 2-3 weeks to balance and test cells and many hours of touch time, it's a factor. If you have nothing else to do with your time, then I absolutely agree with you.

but I will conced that before some one does go the DIY route make sure you look into it first and understand what you are getting into. its not rocket science by any means but there are some steps you may or maynot need to do depending on the parts you buy. some people top ballance all the cells before they do the build, some people make sure they buy a BMS with active top balancing and let that take care of it. if you dont want to do a individual cell capacity test the later is probably just fine as loog as the distriubtor is good and sends you properly matched batteries so read the reviews on them also. not just one or two but most of them take a night and read.

Steve

The thing is, the only way you can be certain that you're getting tested and matched cells is to get the documentation. You will pay a premium. 99% of what's being marketed as "Grade A" cells are most certainly not Grade A. In most cases, they miss slightly on one or more datasheet parameters and get kicked to the commodity cell market - which is where you get 280Ah EVE cells for ~$100.

My "grade A" cells from a reputable distributor missed capacity by about 3%, but met all other parameters and destroyed the self-discharge specs. lost about 0.2% capacity after sitting for 5 months.

MOST cells NEED top balancing or it's a big headache.
There are very few BMS capable of ACTIVE top balancing. Many do passive top balancing, but those could take weeks to top balance a pack.

Seriously. Head over to the DIY Solar Forum. Great resource for this sort of thing.

[Stircrazy]

Originally Posted by snoobler

Seriously. Head over to the DIY Solar Forum. Great resource for this sort of thing.

I have been on there for about 5 years now, I know about the issues people have had but there are also very good dealers in china. Personaly I would never buy from the united states, nothing against them but they are buying from the same source I have bought from, getting a tiny bit of a discount then doing a mark up for there work. all fair, but by the time you figure out shipping, markups, duities, echange rate and such it is up to 50% more for me to buy a product from the US. you keep going on about the 2 to 3 months, if you are ordering direct and choose the slow boat shipping method, obviously you are ok with that, a couple supliers that are good, have now added air mail for a little more money but not crazy more, so you have a 1 to 2 week option now. and there are actualy a fair choice for active top balancing BMS out there now. I had 5 lined up to chose from, but yes it is a difficult choice when it comes to finding the perfect BMS for your set up. what I realy want they don't make yet, so I have a friend looking into seeing if what I want can be made. well it can but weather it will be able to be made with out increasing cost to much is the question.

Steve

[TimC]

Originally Posted by Kzneft

I ordered November 2, so about a month now.

I’m curious where you ordered from, and if you got some sort of price break by ordering direct from a supplier overseas.

I ordered mine last week from “Current Connected” through Amazon. And, to my surprise they were at my door today when I returned from a 15 min trip down the road to the local farmers market. I paid about $1,050 each for two of them and got free shipping. I’m thinking I probably paid a lot more than you ordering from a supplier who has them stocked in the US. If that’s true I’ll probably go the same route as you when I buy more of them since I’ve already got two. I can afford to wait longer for my next order if it saves me some money.

[snoobler]

Originally Posted by Stircrazy

I have been on there for about 5 years now, I know about the issues people have had but there are also very good dealers in china. Personaly I would never buy from the united states, nothing against them but they are buying from the same source I have bought from, getting a tiny bit of a discount then doing a mark up for there work. all fair, but by the time you figure out shipping, markups, duities, echange rate and such it is up to 50% more for me to buy a product from the US. you keep going on about the 2 to 3 months, if you are ordering direct and choose the slow boat shipping method, obviously you are ok with that, a couple supliers that are good, have now added air mail for a little more money but not crazy more, so you have a 1 to 2 week option now. and there are actualy a fair choice for active top balancing BMS out there now. I had 5 lined up to chose from, but yes it is a difficult choice when it comes to finding the perfect BMS for your set up. what I realy want they don't make yet, so I have a friend looking into seeing if what I want can be made. well it can but weather it will be able to be made with out increasing cost to much is the question.

Steve

Curious how you've been there for 5 years. It's only been a thing since 9/2019 - a hair over two years.

Sounds like you don't need any advice. Good luck with your build.