Axles

[Bolo4u]

Greetings all,

Ive searched an have not seen anything related to my question.

This is not a how much will my vehicle tow question. Vehicles: 5r, 2016 Cougar 333MKS, purchased new, TV 2015 Ram 2500 CC diesel 4x4.

So today I was dinking around the 5r and was looing at the vehicle info sticker and read the following: GVWR 12350, GAWR (each) 5200. The shipping weight is 10470, with the capacity to haul an additional 1880 pounds, making the GVWR.

Now I'm no math genius, but based on the combined GAWR of the two axles, (10400), it seems the shipping weight already exceeds the axle rating, and the GVWR FAR exceeds the rating. (Disclaimer, I have NOT looked at any tags which may be attached to the axels) Its my understanding the axel ratings should never be exceeded (could be a potential enforcement issue).

So my question... am I missing something? Why would Keystone manufacture a 5th wheel which is rated to haul a claimed 12350 pounds but only put axles with a combined weight rating of 10400??

Thoughts??

[chuckster57]

Because you have a fifth wheel, some of the trailer weight is carried in the bed of the truck. Figure 10-15% of trailer GVWR is on the king pin. Hitched up that weight is on your truck not the trailer axles.

Simple answer but it's "family guy" time...gotta go.

[rhagfo]

Actually a 5er is 15 to25% pin, average is 20%, that would put your pin at 2,470# at GVWR, leaving 9,880# on the axles.

your TV, if looking to stay within ALL numbers will be close on the GVWR, if you have a 10,000# GVWR.

[chuckster57]

Originally Posted by rhagfo

Actually a 5er is 15 to25% pin, average is 20%, that would put your pin at 2,470# at GVWR, leaving 9,880# on the axles.



your TV, if looking to stay within ALL numbers will be close on the GVWR, if you have a 10,000# GVWR.

Thank you for the correction on %'s. My mind wasn't fully engaged at the time.

[Javi]

And since nearly all of the available storage is forward of the axles our (mine) pin weight is more like 2800 - 3000.... freshwater (76 gal) behind the axles, galley (37 gal) over the axles and the grey (37 gal) and black (37 gal) in front of the axles..... Just a word of caution....

[Bolo4u]

Thanks for the replies... my brain wasn't fully functioning either. I forgot that part of the weight is transferred to the TV. Yes my TV has a 10000 gvwr, and we don't load the 5r to capacity. We travel fairly light.


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[CWtheMan]

Using Keystone specs for your trailer this is how it works.

Take the Shipping weight (10315#) and add the cargo weight (2065#), that’s the trailers’ GVWR. From the GVWR (12380#) subtract the published hitch weight (1980#). That’s (10400#), divided by 2 = 5200#. That’s how they set GAWR. According to the specs the tires are 16” LRE. I wouldn’t worry about them for a few years.

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by CWtheMan

Using Keystone specs for your trailer this is how it works.

Take the Shipping weight (10315#) and add the cargo weight (2065#), that’s the trailers’ GVWR. From the GVWR (12380#) subtract the published hitch weight (1980#). That’s (10400#), divided by 2 = 5200#. That’s how they set GAWR. According to the specs the tires are 16” LRE. I wouldn’t worry about them for a few years.

Your math is off just a bit.
first you need to figure the % of hitch weight, dry hitch/dry weight = pin %
1,950/10,470 = 19%

Now take that times the GVWR .19*12,350=2,346#.
The axles carry about 10,004#.

Now take into account Javi's post that the basement is forward of the axles, but only about 1/3 of what goes in the basement goes on the pin. so figure using that thought 1,950+625 = 2,575, so ball park 2,346 to 2,575 would be a good guess.

[Javi]

Originally Posted by rhagfo

Your math is off just a bit.
first you need to figure the % of hitch weight, dry hitch/dry weight = pin %
1,950/10,470 = 19%

Now take that times the GVWR .19*12,350=2,346#.
The axles carry about 10,004#.

Now take into account Javi's post that the basement is forward of the axles, but only about 1/3 of what goes in the basement goes on the pin. so figure using that thought 1,950+625 = 2,575, so ball park 2,346 to 2,575 would be a good guess.

My pin weight (Cat Scale) loaded to travel with all tanks empty but everything else including the kitchen sink... is 2820.... total trailer is 11,840..

[CWtheMan]

Originally Posted by CWtheMan

Using Keystone specs for your trailer this is how it works.

Take the Shipping weight (10315#) and add the cargo weight (2065#), that’s the trailers’ GVWR. From the GVWR (12380#) subtract the published hitch weight (1980#). That’s (10400#), divided by 2 = 5200#. That’s how they set GAWR. According to the specs the tires are 16” LRE. I wouldn’t worry about them for a few years.

You have misunderstood my post. It's about the relationship of GVWR, GAWRs, and the trailer manufacturers' hitch weight. They are all set by the trailer build according to FMVSS standards.

The hitch weight is not a fixed value and its management is 100% in the hands of the trailer owner once it is sold.

GAWR axle numbers do not have to agree with the axle manufacturer's load capacity. They are set by the trailer builder and are not supposed to be exceeded no matter what the real axle load happens to be.

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by CWtheMan

You have misunderstood my post. It's about the relationship of GVWR, GAWRs, and the trailer manufacturers' hitch weight. They are all set by the trailer build according to FMVSS standards.

The hitch weight is not a fixed value and its management is 100% in the hands of the trailer owner once it is sold.

GAWR axle numbers do not have to agree with the axle manufacturer's load capacity. They are set by the trailer builder and are not supposed to be exceeded no matter what the real axle load happens to be.

Well not 100%!
Good luck on getting the pin down to zero, by loading everything you have behind the axles.
Yes, you can make it vary, but loaded normally, the Pin will increase based as Javi pointed out. Most normal people use the basement forward of the axles to carry stuff thus increasing both the axle load and the pin.
You would need to take the two anvils that Javi has in the front of his basement and hang them off of a cargo rack on the back of the fiver to make a huge difference.

[CWtheMan]

Originally Posted by rhagfo

Well not 100%!
Good luck on getting the pin down to zero, by loading everything you have behind the axles.
Yes, you can make it vary, but loaded normally, the Pin will increase based as Javi pointed out. Most normal people use the basement forward of the axles to carry stuff thus increasing both the axle load and the pin.
You would need to take the two anvils that Javi has in the front of his basement and hang them off of a cargo rack on the back of the fiver to make a huge difference.

The trailer manufacturer's published hitch weight is attainable. NHTSA would not allow it if the value would not work. All cargo is controlled by the owner. If they cannot make it work there is another answer.

NHTSA quote: " The FMVSS have requirements for the manufacturer to use proper tires and rims for the gross axle weight rating (GAWR) and the gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR). The manufacturer may determine the GVWR by adding cargo capacity (if any) to the curb weight of the vehicle as manufactured. The wise consumer, before purchase, will determine if the vehicle has sufficient cargo capacity to carry the weight of water, additional equipment (such as televisions, and microwave ovens), and luggage. The manufacturer’s certification label must show the GVWR. The GVWR must not be exceeded by overloading the vehicle. There is little the government can do to assist a consumer who has purchased a vehicle that has insufficient cargo capacity for its intended use."

[Bolo4u]

With this info, is the shipping weight calculated including the as-built options (tv, micro, heater/s, spare, etc., but not factoring in any dealer installed items) or do they roll the finished shell off the line, onto a scale, get a weight, then start putting in said items?? It seems if they add micros, fridge, tv, etc. after getting a weight, how would the consumer know how much they can safely add without exceeding safe limits?


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[chuckster57]

Originally Posted by Bolo4u

With this info, is the shipping weight calculated including the as-built options (tv, micro, heater/s, spare, etc., but not factoring in any dealer installed items) or do they roll the finished shell off the line, onto a scale, get a weight, then start putting in said items?? It seems if they add micros, fridge, tv, etc. after getting a weight, how would the consumer know how much they can safely add without exceeding safe limits?


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It's my understanding that shipping weight is what a finished unit weighs as it rolls off the assembly line. I've seen decals on some brands that have a date and signature of the person who weighed it and the actual weight of that unit.

[sourdough]

By every understanding I've ever had, and my conversations with Keystone, your RV is weighted with everything in it as it is when you get it. They don't build a shell, give it a weight and then let you guess what it weighs after additions. Keep in mind that that "dry" weight leaves out a lot of necessary items; propane, liquids, etc.

[CWtheMan]

Originally Posted by chuckster57

It's my understanding that shipping weight is what a finished unit weighs as it rolls off the assembly line. I've seen decals on some brands that have a date and signature of the person who weighed it and the actual weight of that unit.

You are correct. Since 2007 that includes a full load of propane.

Also since 2007 the selling dealer MUST insure the cargo labeling is corrected if they have added more than 100# of options. FMVSS 571.110 for RV trailers under 10K has all the instructions the dealer must perform. For RV trailers over 10K refer to FMVSS 571.120.

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-20...sec571-110.xml

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-20...sec571-120.xml

Keystone and their participating dealers are notorious for having to recall incorrect labels. It would behoove all prospective buyers to add a check of all of the trailer's mandatory labels prior to signing the final papers.