Double Tow

[BruceEA]

Since I live in and around states that allow you to double tow with a 5er, I would would like to tow my UTV on a trailer behind my 2020 Cougar 24RDS.

I found where Keystone put a sticker indicating the maximum hitch weight for the receiver that came with the trailer but can't find what the maximum towing capacity is. My UTV and trailer weigh 2050# + about 150# of gear.

Does anyone know what the weight limit is???

[jasin1]

Originally Posted by BruceEA

Since I live in and around states that allow you to double tow with a 5er, I would would like to tow my UTV on a trailer behind my 2020 Cougar 24RDS.

I found where Keystone put a sticker indicating the maximum hitch weight for the receiver that came with the trailer but can't find what the maximum towing capacity is. My UTV and trailer weigh 2050# + about 150# of gear.

Does anyone know what the weight limit is???

I believe it will be the maximum tow on your truck.. the weight of the hitch will be added to the actual weight of the trailer now the two cannot exceed your trailer gvwr or your max combined weight rating of your truck.. and your hitch you use on the truck must be sized for the additional weight .. my reciever on my cougar is rated for 300 lbs..for a bike rack or cargo rack, not sure if I would trust for dragging a trailer but I’m sure others on the site know... there are other posts on the site that address some of this if you do a search

[RoadToad]

[QUOTE=jasin1;435018] ".. and your hitch you use on the truck must be sized for the additional weight .. "

It is my understanding that there is no added weight to the truck hitch; only added drag. The concern is 1) Combined GVWR of total rig and 2) most importantly; trailer load limits.

The 5er is a teeter-totter in this regard, as are all trailers.
When weight is added behind the axle of a trailer it REDUCES the weight at the tongue end.
Example: If you add 600 lbs to rear of trailer and the distance from the axle to the front of trailer is double the distance to the rear of trailer(the leverage ARM is 2::1), it will REDUCE the truck hitch load by 1/3 (200 lbs.)
AND the load on the trailer axles will be the 600 lb tongue load PLUS the 200 "leveraged" lbs.

Bottom line; truck hitch MINUS 200, Trailer axle PLUS 800.

In the extreme, huge loads on the rear of a trailer will lift the truck off of the ground (YouTube it)
That is why outriggers are needed on rear of trailer when loading front-loaders, ditchers, etc.

[notanlines]

One would think it would be like this, "If you add 600 lbs to rear of trailer and the distance from the axle to the front of trailer is double the distance to the rear of trailer(the leverage ARM is 2::1), it will REDUCE the truck hitch load by 1/3 (200 lbs.) but only if you're dealing with a single axle trailer. Two and three axle trailers become horses of another color.

[RoadToad]

Originally Posted by notanlines

One would think it would be like this, "If you add 600 lbs to rear of trailer and the distance from the axle to the front of trailer is double the distance to the rear of trailer(the leverage ARM is 2::1), it will REDUCE the truck hitch load by 1/3 (200 lbs.) but only if you're dealing with a single axle trailer. Two and three axle trailers become horses of another color.

Only in as much as the fulcrum point of center moves slightly fore and aft as a function of the horizontal plane.

In other words, it is still a teeter-totter; one that the "Plank" can be moved slightly end-to-end.

Google Physics and principals of leverage fulcrums

[RoadToad]

" ..Google Physics and principals of leverage fulcrums[/QUOTE]

Specifically; the fulcrum point will always be at or behind the front axle and at or ahead of the rear axle; regardless of the number of axles.

Pick the pivot point you wish to illustrate and calculate the lever advantage for that point.

[DDuncan51]

Originally Posted by notanlines

One would think it would be like this, "If you add 600 lbs to rear of trailer and the distance from the axle to the front of trailer is double the distance to the rear of trailer(the leverage ARM is 2::1), it will REDUCE the truck hitch load by 1/3 (200 lbs.) but only if you're dealing with a single axle trailer. Two and three axle trailers become horses of another color.

You mean "...double the hitch weight...." right?

[JRTJH]

[QUOTE=RoadToad;436105]

Originally Posted by jasin1

".. and your hitch you use on the truck must be sized for the additional weight .. "

It is my understanding that there is no added weight to the truck hitch; only added drag. The concern is 1) Combined GVWR of total rig and 2) most importantly; trailer load limits.

The 5er is a teeter-totter in this regard, as are all trailers.
When weight is added behind the axle of a trailer it REDUCES the weight at the tongue end.
Example: If you add 600 lbs to rear of trailer and the distance from the axle to the front of trailer is double the distance to the rear of trailer(the leverage ARM is 2::1), it will REDUCE the truck hitch load by 1/3 (200 lbs.)
AND the load on the trailer axles will be the 600 lb tongue load PLUS the 200 "leveraged" lbs.

Bottom line; truck hitch MINUS 200, Trailer axle PLUS 800.

In the extreme, huge loads on the rear of a trailer will lift the truck off of the ground (YouTube it)
That is why outriggers are needed on rear of trailer when loading front-loaders, ditchers, etc.

Single axle trailers "pivot/teeter-totter" on a single point. It's not as easy as that to calculate the increased/decreased load and where it is applied along the trailer chassis, when dealing with tandem or triple axles with equalizers that spread the "pivot point" over a greater distance...

That said, the concern is not only the vertical loading (or unloading) on the fifth wheel hitch, it also affects the total weight being towed and the hitch certification.

Imagine a Curt A-16 (16,000 pound towing weight/4000 pound vertical load)... With a 14,000 pound GVWR trailer and a 2000 pound second trailer, you would be "at maximum hitch load". That's a "far fetched potential with a half ton truck" but a much more realistic situation when double towing with, say a F350 DRW truck, a 13,500 pound GVWR fifth wheel, and a 3500 pound boat. Now you're well within the truck GCWR, nowhere close to max pin weight, good on the hitch vertical load, but 1000 pounds over the hitch maximum load., and if using the hitch in this thread, you'd likely be overloaded on that receiver tongue weight and certainly overloaded on the second trailer gross weight. And DEFINITLEY overloaded on the Curt A-16 maximum towing capacity.

It's easy to do, even with smaller trailers, like a 12,000 GCWR fifth wheel and a 5000 pound boat. I've seen more than a few fifth wheel hitches that were severely overloaded, even though only half the hitch's vertical load was being applied....

It can, and does happen....

[RoadToad]

[QUOTE=JRTJH;436120]

Originally Posted by RoadToad

That said, the concern is not only the vertical loading (or unloading) on the fifth wheel hitch, it also affects the total weight being towed and the hitch certification. "


It's easy to do, even with smaller trailers, like a 12,000 GCWR fifth wheel and a 5000 pound boat. I've seen more than a few fifth wheel hitches that were severely overloaded, even though only half the hitch's vertical load was being applied....

It can, and does happen....

I pointed that issue out in my first post above.

"...The concern is 1) Combined GVWR of total rig and 2) most importantly; trailer load limits.
.."

You have elaborated on that nicely.

[nellie1289]

Are we really still arguing whether an f150 can triple tow? ANSWER IS NO! Lol

[nellie1289]

Originally Posted by BruceEA

Since I live in and around states that allow you to double tow with a 5er, I would would like to tow my UTV on a trailer behind my 2020 Cougar 24RDS.

I found where Keystone put a sticker indicating the maximum hitch weight for the receiver that came with the trailer but can't find what the maximum towing capacity is. My UTV and trailer weigh 2050# + about 150# of gear.

Does anyone know what the weight limit is???

I looked at the 2021 brochure here. I dont think you are supposed to tow anything behind a 1/2 ton fifth wheel. It says 2" "accessory" hitch with 300 lb capacity. I think that means bike rack or small cargo tray only. I have a Montana, much beefier, it says on mine 2" hitch with 300lbs tongue and max trailer 3000 lbs. I wouldnt personally put anything behind a 1/2 ton fiver unless you were just using it to move something around a parking lot or something.

https://keystone-rv-dealer-app.cdn.p...Dec20f_WEB.pdf

[markcee]

Don't know if it's different with your '1/2 ton' 5th wheel but pretty certain the hitch on my '1/2 ton' TT is basically for utility use - bike rack etc.

You are already pulling a really large (over?)load for that F150 with a 10K GVWR 5th wheel, so not sure how advisable your plan is, even if the hitch would support it. I'm sure more experienced members will be responding.

[jasin1]

Originally Posted by markcee

Don't know if it's different with your '1/2 ton' 5th wheel but pretty certain the hitch on my '1/2 ton' TT is basically for utility use - bike rack etc.

You are already pulling a really large (over?)load for that F150 with a 10K GVWR 5th wheel, so not sure how advisable your plan is, even if the hitch would support it. I'm sure more experienced members will be responding.

Wtf ! I didnt catch that earlier ...yeah not a good idea

[notanlines]

Yeah, what Nellie and Mark said. Especially behind your F-150. You really need some truck.

[JRTJH]

The use of the "Accessory hitch" for towing is answered in the FAQ section on the Keystone website: https://www.keystonerv.com/owners-how-to

Can I add a rear hitch to my RV?
Some KRV products are equipped with a receiver for bike rack use only. Any additions or modifications to our units would void the warranty. Please see your Owner’s Manual in regards to modifications.

[nellie1289]

Time for one of my favorite videos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwR6JpCgyn4

[BruceEA]

There are always those who never let the facts get in the way of their pre-conceived ideas.

A properly equipped 2019 and newer F150 has a towing capacity of 13,200 pounds. I never have a gross trailer weight over 9500#.

I do have some truck, it handles my towing needs, I don't have to use DEF and when I'm not towing, I get 21 MPG. Yep, that's some truck.

[nellie1289]

Originally Posted by BruceEA

There are always those who never let the facts get in the way of their pre-conceived ideas.

A properly equipped 2019 and newer F150 has a towing capacity of 13,200 pounds. I never have a gross trailer weight over 9500#.

I do have some truck, it handles my towing needs, I don't have to use DEF and when I'm not towing, I get 21 MPG. Yep, that's some truck.

Irregardless of any soon to come "factors" I'm sure you will get pumelled with by the weight police (that are surely forthcoming).....I'd pay money to see an f150 with 13,200 lbs behind it with the 3.5 engine.

[travelin texans]

Originally Posted by BruceEA

There are always those who never let the facts get in the way of their pre-conceived ideas.

A properly equipped 2019 and newer F150 has a towing capacity of 13,200 pounds. I never have a gross trailer weight over 9500#.

I do have some truck, it handles my towing needs, I don't have to use DEF and when I'm not towing, I get 21 MPG. Yep, that's some truck.

NO WAY would I want to double tow & if in some wild dream or nightmare I did double tow it would be behind much more truck than a F150 which is already most likely very near overloaded to begin with.

[markcee]

Originally Posted by BruceEA

There are always those who never let the facts get in the way of their pre-conceived ideas.

A properly equipped 2019 and newer F150 has a towing capacity of 13,200 pounds. I never have a gross trailer weight over 9500#.

I do have some truck, it handles my towing needs, I don't have to use DEF and when I'm not towing, I get 21 MPG. Yep, that's some truck.

I have been in your situation....sans the additional utility trailer/ATV. I looked at strictly the manufacturer tow rating when I bought our 9500lb GVWR, 33' travel trailer. I bought the trailer and then the 1/2 ton, thinking all was good. Please post a pic of the yellow/white load capacity sticker from the driver's side door pillar of your truck so it can be discussed.

If you load your 5th wheel to 9500 lbs, that will mean your pin weight is likely a minimum of 1900 lbs (20% of GVWR). This 1900 lbs is coming right off the 'cargo carrying capacity' figure listed on the door sticker on the truck.

I had a 2019 max tow F150 XLT that had 1873 pounds of payload per the sticker. That means if I were pulling your 5'ver, I would be overweight, before me, any passengers, any gear, any tools, and the hitch, even hit the truck.

As you may have read, manufacturer brochure towing capacity is about the least valuable rating there is.....particularly for a 1/2 ton truck. It really does not apply to travel trailer or 5th wheel towing as it's calculated from pulling something like a farm hay wagon, or a low work trailer loaded with cinder blocks, not a 12' tall slab/sail like a TT or 5th wheel.

Even if you want to use the manufacturer 13.2K tow rating, it requires a particular configuration: a 4x2, SuperCrew, 157" wheelbase with 20" wheels. However, even if you did have this particular setup, you will still run out of payload unless you have the 'unicorn' (typically special ordered) heavy duty payload package (HDPP) version.

Finally, even if you did have the 13.2K config., plus HDPP, you are still considering hauling an additional 2K and 15'-20' behind the 5th wheel, which is quite a handful that seems more suitable to a 3/4 or 1-ton.

PS....I don't us DEF either. No one here is trying to belittle using a gas engine to tow with. It's about towing within all the ratings (payload, front/rear axles, GVWR and GCVWR), not what engine you are using.