Cutting corners, built to fail.

[Brob]

I have a Keystone Springdale 372 travel trailer. We lived in it full-time for 2 1/2 years as we were preparing our property. Of course there were things that needed repair as we went along, but fortunately nothing major while we were living in it.

The floor was beginning to deflect a bit in a few spots, and we noticed the living room slide-out was beginning to sag a bit in the middle of the 13' span. Fast forward a couple years with occasional use and we began to notice the sag getting much worse and one of the soft spots in the floor really getting softer (though no moisture even when tested with a moisture meter).

Recently I found out that my brother in law is in very poor health and needs to move close to us for assistance, so my wife and I decided to renovate the camper for him to stay here. We discovered two spots in the roof that were leaking and proceeded to disassemble the areas for repair. One was the very back wall in the master bedroom, and the other was the dining room slide-out.

Upon inspection, I was shocked to learn how these things were assembled at the factory, basically designed to fail...not if but when. The EPDM roof was literally tucked UNDER the aluminum siding in back and the "trim" that holds the EPDM membrane to the side had the tiny "gutter" termination BEHIND the vertical trim, basically dumping water behind the trim with every rain. Speaking of the trim with its vinyl insert that one would assume is meant to keep the screws dry, the vinyl insert is NOT watertight, and in fact actually traps moisture inside, rusting the screws away over time.

Over the slide-out (13'4" clear span) is a 4" tall laminate beam with (2) 2x2 pine straps above it; in total 7 1/2" of material. The 2x2 pine is spliced in 3 places over the opening and the "splices" are merely multiple staples shot into the interior face of the 2x material; in other words, not in the least bit structural. To compound the issue, the rooftop A/C unit sits in the middle of this span! It took me a good 12 hours total to brace the roof inside and remove the sagging laminate beam and cut the 1,000 or so staples used to hold everything together (along with elvin magic i suppose). The joints in the 2x2 material were actually corresponding to the joints in the entire ceiling! I have a sawmill, so I custom cut a header that was 2 1/4" thick by 7 3/4" tall and cut the vertical studs down 1/4" to accommodate and tighten the gap a bit between the slide-out and the header.

Where I removed the interior wall and ceiling, I saw the "insulation job" which certainly explained the inconsistent heating and cooling of the place. The back wall literally had less than 75% insulation coverage, with entire sections of the wall completely devoid of insulation. The ceiling areas I opened had about the same.

It's very disappointing to learn how poorly such an expensive item is manufactured, and how it is clearly designed to fail in short order. Built-in obsolescence at its finest... I'm sure that most all manufacturers do it about the same.

I think that I will eventually build my own travel trailer out of metal SIPS panels.

[flybouy]

Ok, so you have a 19 year old trailer (according to your stats) and your upset at the construction and longevity? You lived in it for over 2 years and how long has it sat in Fl and how has it been maintained? Complaining about such an "expensive item" that I would think the value of a 19 year old camper would be exhausted seems unfair to me. I'm not defending the construction but saying that they are engineered to fail just isn't rational. They are engineered to be lightweight and afordable.

[notanlines]

I believe I have the same opinion as Marshal does. You got your money's worth and when you're done it will last for a few more years.

[Brob]

Sure guys, jump on in and bash!!!

NONE of the items I mentioned has ANYTHING to do with maintenance. If you want to know though, I go over the ENTIRE RIG every spring and caulk ALL the seams with Sikaflex 505UV... ZERO water intrusion around the areas I maintain.

Sitting in Florida didn't cause the structure to be scabbed together over a 13' clear span using STAPLES! 19 years didn't make the insulation vanish into thin air. Living in it for two years didn't put the EPDM roof INSIDE the siding!!!

They are constructed poorly......PERIOD!!!! Just look at THIS FORUM at all the build quality issues!!!!!!! I am a general contractor. NOTHING I've built has had any such failures EVER!!! These are common sense things that could easily be remedied WITH NO ADDITIONAL COST TO THE MANUFACTURER!!!

These things are built like crap END OF STORY!

[Brob]

Originally Posted by notanlines

I believe I have the same opinion as Marshal does. You got your money's worth and when you're done it will last for a few more years.

So if the floor in your house starts to sag after 19 years, you have cold/hot spots in your wall because there was never any insulation installed, and your roofing was put behind the exterior walls, you feel you "got your money's worth"?

This thread is about "Poor quality construction and the travel trailers being built to fail" regardless of how long you've owned it, poor construction and quality control are indicative of "Buy American" since at least the 70s. Built-in obsolescence is how it's done; this has sadly become a throw-away society...

[travelin texans]

I agree they're all built as cheaply as possible! I've rebuilt a couple myself in the past & have stood back scratching my head wondering how anyone ever thought that method of construction was a good idea.
The thing you have to remember is the folks slapping them together were most likely flipping burgers at McDs last week & next week they'll be one of the inspectors overseeing the build quality. The turnover in help at these factories in Indiana is unbelievable, I'd bet that some of those employees have worked, more likely showed up, for all the manufacturers at some point, get pissed for having to work & go to the next factory. They speed through getting the daily quota completed out the factory door & go home.
NO! This is not an excuse, but the manufacturers have brought it on themselves by pushing quantity rather than quality at the factory & we keep buying them.
If you ever are in the area take a tour of one factories, any one they're all the same, it will answer a lot of your questions of how & why this stuff happens in a rv.

[CedarCreekWoody]

They have the ability to build them better if people would pay the price, and have a Peterbuilt to tow them.

[chuckster57]

I’ve been an RV tech for 10+ yrs and yeah sometimes it amazes me how these things stay together going down the road. Your observation on how the roof membrane is installed has been the factory standard for as long as I can remember. The rubber has to stop somewhere, and that’s why they make lap sealants.

When I sold my previous trailer after 13 1/2 years of ownership, the roof was intact and no water leaks because I inspected it on a regular basis. It does seem like they are using lighter material and less skilled people, but as long as the American public keeps buying in record numbers, I don’t see any changes.

[Brob]

100% Agree Travelin Texan. It's just frustrating seeing what "Made in the USA" means these days. It used to mean a high quality product built for a lifetime, and companies made money servicing the products they sell. I have a tabletop fan that my grandparents bought in 1949, it has oil ports for the bearings and the switch comes apart to have the contact points cleaned. It comes on every single time I flip the switch...71 years after it left the factory. Show me ANY desktop fan made in the last 30 years that you can say that about.

When I build and fabricate things, I try to do so in a manner as to avoid future issues as much as possible. When we purchased this camper it was when I started a home build for a friend who was several hours away from my home. The original purchase price was about $105 per square foot. The home I built for my friend was just over $55 per square foot. They've raised two kids in the house. My wife and I just went to visit them back in March. They told us that their highest electric bill was $78. They've repainted the interior and replaced the carpet in the bedrooms with LVP flooring. The original geothermal heat pump is still working well. They had to replace the refrigerator 2 years ago, but otherwise everything is still the same as when they moved in. No roof leaks, no sagging openings, no weird electrical issues; all of which I've dealt with on this travel trailer.

I realize it's a trailer that bounces down the road, but a ton of these issues wouldn't be issues with just a little quality control. The way I am repairing this slide-out opening actually uses less material than the factory, therefore less labor. It will never sag again. The EPDM membrane could have just as easily been installed outside the aluminum siding, and the gutter tail could have been installed in a manner so that the seam would be behind it instead of it dumping right behind the trim.

I wish we could collectively step back and reevaluate our priorities and go back to quality craftsmanship over a quick buck. With the technology available today, we could easily build RVs that last as long as an Airstream from the 60s.

[flybouy]

The common theme to me is the "stuff don't last" but I still want to spend as little as possible. Let's be completly honest with ourselves here. Whenever you bought yhis trailer you had a choice, buy the Keystone or spend considerahly more to buy a higher end quality huilt unit. I understand you are upset but expecying a 19 year old Keysttone to be in "like new" condition is like buying a fake Rolex and expecting it to keep time as accurately and last as long as a real one.

[jasin1]

Originally Posted by Brob

100% Agree Travelin Texan. It's just frustrating seeing what "Made in the USA" means these days. It used to mean a high quality product built for a lifetime, and companies made money servicing the products they sell. I have a tabletop fan that my grandparents bought in 1949, it has oil ports for the bearings and the switch comes apart to have the contact points cleaned. It comes on every single time I flip the switch...71 years after it left the factory. Show me ANY desktop fan made in the last 30 years that you can say that about.

When I build and fabricate things, I try to do so in a manner as to avoid future issues as much as possible. When we purchased this camper it was when I started a home build for a friend who was several hours away from my home. The original purchase price was about $105 per square foot. The home I built for my friend was just over $55 per square foot. They've raised two kids in the house. My wife and I just went to visit them back in March. They told us that their highest electric bill was $78. They've repainted the interior and replaced the carpet in the bedrooms with LVP flooring. The original geothermal heat pump is still working well. They had to replace the refrigerator 2 years ago, but otherwise everything is still the same as when they moved in. No roof leaks, no sagging openings, no weird electrical issues; all of which I've dealt with on this travel trailer.

I realize it's a trailer that bounces down the road, but a ton of these issues wouldn't be issues with just a little quality control. The way I am repairing this slide-out opening actually uses less material than the factory, therefore less labor. It will never sag again. The EPDM membrane could have just as easily been installed outside the aluminum siding, and the gutter tail could have been installed in a manner so that the seam would be behind it instead of it dumping right behind the trim.

I wish we could collectively step back and reevaluate our priorities and go back to quality craftsmanship over a quick buck. With the technology available today, we could easily build RVs that last as long as an Airstream from the 60s.

I get your frustration but 19 years is a long time for anything to sit outside..might have been a different outcome if it was in a pole barn...I don’t care what it is...a car, a boat ,a camper..if you leave it outside uncovered for 19 years it will deteriorate.
And Dyson makes a fan that is close to $300. You could also buy a fan from Walmart for $20.. one may last a lot longer
Same with the 60’s airstreams,..a 1967 airstream trade winds twin was almost $7000 with tax in 1967..you could buy a Ford mustang cheaper ..mustangs were $2600 in 1967 and corvettes were a little over $4000 ...cheaper trailers from that era probably lasted about 20 years.

Rv’s and boats require constant annual maintenance..I pay over $500 a year just to shrink wrap my boat during the winter ..I have to build a pole barn or carport for my fifth wheel if I expect it to look good long term.

[Weldon]

My 1981 Craftsman pressure washer gets frequent use. I do yearly maintenance and last year replaced the pump. Its still kicking. My dad bought a new electric pressure washer. It broke on the first use, but had been in the box for a year, so he couldn't return it and i couldn't find the internal part for it. He then bought a new craftsman gas powered pressure washer. It lasted maybe 6 uses before it failed. Even when it worked, it just felt cheap.

I agree stuff was made better back in the day. Without getting political (you don't want me to start down that path), that was also in the glory days of the US. I dare say we are no longer in our glory days. Back then you also had one or two kinds of everything to chose from in a store, so the quality had to be there. You worked hard to afford something that would last and you could pass down to your kids. Now go to any hardware store and look at how many different options there are for a screwdriver. Anywhere from $2 to $50. I'm a middle of the road person. I set my expectations accordingly. If I buy the $50 screwdriver (will never happen), I expect it to last. If I buy the $2 option, I expect to get 1 or 2 good uses out of it.

I think the issue is that a lot of the population wants to pay the $2 and expect the same quality as the $50 option because they are "entitled" to it. Everyone sues for everything. Now if you want anything that is quality, you have to pay an extreme amount to get it. Quality should not be assumed.

This has nothing to do with you, OP. Just sparked my soap box. I'm happy with my now 4 year old camper. I don't expect it to last 19 years. If it does, I'll start buying lottery tickets.

[JRTJH]

Well, Here's a 2002 Springdale Clearwater RV brochure. The "LEAD comment" is this:

SIMPLY, the highest value, lowest price travel trailer and fifth wheel in existence".....

Translated in "the glory days version of doublespeak" I think that means the cheapest trailer you can buy and get home without it falling apart.....

As for "what part folds over the next" (siding overlapping EPDM rather than EPDM overlapping siding)... Unlike a S&B construction, RV's are built on an assembly line and it's strictly a matter of which layer is applied in which sequence. I've no doubt back then (and probably now with wood frame/aluminum siding trailer construction) there's a "necessary evil" that mandates the roof being installed before the siding can be applied. So, there's likely a "very good explanation" to why the EPDM roofing is under the siding....

Here's the brochure:

[notanlines]

Bryan, your "Sure guys, jump on in and bash!!!"made me laugh out loud.
If Flybouy's comments hurt your feelings you wouldn't last one thread on a truck forum or a boat forum.
You've been living for more than 4 years in a 20 year old RV with a wife, a child, 2 dogs, 2 cats and full-timing in an RV designed and built for weekenders.
Your RV was built by workers earning approximately $11.50 per hour in 2000. Today those same workers are earning $15.00 to $17.00 per hour. Not a drop of overtime in recent years.
What do you think autoworkers are earning? How about electricians in San Francisco? Want to try to take your son to see a Pacers game on their wages?
I would challenge you to visit the assembly line during the week at one of the plants. Then tell me about your quality and who's at fault.
Get over yourself and your whining. NOW you've been bashed.

[chuckster57]

I worked at a dealership that sent techs to the factory for training. They sent a group for a week and when they returned it was said:

Assembly plant workers made just above minimum wage, but got a daily “bonus” if they met production quota. Pretty much the entire plant started early in the morning and stayed until the last unit was complete to get paid. Most told the techs visiting that without the bonus, it really wasn’t a “living wage”.

If paying your bills and putting food on the table hinges on your ability to meet a production goal, do you think quality may take a back seat to quantity?

Come spend a month in the shop with me, and you’ll see that your trailer making 19 years was the exception to the rule.

[NH_Bulldog]

I don’t think anyone really buys an RV thinking (hoping?) it would be built like a house do they? How about jacking up that $500,000 McMansion in the neighborhood and see how many miles (feet?) it gets before falling apart.

Considering the beating these trailers get riding down the road, 10 years is a reasonable expectation and 19 years is nothing short of amazing. I think Woody summed it up pretty good when he mentioned the cost and the truck you would need to pull a trailer made the way it “should” be.

[ChuckS]

I expect to get 20 years out of my current fifth wheel. Key is staying proactive and maintaining... im currently on my eighth season with my Keystone Alpine and have not seen anything other than the normal and usual tings that need sealing, tightening, etc...

A couple of hydraulic hoses have been my biggest expense to date... And that cost has now been reduced with my 3 week test of the field repair JIC fitting...

All appliances.. Dometic A/C units and HP, Suburban furnace and water heater, Dometic RM1350 Fridge and OEM WFCO converter work as advertised... Lippery Six point hyd level up and 3 hyd slide outs have worked perfectly

Just wrapped up and 8 day road trip.. Not a single issue with anyting in the un unit..

my repairs over 8 years other than normal yearly routine stuff have been..
.. new wiper seals ( $83 a slide to replace all 3 wiper seals
.. New trim screw covering ( 1 inch wide ) cost for 100 feet .. $20
.. Two new hyd hoses for slide outs.. chaff spot I should have caught and missed on both lines ( cost $190 for 2 28 foot lines ) made at NAPA.. I will never repalce an entire hose again now that I have field tested the JIC screw on fitting
.. set of G rated tires .. cost ($600)
.. replaced OEM plastic 4 way Andersen cant leak valve with new 3 way brass water panel valve .. Cost ($165)
.. set of GC2 Costco batteries back in 2016 (cost $180)

I haven't seen any structural issues or frame issues.. OEM Dexter suspension with original wet bolts.. original OEM Dexter brakes and bearings still in service

The build on the new units .. regardless of WHO makes it is LESS than stellar due to demand and pressure on inexperienced assembly workers and ZERO follow up Quality Control at the factory are now the KEY issues with most Keystone and other manufacturers

[Brob]

Originally Posted by notanlines

Bryan, your [I]
Get over yourself and your whining. NOW you've been bashed.

My "feelings" weren't hurt, and it's obvious you aren't fully capable of reading comprehension. This post isn't complaining that I "only got 19 years out of my travel trailer"... It's about my observations as a builder on how things could be built better WITHOUT ADDITIONAL EXPENSE to the manufacturer. It's about poor quality control and things being built in a manner where they deliberately fail. It's about the failure of unfettered capitalism and how we fill landfills with broken junk.
As far as your other comments, I AM a member of both a boating site AND a truck site. I even own the "dreaded 6.0L powerstroke diesel". My boat is a 36 year old fiberglass center console, very well constructed and in just as good of condition as new, because I maintain my stuff properly! I own a backhoe from 1978, a skid-steer from 1994, and a sawmill from 1990...all working well because I maintain them... I'm also on heavy equipment forums, so quit being a pansy, put on your big-girl pants, and brush up on your language arts skills so you can hopefully follow along... How'd you like that friend?

[Brob]

Originally Posted by flybouy

The common theme to me is the "stuff don't last" but I still want to spend as little as possible. Let's be completly honest with ourselves here. Whenever you bought yhis trailer you had a choice, buy the Keystone or spend considerahly more to buy a higher end quality huilt unit. I understand you are upset but expecying a 19 year old Keysttone to be in "like new" condition is like buying a fake Rolex and expecting it to keep time as accurately and last as long as a real one.

Please read my original comment AND my reply. NOWHERE am I saying that I expect a 19 year old travel trailer to be "like new" NOWHERE!
I am merely observing how the piss-poor quality control and lack of any proper building standards lead to failures that really shouldn't happen. With just a few changes in practice, these units could be far better without additional expense to the manufacturer. Simply putting the roof membrane OVER the siding could save literally thousands of these trailers water damage, expecting lap sealant to keep out water being driven at 70 mph is ludicrous. Having 2 butt-end splices in structural components, joined on one side only with staples, over a 13' clear span, with a rooftop A/C unit right in the center is asking for trouble.

I'm not upset, I'm NOT expecting a 19 year old travel trailer to be "like new"...I'm pointing out obvious design/build flaws that could easily be corrected to give US, the people who spend our hard-earned dollars on this stuff a little better value, like what it used to mean when something had "Made in the USA" stamped on it. Do you earn your money? Would you prefer that the people you give that money to be honest and provide a quality product, or would you rather them knowingly sell you something that is poorly constructed and designed to fail inside of 15 years?

I go over every caulk seam on this rig every spring.
I use an expensive caulk, Sikaflex 505UV, because I am aware of the benefit of using a quality sealant. The failures I'm talking about here are not due to negligence on my part, I do the necessary maintenance. Owner neglect didn't leave 25% of the insulation missing, lack of care or maintenance didn't put a 300 lb A/C unit on top of a 2x2 attached to a spliced 2x2 in the middle of a clear span. Sitting outside in Florida had nothing to do with a gutter tucked INSIDE vertical trim, or a roof membrane tucked inside the siding. That was manufactured in from day one... I've replaced all the cheap faucets, I ripped out the cheap plastic tub when it broke (incidentally it broke where it was supposed to have a support but didn't) and built a shower pan, I have done all the maintenance. I expect a 19 year old structure to have wear and tear, just not failures brought on by poor construction.

[flybouy]

If you can build a far supirior trailer by constructing it "properly" without any additional cost then do it! You would be a fool not to because you would have wealth beyound beleif. After 1 introductory post 4+ years ago when you moved into the trailer (still don't know if you bought it new or used) you return with nothing but complaints?

Good luck to you and I wish you well.