Hi Spec, Oracle G Rated CHINA BOMB

[JSisemoreTX]

Originally Posted by RickV

That's pretty cool that a Rep actually came on here and offered assistance while it is not unknown to happen it doesn't happen that often in the RV Industry.

Agreed Ricky....I will update everyone o. how my experience is with Warranty Dept. Submitted all info and evidence today.

[JSisemoreTX]

Originally Posted by jadatis

Then what is your GVWR and GAWR's, and howmany axles?

And how do you know you where not at your max GVWR? Only weighing makes it certain.
Often weight is yudged to low.

Give that info, I can google the tires, and after me calculating it, and explain why the max reserves I use, you might be unhappyly surprised.

Found Sailun in your sise ST 235/80R16 in G load
LI 129/4080 lbs At 110 psi, but ST I degrade by 6LI steps to get max reserve. Is LI 123/3420 lbs maxload a tire.Will explain why in my end- calculation.

Goodyear and Maxxis only have list that goes to 80 psi so E-load. Look at your tires, are they realy G- load.
Edit: looked back your picture, and it comfirmed the G-load, after max enlargement .

But this could mean that you should have used fi 120 psi to prefent what happened, and this is not allowed anymore, in earlyer days it was

Pretty sure that intentionally going over a MAX cold psi rating is not recommended and also likely voids a warranty as well. We have a 16,500 GVWR rig (2020 Acalanche 396BH). 2 Axles and pull with a F350 Dually. We have a payload capacity of 2616 lbs and also drive with tanks empty as we stay at full hook up sites. We are not full Timers and have weighed in CAT scales.

[JSisemoreTX]

Originally Posted by gearhead

I had trouble finding a "sticks and bricks" retailer around Houston for Sailun. Maybe Fullers in Baytown, maybe. Probably some truck tire places.
I have had good luck ordering Carlisles from WalMart. They had H rated Sailun and Hercules for home delivery only, but I wasn't going to p**s ant those heavy 17.5's to and from.
I gave up and went to my neighborhood shade tree tire shop for Hercules Strong Guard all steel.
Speaking of "shade tree", did you get up with that "at home, on the side" RV tech in Hardin?

I have reached out to your referral on the home rv tech....haven't been able to speak with him yet.

[JSisemoreTX]

Originally Posted by firestation12

How far do you think the tire traveled before you came to a stop? The 6 point leveler came pretty close to grounding out. An uneven road shoulder could have caused even more damage! Yikes!

Yes agreed...we were pretty lucky that Auto Level jack was unharmed.....overall we were luckier than many.

[jadatis]

Originally Posted by JSisemoreTX

Pretty sure that intentionally going over a MAX cold psi rating is not recommended and also likely voids a warranty as well. We have a 16,500 GVWR rig (2020 Acalanche 396BH). 2 Axles and pull with a F350 Dually. We have a payload capacity of 2616 lbs and also drive with tanks empty as we stay at full hook up sites. We are not full Timers and have weighed in CAT scales.

Then if I assume almost empty so 14000 lbs total weight( 2616 payload' is without watertanks filled?), with my extra safe calculation 112 psi needed. Is maximum reserve without bumping.
The tires are calculated in maxspeed for 65mph, wich allows more deflection than if for 99mph calculated.
That is why I substract 6 LI steps, for every 10kmph/6.5mph higher speed 1 LI step, tire- makers use that system too.

Then I substract 10% from total weight on towbar, and add to the rest 11% for reserve. In fact that gives again the total weight for american TT's, but European only 4% on towbar, so spreadsheet can use same calculation.

This gives maximum reserve without bumping things all over the place if everything is 100% acurate given.

And thats the problem, can end up by all the inacuracies and misyudging of weight, being yust enaugh to prefent overheating of one or more tires.

You drove 68mph,and mayby in the past a bit higher speed.
And do you remember the weighed weights, and per axle or better even per wheel weighed?

If I only use the 11% for unequall load and 129 LI , so for 65 mph, my spreadsheet comes to 94 psi.
So in theory your 105 psi would have been enaugh.

Draw your own conclusions, mine is that its possible that your tire overheated once, and then whatever you do afterward, damage builded up untill the tire blew.
The structure of rubber then is damaged, the not iron cords I see on the picture, are still intact, can stand higher temperatures.

So review the weights and used speed, and my conclusion is that upgrade of tires is advisable.
Will be other sise, or you must find a H load tire.
If LT , same 129 LI can do, because calculated for 99mph, so dont have to be degraded by 6 LI steps.

[wiredgeorge]

Originally Posted by JSisemoreTX

Pretty sure that intentionally going over a MAX cold psi rating is not recommended and also likely voids a warranty as well. We have a 16,500 GVWR rig (2020 Acalanche 396BH). 2 Axles and pull with a F350 Dually. We have a payload capacity of 2616 lbs and also drive with tanks empty as we stay at full hook up sites. We are not full Timers and have weighed in CAT scales.

JS, You wouldn't have to explain your TV & camper in a post if you took a minute and clicked on the UserCP link and made a signature that would show in every post. Just a suggestion.

[JSisemoreTX]

Originally Posted by jadatis

Then if I assume almost empty so 14000 lbs total weight( 2616 payload' is without watertanks filled?), with my extra safe calculation 112 psi needed. Is maximum reserve without bumping.
The tires are calculated in maxspeed for 65mph, wich allows more deflection than if for 99mph calculated.
That is why I substract 6 LI steps, for every 10kmph/6.5mph higher speed 1 LI step, tire- makers use that system too.

Then I substract 10% from total weight on towbar, and add to the rest 11% for reserve. In fact that gives again the total weight for american TT's, but European only 4% on towbar, so spreadsheet can use same calculation.

This gives maximum reserve without bumping things all over the place if everything is 100% acurate given.

And thats the problem, can end up by all the inacuracies and misyudging of weight, being yust enaugh to prefent overheating of one or more tires.

You drove 68mph,and mayby in the past a bit higher speed.
And do you remember the weighed weights, and per axle or better even per wheel weighed?

If I only use the 11% for unequall load and 129 LI , so for 65 mph, my spreadsheet comes to 94 psi.
So in theory your 105 psi would have been enaugh.

Draw your own conclusions, mine is that its possible that your tire overheated once, and then whatever you do afterward, damage builded up untill the tire blew.
The structure of rubber then is damaged, the not iron cords I see on the picture, are still intact, can stand higher temperatures.

So review the weights and used speed, and my conclusion is that upgrade of tires is advisable.
Will be other sise, or you must find a H load tire.
If LT , same 129 LI can do, because calculated for 99mph, so dont have to be degraded by 6 LI steps.

These tires are tested and speed rated to 80 mph....not that any responsible 5th wheel owner would do that, it is just a point.

I have not seen anyone yet or heard from anyone else that has ever suggested to go beyond the Cold Max PSI intentionally (which is clearly labeled as a max on the sidewall of 110).

I believe many people also drive these rigs with fresh water tank partially or Totally full AND with other basic items (another point). So are you suggesting if it was closer to my max GVWR that my cold tire inflation should have been 10, 15, or even 20 psi OVER the clearly stated max?

[JSisemoreTX]

Originally Posted by jadatis

Then if I assume almost empty so 14000 lbs total weight( 2616 payload' is without watertanks filled?), with my extra safe calculation 112 psi needed. Is maximum reserve without bumping.
The tires are calculated in maxspeed for 65mph, wich allows more deflection than if for 99mph calculated.
That is why I substract 6 LI steps, for every 10kmph/6.5mph higher speed 1 LI step, tire- makers use that system too.

Then I substract 10% from total weight on towbar, and add to the rest 11% for reserve. In fact that gives again the total weight for american TT's, but European only 4% on towbar, so spreadsheet can use same calculation.

This gives maximum reserve without bumping things all over the place if everything is 100% acurate given.

And thats the problem, can end up by all the inacuracies and misyudging of weight, being yust enaugh to prefent overheating of one or more tires.

You drove 68mph,and mayby in the past a bit higher speed.
And do you remember the weighed weights, and per axle or better even per wheel weighed?

If I only use the 11% for unequall load and 129 LI , so for 65 mph, my spreadsheet comes to 94 psi.
So in theory your 105 psi would have been enaugh.

Draw your own conclusions, mine is that its possible that your tire overheated once, and then whatever you do afterward, damage builded up untill the tire blew.
The structure of rubber then is damaged, the not iron cords I see on the picture, are still intact, can stand higher temperatures.

So review the weights and used speed, and my conclusion is that upgrade of tires is advisable.
Will be other sise, or you must find a H load tire.
If LT , same 129 LI can do, because calculated for 99mph, so dont have to be degraded by 6 LI steps.

I see you say 10% total weight for towbar. Would a calculation of 20-25% be more appropriate for a 5th wheel? My rig is not a Travel Trailer.

[CWtheMan]

Originally Posted by JSisemoreTX

Here's a pic of the OEM Factory G Rated tire that was on my 2020 Keystone Avalanche, blow out. Less than 7,000 miles on it. Inflated to 105 (cold, 110 max cold psi). Driving around 68 mph in route to Big Bend National Park (near Marfa 2 weeks back - BFE).

About to upgrade all tires, replace 1 rim, and install a TPMS system before our big summer trip.

#ReplaceThoseChinaBombs

Your trailer probably has 7000# Certified GAWRs. I say probably because the builder could have used a little less.

Using the RVIA 10% recommendation, tires rated at 3850# ea. could have been installed. That includes the RVIA recommendation and is 10% over vehicle manufacturer’s minimum requirement for 7000# axles.

Your OE tires provide 4400# of load capacity at the vehicle manufacturer recommended 110 PSI. That’s a 27% total load capacity above minimum. By lowering your inflation pressure to 105 PSI you lowered the load capacity reserves to nearly 21%. It’s not very conceivable that a toy hauler as large as yours can come even close to having your total cargo weight distributed evenly across two axles. Sometimes a single wheel/tire position will be well over half of the axle’s capability.

Your tires are among the best designed trailer tires used in the RV industry. All brands that build them must meet the TRA standards for all steel cased tires. The only mystery lies in the building materials that are confidential.

I’m not going to guess why your tire failed. There are many causes to be considered, unforeseen damages such as road hazards, under inflation and over loading lead the list.

[jadatis]

Higher then max psi given , was only to show that105psi you used most likely gave overheating once wich courced your blowout.


But in earlyer days up to 40% more was allowed, not anymore.
For ST 10 psi extra was adviced for 75mph.
And Continental groop gives nowadays still 10 psi above reference- pressure as " maximum inflation pressure ( cold)

To prove 95% that your tires are calculated in maxload for 65 mph, though 80 mph is given as max allowed, next.

In goodyear pdf

235/85R16
GOODYEAR endurance 4400lbs at 110 psi is LI 132
UNISTEEL G614 LT 3750 lbs at 110 is LI 126.
Your ST 235/80R 16 4080 lbs AT 110 psi.
Being 3 LI steps lower then /85 ST. Because of /80.
So the not existing LT /80 would have LI 123/ maxload 3420 lbs. Both /80 and /85 6 LI steps lower then ST, because of the 99mph for wich LT is always calculated.

Thev5thwh 20 to 25% on towbar/plate, I forgot, but do you have weighed that too?
If so lower pressure would be safe. But first check that.
If 20% on towbar my spreadsheet gives 100 psi for 14000 lbs total and 2800 on towbar.
But I think you assume a lot, that after weighing and inacuracies will prove different

[CWtheMan]

Originally Posted by jadatis

Higher then max psi given , was only to show that105psi you used most likely gave overheating once wich courced your blowout.


But in earlyer days up to 40% more was allowed, not anymore.
For ST 10 psi extra was adviced for 75mph.
And Continental groop gives nowadays still 10 psi above reference- pressure as " maximum inflation pressure ( cold)

To prove 95% that your tires are calculated in maxload for 65 mph, though 80 mph is given as max allowed, next.

In goodyear pdf

235/85R16
GOODYEAR endurance 4400lbs at 110 psi is LI 132
UNISTEEL G614 LT 3750 lbs at 110 is LI 126.
Your ST 235/80R 16 4080 lbs AT 110 psi.
Being 3 LI steps lower then /85 ST. Because of /80.
So the not existing LT /80 would have LI 123/ maxload 3420 lbs. Both /80 and /85 6 LI steps lower then ST, because of the 99mph for wich LT is always calculated.

Thev5thwh 20 to 25% on towbar/plate, I forgot, but do you have weighed that too?
If so lower pressure would be safe. But first check that.
If 20% on towbar my spreadsheet gives 100 psi for 14000 lbs total and 2800 on towbar.
But I think you assume a lot, that after weighing and inacuracies will prove different

We have two RV trailer tire manufacturers (Goodyear & Tow Max) that have, in the past, recommended as much as 10 PSI above the tire’s maximum inflation pressure displayed on the tire sidewall. The increase was not to gain load capacity, just speed. However, those manufacturer’s recommendations - although an accepted tire option – were in conflict with vehicle manufacturer recommendations which prevailed. Soon after that, such recommendations disappeared from internet documents.

The USA trucking industry have similar inflation pressures they frequently use. The best reference I've found that fully describes the procedures is the Michelin truck tire data book.

[jadatis]

Then study these pictures.
The one with the yelow line, trucktire with additional service-descriptions, they even have an official word for it. In Europe almost always on trucktires, so for other maxspeed, other loadindex/maxload. In these lower maxspeeds even 2 LI steps different/ 10kmph/6.5mph.
So herevalready my determined rule of tumb of 1 LI step does not go.
Roughly , when half the maxspeed, the tire is allowed 2ce as much deflection, wich gives root 2 is 1.41 x surface on the ground, so at same pressure 1.41 x as much maxload.

The other 2 pictures, Viking tire ( in the Continental-group), direct after the service descriptions 65 psi, wich is the referencepressure ( D-load ) , and the other picture, behind the maxload story, the " maximum Inflation pressure" of exaxt 10 psi higher so 75 psi between brackets, stangely first in kPa 519 kPa.

So here in Europe still given on new tires.
That officially higher pressure then reference is not allowed anymore, does not say that it suddenly is a problem to laws of nature.

And P- tires have reference-pressure of 35 psi , while maximum pressure ( cold) given on sidewall is between 44 and 51 psi.
XL reference 41 psi and maximum cold 44 to even 60 psi.


And the trucktire proves that maxload is speedrelated.

[Tireman9]

Originally Posted by JSisemoreTX

Here's a pic of the OEM Factory G Rated tire that was on my 2020 Keystone Avalanche, blow out. Less than 7,000 miles on it. Inflated to 105 (cold, 110 max cold psi). Driving around 68 mph in route to Big Bend National Park (near Marfa 2 weeks back - BFE).

About to upgrade all tires, replace 1 rim, and install a TPMS system before our big summer trip.

#ReplaceThoseChinaBombs

What was the placement on the RV of the two tires in the pictures? I note you were not running a TPMS prior to the failure so we do not know if the tire suffered a belt separation or a Run Low sidewall failure. (See this post)
Do you know that actual load you are placing on each tire?
Have you reported the tire failure to NHTSA yet? You will want to include the full DOT serial of the tire and VIN of the trailer in your complaint.

[Tireman9]

Originally Posted by JSisemoreTX

These tires are tested and speed rated to 80 mph....not that any responsible 5th wheel owner would do that, it is just a point.

I have not seen anyone yet or heard from anyone else that has ever suggested to go beyond the Cold Max PSI intentionally (which is clearly labeled as a max on the sidewall of 110).

I believe many people also drive these rigs with fresh water tank partially or Totally full AND with other basic items (another point). So are you suggesting if it was closer to my max GVWR that my cold tire inflation should have been 10, 15, or even 20 psi OVER the clearly stated max?

Clarification on the load and inflation numbers molded on the tire sidewall.


The Load number is the maximum load capacity of the tire when fully inflated to the 110 psi number which is really the MINIMUM inflation number needed to provide that load capacity.
ST tire loads are calculated based on a maximum operation speed of 65 mph. The "Speed Rating" number is just an indication of relative heat resistance for that specific tire vs other tires made by the same company.


A few years ago GY issued a Technical bulletin on the steps needed if the owner of ST tires wanted to run any faster than 65 mph. Those included increasing inflation by 10 psi and decreasing the actual load by 10%. But even with both those changes in place the max operating speed was 75 mph.


Some close up, in focus in full sunlight of the cords of the failed tire may provide some additional information on the reason for the failure. FYI, I am a Forensic Tire Engineer.

[JSisemoreTX]

Thanks for the great info TireMan9, makes sense.

[JSisemoreTX]

Update for the entire group - HiSpec Warranty did in-fact cover my wheel and tire under warranty and just mailed a new one to me. Warranty claim was quick, easy, painless and they took care of it in less than 5 biz days.

[RickV]

Originally Posted by JSisemoreTX

HiSpec stood by their product from a warranty perspective....

This is great to hear. It is getting rarer and rarer for companies to actually stand behind their product flaiures instead of trying to lay the blame on the consumer. They have my respect FWIW.

[rustyrider]

Simply question....

What is consider over heated tire temp???

never have heard anyone stateing what that temp is..

Running max weight on my toy hauler tires and I heat gun them every time

I stop, and I hate tell what the temp is running..

Thats why I would like someone that knows to state that.

The tires are 235 85 16 E rated..

Thanks for any info..Rich

[jadatis]

I once had a long conversation by telephone with a man from Vredestein, and he told me the tires are vulcanised at a temperature of 170 degrC/340degrF, and he also told me that goal of pressure determination is that the rubber dont reach a temperature, at wich to many sulfur bridges are created, wich make the rubber hard, and cracks are made, wich dont dissapear.
I estimate that this proces begins already at lower temp, think at 130degrC/270 degrF, but can be wrong.

What you measure wit a heatgun is only the outside, the inside and middle of thikker parts are hotter.

And also the temperature of inside-tire air is lower.
I think if no external factors, so only heating up of tire by the deflecting and flexing back of every segment of tire 10 to 20 times a second depending on speed, at ambiënt temp of 65 degrF , the air inside tire is allowed max 60 degrC/140 degrF. Then heating up and cooling down of rubber is in balance so the rubber wont reach the critical temp ( 270 degrF??) At any spot of tire.

When external factors like severe braking when descending mountains, the temp in tire can reach 100degrC/212 degrF , but then lower speed so mayby rubber still wont reach the 270 degrF.

When high ambiënt temp of fi 90 degr F, the tire inside not 90-65=25 degr hotter then 140 degrF allowed, but mayby 15 degr so 155 degr F , then still mayby no overheating, because pressure rises , wich gives lesser deflection so lesser heatproduction a cycle so at same speed.

All estimations of me, but gives an idea of what how the system works.

[flybouy]

I won't give you an "absolute" temp as I don't know what that is. I suppose you could ask the mfg of YOUR tires and ask them. To me common sense tells me to look for the "odd one", i.e. you have 4 -6 tires running on the same surface at the same speed, therefore if one of those tires is running "substantially " hotter /higher pressure then find out why.

I've seen my tire Temps and pressures vary side to side and it seems to correlate to sun or shade mainly. I've also noted a side to side difference on roads where the crown of the road is very noticeable and attributed that to more loading on the low side of the rig. We just returned from a 3 hr drive from Ocean City, MD and I had my TST 507 set to alarm at 110°. Why? This time of year with an ambient anywhere from 60°-85° I think that should be plenty of room for what I've observed as a "normal" range. The highest I observed on the ride home was 91° but the important thing was the tire on the same side in front of it was 88°, the two tires on the opposite side were 84° & 86° respectively.
Obviously I set the alarms differently as the summer heat and sun soak into the blacktop or concrete and what the anticipated highs are. This doesn't mean I change the alarms often, it just means that I'd like to know earlier if there's an issue and don't mind the annoyance if it "false alarms". The TPMS will alert you with a rapid loss of air but no trend on increasing pressure or temp. I prefer to know if something is going on so the I can being looking for a place to fit the 50' long rig on the side of the road and to monitor the change more closely while deciding if I need to investigate further.

I'm an old fashioned type as I like an instrument that tells me what's going on as opposed to a light or an alarm that tells me what just happened. I'm sure others use their instruments differently and that's all good. Hope this helps.