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Old 03-20-2021, 03:43 PM   #41
rhagfo
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Originally Posted by Javi View Post
Now just for xxxx & giggles repeat exactly except with a 200 pound buddy sitting on the bed.

That'll tell you a lot about loading and the affect on pin weight.
Interesting thought, does it go up by 200#, I think not, maybe 180# as our bed is about 4' back of the pin.

Inquiring minds need to know!
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Old 03-22-2021, 01:43 PM   #42
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AND ... if your 200# buddy stands in the rear of the RV, it would REDUCE pin weight
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Old 03-22-2021, 04:07 PM   #43
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AND ... if your 200# buddy stands in the rear of the RV, it would REDUCE pin weight
The wheels (pivot point for the trailer "see saw") are roughly 2/3's of the way back from the pin to the bumper, so the weight reduction "by standing on the bumper" is minimal at best...

Many people with 40' toyhaulers report that loading 1200 pounds in the garage may reduce pin weight by 300-400 pounds.... At that same time, if you put 1200 pounds "in the bedroom" you'll see significantly more weight on the pin as a result... Many (maybe most) toyhaulers are engineered with the axles as far back as possible to eliminate the "dramatic pin weight swings" from towing with the garage 'loaded or unloaded"... Most of the "garage weight limits" are not associated with floor capacity but rather by the dynamics the weigh places on trailer towability...

It's not a "one pound on, one pound result".....
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Old 03-23-2021, 02:37 AM   #44
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Along the lines of what John just said, a Harley Road King and sidecar at 1075 pounds reduced our pin weight about 140 pounds on the 40' Raptor.
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Old 03-23-2021, 07:14 AM   #45
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The point I was making was that if you load a bunch of weight behind the axle it will change the pin weight. In my experience the change would be proportional to the geometry or you unit. ( i.e. if your unit is 40' long, the axles are at 30', 1000lbs at the rear, would change the pin about 250lbs.)

I try to load items that weigh a lot, over the axles on any trailer I pull. Loading significant weight at either end of a trailer, is not a good idea, especially in the rear. I think that is how the people in the truck that ended up over the side of the bridge happened. I think they had a lot of weight behind the axle, and it got them to swaying back and forth, and they lost control.

I don't think we carry anywhere near 1200lbs in the bedroom, but you point is taken that any gain in pin weight is more than likely more than offset by the weight of personal items.
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Old 03-23-2021, 07:49 AM   #46
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The point I was making was that if you load a bunch of weight behind the axle it will change the pin weight. In my experience the change would be proportional to the geometry or you unit. ( i.e. if your unit is 40' long, the axles are at 30', 1000lbs at the rear, would change the pin about 250lbs.)

I try to load items that weigh a lot, over the axles on any trailer I pull. Loading significant weight at either end of a trailer, is not a good idea, especially in the rear. I think that is how the people in the truck that ended up over the side of the bridge happened. I think they had a lot of weight behind the axle, and it got them to swaying back and forth, and they lost control.

I don't think we carry anywhere near 1200lbs in the bedroom, but you point is taken that any gain in pin weight is more than likely more than offset by the weight of personal items.
It really isn't that difficult to add 1200 pounds in pin weight to a 5th wheel. Think about where most of the storage is.. Tools, ladder, parts, grill, griddle, fishing tackle, chairs, tables, extension cords, dog-bones, sewer hoses, elbows, drinking water hoses, black tank flushing hose, pressure regulator, and wye-fitting.. ect... All piled into the front compartment and basement. Then the DW's 11-teen pairs of shoes, towels, washrags, sheets, throws, bedspreads, and don't forget knickknacks...
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Old 03-23-2021, 08:13 AM   #47
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It really isn't that difficult to add 1200 pounds in pin weight to a 5th wheel. Think about where most of the storage is.. Tools, ladder, parts, grill, griddle, fishing tackle, chairs, tables, extension cords, dog-bones, sewer hoses, elbows, drinking water hoses, black tank flushing hose, pressure regulator, and wye-fitting.. ect... All piled into the front compartment and basement. Then the DW's 11-teen pairs of shoes, towels, washrags, sheets, throws, bedspreads, and don't forget knickknacks...

And don't forget DW's "crafts" to keep her occupied....boxes full of wood and tools for carving; boxes full of clay and tools for her clay work; boxes of sea shells in various stages of being made into "something"; knitting; crocheting....and the list goes on. As I was trying to find room for everything I did find space to stuff in a pair of underwear and I told her. With a wry smile she said "count your blessings - guess I didn't see that spot".
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Old 03-23-2021, 08:36 AM   #48
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And don't forget DW's "crafts" to keep her occupied....boxes full of wood and tools for carving; boxes full of clay and tools for her clay work; boxes of sea shells in various stages of being made into "something"; knitting; crocheting....and the list goes on. As I was trying to find room for everything I did find space to stuff in a pair of underwear and I told her. With a wry smile she said "count your blessings - guess I didn't see that spot".
I've been watching this and reading it and it occurred to me long ago (several years in fact) that all the storage is up front in a fifth wheel, sometimes including those huge Onan generators. I didn't say anything because I wasn't educated enough on the specifics of all the 5er cargo areas, hidden or not. I'll keep this one in mind too should that day come that we (I) start looking for a small fifth wheel. It's another reason our TT layout works well for us. Those folding chairs and little plastic chairs and the outdoor rug all fit nicely in the outside rear cargo door under the lower bunk. It keeps "my" stuff from "her" stuff and mine is heavier, kinda like Javi said... all those necessary items that make a camper work like a camper should work.
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Old 03-23-2021, 08:53 AM   #49
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I've been watching this and reading it and it occurred to me long ago (several years in fact) that all the storage is up front in a fifth wheel, sometimes including those huge Onan generators. I didn't say anything because I wasn't educated enough on the specifics of all the 5er cargo areas, hidden or not. I'll keep this one in mind too should that day come that we (I) start looking for a small fifth wheel. It's another reason our TT layout works well for us. Those folding chairs and little plastic chairs and the outdoor rug all fit nicely in the outside rear cargo door under the lower bunk. It keeps "my" stuff from "her" stuff and mine is heavier, kinda like Javi said... all those necessary items that make a camper work like a camper should work.
Yep... here is a photo of my 34' 11" Avalanche.. notice the wheel placement
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Old 03-25-2021, 07:45 AM   #50
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they are still probably under rated at that even. Im sure the guns are lining up at me now.

As a side note i did look at a gentlemen's 2021 ram 2500 parked next to me in camp spot this week. Bighorn, cummins, 2WD cc lb(i have never even seen a 2wd in real life before. Payload tag on it was 2320. So clearly no movement from Ram. He was towing a 36 ft fiver, said it tows great, i figured he was likely over payload for sure, it was a Signature Forest River rockwood.
Crazy how much weight the Cummins and big horn package add. My 2016 6.4 crew 4x4 tradesman has a payload of 3100 on the yellow sticker.
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Old 03-25-2021, 08:19 AM   #51
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I will never understand for the life of me why anyone buys a 3/4 ton truck to tow a 5th wheel with when for not very much more money they could have bought a 3500SRW and have that much more payload capacity. Unloaded ride quality is comparable between the 3/4T and 1T (Ram at least). I just don't get it the reasoning.
I can answer this. We drove trucks when it was 20 degrees out and the 3/4 ton rode better...it would also be spending 80% of it’s time as a daily driver nearly completely unloaded.

(If I knew then what I know now...)
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Old 03-25-2021, 08:21 AM   #52
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And right in the middle of the numbers game is Corporate Fuel Economy. Something that the auto makers have to figure in as to how they pass out weight stickers versus how many little cars they sell. It's just another shell game played out to meet fuel economy standards dictated by the federal government.
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Old 03-25-2021, 08:57 AM   #53
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I have a few questions regarding this issue .. shouldn’t the axle weight dictate how much payload you can carry ..I understand the braking system part but if you’re towing a 5th wheeler the camper braking system also helps in braking also these new trucks like mine also has exhaust braking
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Old 03-25-2021, 09:09 AM   #54
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I have a few questions regarding this issue .. shouldn’t the axle weight dictate how much payload you can carry ..I understand the braking system part but if you’re towing a 5th wheeler the camper braking system also helps in braking also these new trucks like mine also has exhaust braking

The difference between your actual truck weight and actual gvwr is your payload. The max axle weights are there to let you know you've now surpassed most safe weight levels and are about to watch your axle tubes break at 65mph..... Your truck has multiple weight limitations - they all apply and if you exceed any one of them you are then overweight.
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Old 03-25-2021, 09:28 AM   #55
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Understood so is it safe to say a 2016F250 diesel with a max rear axle rating of 8800lbs and a payload of 2000lbs can pull a 5er with a pin weight of let’s say 2200lbs ... passengers, cargo and pin weight to about 3500lbs. We’re still way short of the max axle rating and again the braking is shared by truck and camper
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Old 03-25-2021, 09:31 AM   #56
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I can answer this. We drove trucks when it was 20 degrees out and the 3/4 ton rode better...it would also be spending 80% of it’s time as a daily driver nearly completely unloaded.

(If I knew then what I know now...)
I've heard this "reasoning" before but I don't agree with it. From my experience and from anecdotal reports the recent 1 ton trucks ride about the came as a 3/4 and I don't understand the difference the temperature makes. Saying it will only be used to tow 20% of the time . Take a revolver, insert one round, spin it and place it against your temple and pull the trigger. Having 5 out of 6 chambers empty means you have an 83.33% chance the hammer will fall on an empty chamber. I'm not willing to take those odds. I'm also not willing to take a 1 in 5 chance (20%) knowing that there's a 100% chance of driving a truck that's overloaded. I also don't appreciate someone driving down the road pointing a gun at me playing "Russian Roulette" or with a truck passing me doing the same with an overloaded set up. JMHO, YMMV
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Old 03-25-2021, 09:36 AM   #57
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Not at all. You exceeded your weights with the pin over the 2000lb. payload. You are also missing a lot of numbers. What does the truck weigh? How much weight is on the rear axle currently etc. etc.? Your rear axle gawr of 8800lbs. does not sound right.
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Old 03-25-2021, 09:39 AM   #58
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With all this debate there is one thing to consider. ALL weights and claims by manufacturers MUST first clear and be approved by the DOT and prove these new weight claims. No matter what “marketing” guys might say, the DOT has the final word. As far as towing with a 2500, many people make the mistake of buying the TV before they buy the 5er (me!). Many folks cannot or do not want to take the financial hit to do an upgrade to a new TV. People make the assumption that the 2500 was bought new to tow the 5er, when in many cases they already owned the 2500 then decided to get a 5er. My tv was a certified used diesel to start with (2017). When I bought my 5er the dealer would not release it to me until I had some modifications to my vehicle as I was overweight from the git go. Most dealers wont do this. They just want to sell you an RV. They sent my TV for DOT certified modifications, which consisted of a new spring pack. The certified shop affixed a NEW yellow certification sticker with my new GVWR, and GRAWR. I had also increased the tires to the next load range up. According to the DOT, I am now towing underweight by about 450 pounds fully loaded with full fuel, and all my “stuff” in the 5er with 15 gal of water in the fresh tank and 12 gal in hot water heater, according to the CAT scales. The mods cost me about $2,500. Thousands cheaper than a new TV and I am safe and legal in all 50 states. Again, the DOT governs and sets the specs for all certified vehicle aftermarket modifications. NOT the weight police on this forum, which most have no experience or knowledge about the subject. I also have air bags that really soften the ride and level my rig. They don’t increase any weight ratings, though in reality, can carry a lot of the weight. I like the airbags over shocks because they are far more adjustable. Can 2500 legally and safely carry a heavy fiver? Yes, with the right CERTIFIED modifications. How do brand new TV’s get new ratings? They modify their vehicles! The same can be done with used TV’s. My dimes worth.
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Old 03-25-2021, 09:42 AM   #59
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Understood so is it safe to say a 2016F250 diesel with a max rear axle rating of 8800lbs and a payload of 2000lbs can pull a 5er with a pin weight of let’s say 2200lbs ... passengers, cargo and pin weight to about 3500lbs. We’re still way short of the max axle rating and again the braking is shared by truck and camper
Weight ratings are not like a Chinese menu. Exceed one and you have exceed a maximum period. You can be under all; but one rating but that one rating you have exceeded is all that matters.
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Old 03-25-2021, 09:48 AM   #60
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I will never understand for the life of me why anyone buys a 3/4 ton truck to tow a 5th wheel with when for not very much more money they could have bought a 3500SRW and have that much more payload capacity. Unloaded ride quality is comparable between the 3/4T and 1T (Ram at least). I just don't get it the reasoning.
Plus here in MN the annual road tax (license plate) on a new 3/4T starts at $800+ and a 1T is less than $250. I have no idea why.
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