Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×
 

Go Back   Keystone RV Forums > Keystone Tech Forums > Keystone Questions
Click Here to Login

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 10-20-2013, 08:55 PM   #21
Festus2
Site Team
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Fraser Valley BC Canada
Posts: 7,015
Bob -
Have you considered sending your findings to Keystone asking the same question you asked here --- What does this unit have that makes it a "Polar Package"?

I would be interested in hearing what Keystone's response is to a "politely-worded" email or phone call? (If they do, in fact, reply at all).
__________________
2008 Cougar 5th Wheel 27RKS
2005 2500 GMC Duramax
Festus2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2013, 03:41 AM   #22
Bob Landry
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Austin, Tx
Posts: 1,910
Quote:
Originally Posted by Festus2 View Post
Bob -
Have you considered sending your findings to Keystone asking the same question you asked here --- What does this unit have that makes it a "Polar Package"?

I would be interested in hearing what Keystone's response is to a "politely-worded" email or phone call? (If they do, in fact, reply at all).
I intend to do just that, and I think I'll make it a phone call. They have a way of skating around emails that they don't like. Since I never seem to be able to get past the girl that answers the phone and always has all the answers, I think it will be rather amusing to listen to her dance around this question.
__________________
2011 Outback 277RL
2013 F250 XLT Crew Cab 6.2L

Bitter Gun Owner
Bitter Clinger
Armed Infidel
Bob Landry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2013, 06:56 AM   #23
Festus2
Site Team
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Fraser Valley BC Canada
Posts: 7,015
Bob -
Be sure to share their response with us. We could all use a bit of humour.
__________________
2008 Cougar 5th Wheel 27RKS
2005 2500 GMC Duramax
Festus2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2013, 09:15 AM   #24
Bob Landry
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Austin, Tx
Posts: 1,910
Quote:
Originally Posted by Festus2 View Post
Bob -
Be sure to share their response with us. We could all use a bit of humour.
Well, I did have an uneventful conversation with Keystone's Customer Service this AM. The guy I talked to really wanted to be helpful, especially after mentioning that several threads have surfaced on the Internet forums about Keystone's cold weather packages that they use to market their trailers. He did put me a on hold a couple of times to "look something up". AKA, reading the product brochure, but that yielded no relevant information. I ended the call with exactly what I expected. He could not tell me what the Polar Package consists of other than quoting the usual "R" value of styrofoam insulation. He did say mention a 2" duct that comes off the heater that goes to the tank area, but when I told him my trailer did not have it, he had no answer except maybe it came off the main duct closer to the tanks. He also didn't have an explanation for no insulation under the coroplast, nor for the unsealed holes in the floor for water and electrical routing.
He concluded the call by saying that anyone contemplating using their trailer in sustained extreme cold conditions should use their own judgement as to what might be required to protect their trailer plumbing and holding tank systems. Duh!! Really?

I think that after all of this, I'll fall back in agreement that someone previously said and that is, Keystone doesn't make a trailer suitable for extended cld weather camping without some serious improvements.
__________________
2011 Outback 277RL
2013 F250 XLT Crew Cab 6.2L

Bitter Gun Owner
Bitter Clinger
Armed Infidel
Bob Landry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2013, 11:48 AM   #25
ktmracer
Senior Member
 
ktmracer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 321
some of the new west coast cougars appear to be much more well insulated with a different "winter" package than the polar package. thermopane windows, foam in the attic instead of fiberglass batts. Insulation in the pass throughs next to beds, insulation along the frame rails and above the coreplast. Direct heat to the underbelly.

Claim is you can use the trailer down to 0F.

Still, given the window area and sidewall thickness, there is only so much you can do to keep heat in.
__________________
Outback 295RE

2004 Silverado CC/SB/ 4x4 Duramax
Pace 14' bike hauler with full living quarters
ktmracer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2013, 02:00 PM   #26
Festus2
Site Team
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Fraser Valley BC Canada
Posts: 7,015
Quote:
Originally Posted by ktmracer View Post
some of the new west coast cougars appear to be much more well insulated with a different "winter" package than the polar package. thermopane windows, foam in the attic instead of fiberglass batts. Insulation in the pass throughs next to beds, insulation along the frame rails and above the coreplast. Direct heat to the underbelly.

Claim is you can use the trailer down to 0F.

Still, given the window area and sidewall thickness, there is only so much you can do to keep heat in.
ktmracer:

Almost all of the above "improvements" seem focused on keeping the interior of the RV warm and toasty. Now, what steps have been taken to protect both the tanks and the water lines. The tanks are housed in the underbelly and a sizeable length of water lines are in exterior storage compartments or in other unprotected areas.

Unless the underbelly is protected with adequate amounts of properly placed insulation and all the openings are sealed to prevent outside air from penetrating into the opening, I am left to wonder about how effective is "direct heat to the underbelly". Having direct heat is great as long as this heat arrives in sufficient quantity, is not diluted with cold air making its way into the underbelly and has enough insulation to make it effective.

Sorry, I just can't buy Keystone's claim that the West Coast newer models are good to 0 degrees F. Have they found a way to keep the tanks and water lines from freezing? Run the furnace 24/7? Place heaters in compartments?

I think that the "answer" Bob got from Keystone pretty much sums it up..... "use your own judgment". Real comforting.
__________________
2008 Cougar 5th Wheel 27RKS
2005 2500 GMC Duramax
Festus2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2013, 08:45 PM   #27
ktmracer
Senior Member
 
ktmracer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by Festus2 View Post
ktmracer:

Almost all of the above "improvements" seem focused on keeping the interior of the RV warm and toasty. Now, what steps have been taken to protect both the tanks and the water lines. The tanks are housed in the underbelly and a sizeable length of water lines are in exterior storage compartments or in other unprotected areas.

Unless the underbelly is protected with adequate amounts of properly placed insulation and all the openings are sealed to prevent outside air from penetrating into the opening, I am left to wonder about how effective is "direct heat to the underbelly". Having direct heat is great as long as this heat arrives in sufficient quantity, is not diluted with cold air making its way into the underbelly and has enough insulation to make it effective.

Sorry, I just can't buy Keystone's claim that the West Coast newer models are good to 0 degrees F. Have they found a way to keep the tanks and water lines from freezing? Run the furnace 24/7? Place heaters in compartments?

I think that the "answer" Bob got from Keystone pretty much sums it up..... "use your own judgment". Real comforting.
to clarify. the frame rails in the underbelly are insulated as well as insulation above(on) the coreplast on the west coast package. so the underbelly has substantially more insulation than the outback/keystone "polar package". How good who knows?

What I can say is that with my mod punching 1/2" dia holes in the floor vent pans, our outback underbelly stays at interior temps. We camp when nighttimes are in the 15F range and above freezing during the day. Haven't had any issues. But IMHO that's about the limit for the trailer. much lower and the furnace is going to be running all the time. When it is 15F at night, the interior thermostat is set for 45F and the underbelly sits at 45F as well, checked it with a remote temp sender to see if I was in trouble.

so... I believe that with the changes in the cougars, including better insulation for the underbelly it should be a substantial improvement. Still not 4 season IMHO, but a much much better 3 season.
__________________
Outback 295RE

2004 Silverado CC/SB/ 4x4 Duramax
Pace 14' bike hauler with full living quarters
ktmracer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2013, 03:56 AM   #28
Bob Landry
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Austin, Tx
Posts: 1,910
IMO, Keystone does the RV buying public a great disservice by mis-representing a product that can be and is assumed suitable for a purpose which it is not. This especially detrimental to people who full-time and plop down $50K or more for a trailer and have a valid need for a 4 season trailer. Many owners are not as skeptical and I am and will have no idea that the cold weather protection simply isn't there until they wake up on a freezing day and have to deal with ruptured pipes. Keystone's and also other builders' defense, well, surely there are days in the Arctic when it doesn't freeze.
__________________
2011 Outback 277RL
2013 F250 XLT Crew Cab 6.2L

Bitter Gun Owner
Bitter Clinger
Armed Infidel
Bob Landry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2013, 06:23 AM   #29
JRTJH
Site Team
 
JRTJH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Gaylord
Posts: 26,836
Our Holiday Rambler had a fully enclosed aluminum underbelly with 3" of spun fiberglass insulation laying on top of the aluminum. That puts it under the tanks and water/plumbing lines. The furnace ducting was attached to the underside of the floor and had openings along the length venting hot air into the "fully enclosed and insulated basement" to keep it warm. We felt comfortable down to about 20 or so in that trailer.

It was my experience with that trailer that we could prevent frozen water lines or tank valves simply by keeping the thermostat set above 50 or 60 *F. The problems we faced with that trailer and which will be present in any Keystone product, is not really the basement, but the entry water supply, the sewer drain line and the RV walls/windows/doors.

No matter what you do to the basement, you're still facing R7 or R9 walls, single pane or "light duty dual pane" windows and tremendous heat loss through those basic structures. It's not impossible, but rather very expensive to insulate to R19 in a 2" space. Trying to make a "true 4 season" camper means using expensive materials, increased man hours in manufacturing and rephrasing the sales literature. I don't think Keystone is willing to do that.....

It's not "just Keystone" but every RV manufacturer claims to have "cold weather camping capability" of some sort. Flagstaff advertises "True 6 sided vacuum bonded foam insulation" and "electrically heated holding tanks" BUT THEY STILL HAVE R-7 SIDEWALLS and single pane windows!!! The list goes on and on.......

About the only way you're going to get a "true 4 season camper" is to get above the $100K price range, and then, you'd better be very selective in what you believe and what you buy or you'll still be disappointed. And even with some of the "over 100K trailers, the way they deal with "cold weather camping" is to add a second furnace to keep up with the heat loss that thin walls mandate. Imagine the propane use with two 42000 BTU furnaces running 24/7 !!!

I think the "bad thing" (if we have to put blame) is in the marketing. If Keystone would simply be honest and call the package "Almost Polar" or "Nearly Arctic" they would be much closer to the truth. They do need to stop misrepresenting their products capability. Until then, we'll all still be disappointed with their claims and lack of ability to provide what they promise.
__________________
John



2015 F250 6.7l 4x4
2014 Cougar X Lite 27RKS
JRTJH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2013, 09:29 AM   #30
airforceret
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Mishawaka, Indiana
Posts: 238
I grew up living in mobile homes in the Midwest. We endured some very severe winters with brutal below zero temps and survived. You can make most of these trailers capable of making it through the winter with some planning and some effort. Mobile homes of the 60s and 70s were not what they are today and it was a constant struggle to not have frozen water or sewer lines. We often had to leave cabinets open and faucets running in an effort to prevent freezing. The wind would blow and so would the curtains... it wasn't always easy.. but it was every day life!!!

The fact they sit off the ground means they will always be susceptible to freezing temps!!!

Without a doubt the polar package on my keystone is better today than what we had on the bottom of our mobile home in the early 70s.
__________________
Roger and Dawn
Mishawaka, Indiana
2013 Cougar 280RLS / 2012 Silverado 2500HD Duramax/Allison
2001 Wrangler (Moab Rock Crawler) / 2008 Can Am Outlander 400 4x4
airforceret is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2013, 10:21 AM   #31
JRTJH
Site Team
 
JRTJH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Gaylord
Posts: 26,836
When we were stationed at Lowry AFB in Denver, we had friends that dragged their 12x65 ft mobile home from Florida to Colorado. They parked it as close to Denver as they could find a spot in a mobile home park. That was out near Strasburg (on the plains). Two by four walls, "maybe 3" of fiberglass insulation between the inside pressboard paneling and the outside "tin siding" made for some pretty cold nights. When the cold winds and snow came, it seemed there was as much snow inside as there was outside. The aluminum framed windows that leaked as much as they stopped sure didn't help. They wound up spending a number of nights with us because they simply couldn't keep their trailer warm enough for their two kids.

Yes, mobile home construction has improved significantly, and in some ways, travel trailer construction has improved. But it seems the manufacturers are still "sort of" thinking along the lines of the automotive industry than the home industry with their "R value" and "energy savings" agenda. They seem to think, "As long as the furnace is running, it'll be comfortable inside." Like the auto industry, they really don't consider "when the furnace is not running."

Next time you're in a big box store, take a look at the square footage recommendations on the side of a window air conditioner box. They recommend 8,000 BTU for a 350 sq ft room. A 36 ft fifth wheel with two slides (sort of an average fifth wheel in size) is about 345 sq ft of floor space and we need two 13.500 A/C's to cool it and often wish for two 15K A/C's because they cool "better" That's more than 3 times the BTU required for a home room of near equal size, just to sufficiently (note I didn't say efficiently) cool the inside on a "warm day."

I wonder when (if ever) Keystone and other manufacturers will get their act together??????

Is it any wonder if we can't keep the heat out in the summer that we can't keep the heat in during the winter?
__________________
John



2015 F250 6.7l 4x4
2014 Cougar X Lite 27RKS
JRTJH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2013, 04:03 AM   #32
mguay
Senior Member
 
mguay's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Northern NH
Posts: 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRTJH View Post

Next time you're in a big box store, take a look at the square footage recommendations on the side of a window air conditioner box. They recommend 8,000 BTU for a 350 sq ft room. A 36 ft fifth wheel with two slides (sort of an average fifth wheel in size) is about 345 sq ft of floor space and we need two 13.500 A/C's to cool it and often wish for two 15K A/C's because they cool "better" That's more than 3 times the BTU required for a home room of near equal size, just to sufficiently (note I didn't say efficiently) cool the inside on a "warm day."

Is it any wonder if we can't keep the heat out in the summer that we can't keep the heat in during the winter?
The above statement is a PERFECT analogy!

I am in the insulation business and have learned an important thing in the past 10yrs. It isn't all about the r-value. I have seen homes with an over abundance of insulation that are colder than stone. Yes the windows usually have the lowest r-value in the equation...but it's not usually the problem.

The biggest issue when heating and cooling are "Air Leakage".

A Hot Air Balloon is similar to a RV. In the balloon...the heat is added through an open (to the exterior air) hole in the bottom and the balloon rises as the air in it gets warmer. When you wand to descend.....open the flap at the top and not only let hot air out...but let the cold air in the bottom.

A RV has the same principal. The way that construction happens above the floor is far from "Air Sealed". I am not saying that it should be a bubble...but there are many areas that could be improved upon...like, Windows, there isn't a RV window that I have ever seen that is 100% air tight. How about the trim around roof vents and the vents themselves? Spend a night in there when the wind is blowing a steady 30mph and you'll see what I mean. The real eye-opener for me about RV air sealing was last March while making our normal run to Florida for the month. The outside temps hovered around the dew point the whole trip. When we would stop for the night and enter the 5er...the windows, mirrors and walls were covered in moisture, just like fogging the mirror in the bathroom. Run the heater for awhile and it would dry up.

So here's my point,
Temperature is NOT air movement...temperature CREATES air movement.
Heat rises and pulls air with it and Cold settles and pulls air with it. Hence Heat ducts in the floor and AC ducts in the ceiling.
Here's the problem, as the heat rises...if it is allowed to...it pulls "unconditioned" air from below. So in the case of an RV when you run the furnace, the heat is pulling cold air threw the "non-insulated/non-air sealed" underbelly. Introducing the cold air into the interior and the furnace has a hard time to keep up. When trying to cool with the AC...the action is reversed but is actually worse because of the "nons" in the belly and the cool air falls out...so to speak.

Follow this http://www.keystonerv.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10892to what I found and did with my under belly...with advise from GEO "The Lord of the Underbelly". I can report that we had quite a few days in the mid 90's and the AC was much more even. We also had a few nights at the beginning of OCT in the low 30's and the furnace just sipped the LP.
__________________
2015 GMC Sierra 3500 Denali CC LB DRW Sonoma Red/Cocoa Dune
2010 Keystone Laredo 316RL
mguay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2013, 04:05 AM   #33
airforceret
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Mishawaka, Indiana
Posts: 238
Funny you should mention those A/C units at the box store. My brother has built a number custom ATV trailers (now referred to as toy haulers) and what is really sad is that his little window units have consistently outperformed my RV roof units. He quit installing roof units years ago and only installs box store units. Personally I think the roof units of today are overrated. My 1999 would run you out of the trailer parked in the sun in Vegas at Sam's Town when it was 108 outside. My 2013 struggles to cool and maintain a decent temp when its 85 outside. If it wasn't so new and pretty, I'd cut a hole in it and install an aftermarket box store a/c (maybe next year).
__________________
Roger and Dawn
Mishawaka, Indiana
2013 Cougar 280RLS / 2012 Silverado 2500HD Duramax/Allison
2001 Wrangler (Moab Rock Crawler) / 2008 Can Am Outlander 400 4x4
airforceret is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2013, 10:45 PM   #34
Western Traveler
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Montana
Posts: 213
I realize most are talking full time here with larger rigs but I have been Combing the forum for winter package info as I await delivery of my 21RBSWE. I hunt Montana in the fall and have had temps drop from 20F to -20F overnight. I realize I will be lucky to maintain a comfortable camp at even that higher temp.
I met the Keystone West Coast Rep and he swore the "New" Western Edition Polar Plus+ were tested to "0"F.
I plan on looking in the underbelly at delivery just to see what's there.
The salesman said "Just know All these rigs are three season at best."
I had looked at Arctic Fox and Lance before choosing my Cougar.

So I was in the mountains a couple of weeks ago traveling on a two track to a trailhead and saw an Arctic Fox set up on a turnout. Daytime Temp about 30 F and snowing. That afternoon on the way out I saw the hunter at his rig and stopped to chat. I asked if he was set up full service and he said no that he was winterized and didn't think he could operate in the teens and doubted any of the smaller rigs could.
Arctic Fox claims to be a true 4 season and a comparable rig to mine weighs in a lot higher (a big reason I passed on it).
So the reality of all this for me is winterized rig for late season hunts.
Unless someone has experience with the "New" Polar Package Plus+ that could enlighten me.
Western Traveler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2013, 11:21 PM   #35
Festus2
Site Team
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Fraser Valley BC Canada
Posts: 7,015
[QUOTE=Western Traveler;102921]
I met the Keystone West Coast Rep and he swore the "New" Western Edition Polar Plus+ were tested to "0"F.

Oh, I see we have yet another sticker ...."Polar Plus". As a representative of Keystone, what else could he say? Did you notice that his nose grew 4 inches while he "swore"?


The salesman said "Just know All these rigs are three season at best."

Oh, an RV salesman who seems to know what he is talking about. Now that's novel.
QUOTE]
__________________
2008 Cougar 5th Wheel 27RKS
2005 2500 GMC Duramax
Festus2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2013, 05:29 AM   #36
Bob Landry
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Austin, Tx
Posts: 1,910
I would have to go back and read the warranty, but if I remember correctly, Keystone's warranty does not apply to trailers that are used for anything but recreation, that would be excluding full time living. I think Keystone and everyone else takes the approach that if it gets to hot or too cold, we have the option of shutting it down and going home and crank up the AC or sit under an afghan in the living room with a cup of coffee. Some of us have that luxury, many don't. At any rate, we are on our own and it's up to us to determine the extreme capabilities of our trailers and take appropriate measure for anything other than three season use. It's just sad that the trailer manufacturers, not just Keystone, are permitted to carry on with this form of false advertising. If you are going to build a product with reduced capabilities, own up to it and represent it for what it actually is.
__________________
2011 Outback 277RL
2013 F250 XLT Crew Cab 6.2L

Bitter Gun Owner
Bitter Clinger
Armed Infidel
Bob Landry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2013, 11:02 AM   #37
Yeti
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Bonnyville
Posts: 12
Me and the dw are staying in our cougar it's has the polar package. It was -30 last week for 3 days and -25 for rest of the week I burned 60lbs in 6 days I have skirting for my rig but did not have the slides wrapped. Now I have my slides wrapped and it has warmed up outside just my luck. I have had no problems with anything freezing but it's still early in the season lol. Oh and I run a small heater underneath just to be safe
Yeti is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by the Keystone RV Company or any of its affiliates in any way. Keystone RV® is a registered trademark of the Keystone RV Company.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 12:30 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.