Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×
 

Go Back   Keystone RV Forums > Keystone Fleet | Keystone RV Models > Fifth Wheels
Click Here to Login

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 11-15-2020, 03:59 PM   #61
lunge motorsport
Member
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: San Ramon
Posts: 75
Here’s my take on disc conversions, ie, Kodiak vs Dexter

I did a 7k Dexter Torflex axle and disc conversion on my coach and the braking is now spectacular. If you’re considering this modification, I have some info that may be of interest.

I looked to Etrailer for the specifications of replacement brake caliper piston diameter for each manufacturer in the 8k range, to keep things simple. For this equation I will use an actuator output rating of 1000 psi although most disc brake actuators are significantly higher and more in the 1600 psi range, again I did this to keep the math simple.


Kodiak is using a single piston sliding caliper design with a piston diameter of 2.5’’, Dexter uses a 4 piston fixed caliper with each piston having a diameter of 1.875’’.

Given 1000 psi of actuator pressure and a Kodiak piston diameter of 2.5’’, there is 4908 lbs of force generated at the caliper. A Dexter piston diameter of 1.875’’ will make 2,761 lbs of force for each piston and there are 4 of them, so that number now becomes 11,044 lbs of force at the caliper.


If all other parameters are equal, brake rotor diameter, distance from the center of the rotors rotating mass to the outboard edge of the pads, and the pad size, an 8k Dexter 4 piston caliper generates about 2.25 times the force as an 8k Kodiak caliper.


This is why, in my opinion, Dexter fixed 4 piston calipers are significantly superior to any sliding single piston caliper braking system that I have seen.


It doesn’t matter to me which manufacturer owns the other, or the price of replacement pads or parts. It’s about brake effectiveness after all the math is exposed.

Cheers
__________________
Truck & trailer...yes
They have many features and upgrades, more than I can list, so much, did I mention they are well equipped, I don’t know if I have enough room here....and I really don’t think you care anyway, so nope
lunge motorsport is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2021, 08:22 PM   #62
Brentw
Senior Member
 
Brentw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Chetwynd, BC
Posts: 378
Thanks for the info, have you completed yours yet? Who did you order from.?
__________________
Brent W
2019 Duramax dually
2015 Fuzion 325
2008 Goldwing
Brentw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2021, 08:41 PM   #63
HDroadglide
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Briggs
Posts: 54
I had mine done in Norman Ok. because I was passing through, but they will come to where ever you are and install the brakes at your location.
The company is "Performance Trailer Breaking" in Norman Ok.
If you have any question just call them they are great people to work with.

This is the second 5th wheel toyhauler that I have had them install on.
HDroadglide is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2021, 09:44 AM   #64
EMTPRescue
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Calgary
Posts: 44
cenders, the stock brakes have no where near the braking capacity to "lock up" the wheels unless you are say on loose gravel and your trailer is empty like towing it down your back alley.

When setting your brake controller, my experience has always been that the controller is set too high if when you just lightly apply the brakes the RV jerkers quite noticeably with it being obvious that the trailer is applying significantly more braking power than is the truck.

As I mentioned in my previous posts, my OE GMC Brake Controller is set to 10 and though the trailer braking is noticeable, it is only "safe" (in my opinion) during regular traffic "non panic" type stops.

I drive heavy vehicles, fast, in heavy traffic on an emergency response basis for a living. I am very aware of and have experienced brake fade at the worst possible time while responding.

I invite everyone questioning their braking systems to actually research how the RV Drum brake system works. In my mind it is a horrible system. Relying on a magnet to drag along a flat service (the brake drum) and through that dragging resistance, then moving a series of sliding parts to push the brake shoes against the brake drum seems to me to be just plain stupid.

Because these RV's are not motorized and are not self-propelled, the regulation that goes into building them is slim to non. As a result, when the weight of the RV gets to a point where the brakes have to perform to the equivalent standard as that of the tow vehicle, we as unwitting consumers get to suffer the consequences of the engineering inadequacies.

Heat is the enemy of braking. The heat that is generated just from the magnet dragging on the brake drum, heats up the drum even before the shoes have started to be applied to the drum to initiate the braking process. That ancillary heat generation that does nothing to create braking, just puts the wheel closer to the "brake fade" threshold.

I have not yet purchased my disc brake conversion components. That will be a spring project once I don't have to crawl around in snow and -20C temperatures.

I did see on Amazon.ca that they had a Dexter, electric over hydraulic disc brake actuator for sale. In advance of the project I might pull the trigger on that piece. I think I have made a decision to buy Dexter parts. I know they will fit, they are made for my axles and most importantly they will be around in the future to sell me parts should I need them. Getting parts out the US and returning them for warranty is a huge pain as us Canucks know all too well.
EMTPRescue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2021, 10:04 AM   #65
EMTPRescue
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Calgary
Posts: 44
BrentW, I have not yet purchased any of my components.

I see that you are a fellow Canuck. As you are aware, getting these parts out of the US particularly with our Canuck Peso being worth roughly $.65 of an American Green back adds an entirely different dynamic to the decision making process.

I am going to go with Dexter for that reason. They make my axles. They have been around for more than 50 years, have been an industry leader for as many years and warranty is honored by an as equally well established Calgary trailer and suspension company called Standens. Additionally all the parts will fit and I don't have to worry about where to get consumables like brake pads and rotors going forward. All of the other companies in the US are smaller in size, have not been around as long and quite frankly concern me as to parts availability in the future.

Stay tuned. Once I get started with my conversion in the spring I have no doubt that I will valuable information to post.
EMTPRescue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2021, 10:36 AM   #66
Brentw
Senior Member
 
Brentw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Chetwynd, BC
Posts: 378
Good stuff, thanks.
And a good thread.
__________________
Brent W
2019 Duramax dually
2015 Fuzion 325
2008 Goldwing
Brentw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2021, 10:56 AM   #67
travelin texans
Senior Member
 
travelin texans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Picacho, Az
Posts: 6,809
Quote:
Originally Posted by EMTPRescue View Post
cenders, the stock brakes have no where near the braking capacity to "lock up" the wheels unless you are say on loose gravel and your trailer is empty like towing it down your back alley.

When setting your brake controller, my experience has always been that the controller is set too high if when you just lightly apply the brakes the RV jerkers quite noticeably with it being obvious that the trailer is applying significantly more braking power than is the truck.

As I mentioned in my previous posts, my OE GMC Brake Controller is set to 10 and though the trailer braking is noticeable, it is only "safe" (in my opinion) during regular traffic "non panic" type stops.

I drive heavy vehicles, fast, in heavy traffic on an emergency response basis for a living. I am very aware of and have experienced brake fade at the worst possible time while responding.

I invite everyone questioning their braking systems to actually research how the RV Drum brake system works. In my mind it is a horrible system. Relying on a magnet to drag along a flat service (the brake drum) and through that dragging resistance, then moving a series of sliding parts to push the brake shoes against the brake drum seems to me to be just plain stupid.

Because these RV's are not motorized and are not self-propelled, the regulation that goes into building them is slim to non. As a result, when the weight of the RV gets to a point where the brakes have to perform to the equivalent standard as that of the tow vehicle, we as unwitting consumers get to suffer the consequences of the engineering inadequacies.

Heat is the enemy of braking. The heat that is generated just from the magnet dragging on the brake drum, heats up the drum even before the shoes have started to be applied to the drum to initiate the braking process. That ancillary heat generation that does nothing to create braking, just puts the wheel closer to the "brake fade" threshold.

I have not yet purchased my disc brake conversion components. That will be a spring project once I don't have to crawl around in snow and -20C temperatures.

I did see on Amazon.ca that they had a Dexter, electric over hydraulic disc brake actuator for sale. In advance of the project I might pull the trigger on that piece. I think I have made a decision to buy Dexter parts. I know they will fit, they are made for my axles and most importantly they will be around in the future to sell me parts should I need them. Getting parts out the US and returning them for warranty is a huge pain as us Canucks know all too well.
I'll have to differ on this!
If your controller is set at 10, on mine that was max & you can't lock up the brakes except on gravel they need adjusted, repaired or replaced.
My GMC was set at 6 & could feel the rv tug slightly during normal stop/go & sufficiently stop in hard braking situations, manually could lock them up.
With the disc I set the controller at 4 or 5 & could feel the rv stopping the truck, huge improvement over the drums.
__________________
Full-timed 10+ years
Sold '13 Redwood FB
Traded '13 GMC Denali DRW D/A
Replacement undetermined
travelin texans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2021, 12:41 PM   #68
bobbecky
Senior Member
 
bobbecky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Box Elder
Posts: 2,898
That's the reason people are upgrading brakes to discs. The drums will not lock up on the larger trailers, no matter how high the controllers are set and the brakes are in perfect condition and adjusted correctly. The drums just do not have the power that discs have. Even the aftermarket controller manufacturers say in their setup instructions that the heavier trailers will not lock up the wheels when doing the initial adjustments. I spent way more time than should have been necessary working on our drum brakes, between maintaining them and even replacing them due to failed components that should not have failed, and finally, after the last failed assembly, I had our rig upgraded to discs, which I should have had done years ago. Now the rig will stop when needed, and the stress level is way down when it comes to having to stop in a hurry.
__________________
Bob & Becky
2012 3402 Montana
2012 Chevy 2500HD D/A CC
bobbecky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2021, 09:32 AM   #69
cenders
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Calgary
Posts: 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by EMTPRescue View Post
I invite everyone questioning their braking systems to actually research how the RV Drum brake system works. In my mind it is a horrible system. Relying on a magnet to drag along a flat service (the brake drum) and through that dragging resistance, then moving a series of sliding parts to push the brake shoes against the brake drum seems to me to be just plain stupid.
I concur! I think this system is horrible. It's made me become a much more patient and tolerant driver when towing now than I was when I pulled a 4000lb trailer.
cenders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2021, 09:35 AM   #70
cenders
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Calgary
Posts: 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by travelin texans View Post
I'll have to differ on this!
If your controller is set at 10, on mine that was max & you can't lock up the brakes except on gravel they need adjusted, repaired or replaced.
My GMC was set at 6 & could feel the rv tug slightly during normal stop/go & sufficiently stop in hard braking situations, manually could lock them up.
With the disc I set the controller at 4 or 5 & could feel the rv stopping the truck, huge improvement over the drums.
How heavy was that trailer? I'm pulling a 14,000lb Fuzion (empty) and I can't get it to lock up. There is just too much weight per tire. Locking up is a bad thing anyway, so hopefully, I'm just before the lockup point for maximum braking efficiency. I definitely feel the trailer slowing the truck down if I manually engage them fully.

And I drive the mountain pass from Calgary to the Okanagan every year, no scary moments thankfully.
cenders is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by the Keystone RV Company or any of its affiliates in any way. Keystone RV® is a registered trademark of the Keystone RV Company.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 01:26 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.