Electrical problem on non-GFI Circuit.

RetrieverFever · 04-23-2019, 04:07 PM

My 1.5 Year old Cougar 327RES just came home from the Dealer. Where it has been for the past 4 months having an Awning motor replaced under Extended Service. We checked out the repairs in the parking lot running 12vdc power from my tow vehicle. The trailer was not plugged in to shore power at the time. Maybe but it's a low percentage we would have found this problem.

As soon as we got home we started cleaning out the funk and dust getting ready to start the camping season. When plugged in the vaccum cleaner no ac power. The 15 amp breaker labeled 'RECEPT' is tripped. The first time you reset the breaker it pops again. The second time you reset the breaker it trips the main 50amp and the 15 amp label RECEPT.

When we picked up the trailer the tv in the bedroom was off the wall and on the bed. So that's where I went first. Confirmed no power on the ceiling where the TV plugs in. Also No power on any recepticals on that awning side of the trailer. That includes the outlet in the book shelf next to the door. The two outlets in the Living Room Slide, and no power in the outlets at the rear end Entertainment center.

The GFCI in the Master bath is working as expected. Any of the outlets labeled protected by GFI are also working. These are the two in the kitchen area. Also the two on the outside of the trailer are working and the outlet in the basement is working.

Everything else on the AC system is working. AC, Microwave, Battery charger, Furnace, yada yada.

What to do? Other than running extension cords. We really love camping in our 5th wheel, but getting service is a nightmare.

Does anyone know how the string of pearls that is the recept electrical circuit on the awning side of a 327RES is tied together. It's my assumption that the line between two outlets was damaged. But how to find out where, and then how to repair the damage. Is it in the ceiling or in the wall? The dealer is only a couple hundred miles away, but seems unable to shoot straight.

Thanks for the replies. Maybe someday I'll be able to return the favor.
Mark
Lost in the evergreens of Washington State.

**sourdough** · 04-23-2019, 04:28 PM

Did they do more than replace the awning motor? Why was the TV on the bed? I'm wondering what they would have been doing with the AC when replacing the motor.

I would look for any signs of "work" being done anywhere possible to see if it would give you some hint. Is there just one "recept" breaker that is killing all the outlets? If so, if nothing is plugged into any of them to throw it, I would guess you would have to start pulling them off the wall to see what's what. Not know how they are daisy chained you could just pull one (start at what you would think would be the start of the daisy chain based on breaker location), separate the leads, turn the breaker on and see if it fails and try to run it that way. To me, if you are handy with a VOM, pull the breaker and read the wires for shorts/grounds. You should read one or the other if it's throwing the breaker (an open won't). You can then start isolating the plugs looking for the fault you saw. They had your trailer long enough that they could have done most anything. Good luck.

Oh, welcome to the forum!

Canonman · 04-23-2019, 04:56 PM

Danny's on the right track for sure. I'm betting there is a "dead short" in that circuit since the breaker immediately fails. Let us know how comfortable you are with troubleshooting and we can help walk you through it. If this is something you're not completely comfortable with it might mean a trip back to the dealer.
Personally, I don't believe in coincidences. Think about where the dealer did the work on the awning. Do a visual inspection of the outlets around the work area. The awning motor is 12v.so that's not likely the issue. But, they may have used the trailer outlets when doing their repairs. Odd chance they may have put a screw through the 110v wiring remounting the awing or something to do with the repair. Outlet supplying the bedroom tv would be a likely suspect for sure. Keep us posted!

Pull Toy · 04-24-2019, 03:00 AM

The very first thing I would do is notify the dealer ASAP, just in case it has to go back.

As far as the TV goes, some dealers take them out for safekeeping in case of a lot break in. Our local dealer has a dedicated cage in the parts room, and no TVs in any camper on the lot. I'd be curious why it was left on the bed though.

Good Luck,

RetrieverFever · 04-25-2019, 02:03 PM

When I first opened the bed room slide I found a half dozen round head screws with white paint on the floor. Later I noticed the black screws holding the black box covers on the ceiling had been replaced with white screws.

Also noticed the center cover, the one with the cable loop was in the wrong position. It was screwed so that a 1/4” gap was visible in the ceiling. So I know the techs/monkeys were messing around at the outlet the TV plugs into.

Last thing
I also found 5 of the white screws in the kitchen on the floor next to the electrical panel. Maybe a coincident Maybe something dropped when the crew bent down to see which if they tripped a breaker.

My Sherlock Holmes sleuthing is just between you, me and the internet.

I think there is a hard short in the ac wiring on the awning side of the 5 th wheel. Even if I knew where the shiort was I have no idea how to get access into the side wall or ceiling of the trailer.

If my work did this we would disconnect all the troublesome outlets to find which segment had the short but then what.

Regards

Ps the cougar is going back to the dealer what next.

**sourdough** · 04-25-2019, 03:29 PM

It definitely sounds like they were in a lot of places they didn't need to be. I don't believe in coincidences like yours. Bending over and "accidentally" dropping screws in a work area? Screws changed out from one color head to another? Nope, the "monkeys" IMO were monkeying around in places where they shouldn't have been because they had no idea what they were doing. As far as thinking they put a dead short or ground between outlets in a cable run? I highly doubt it. I suspect they were in some outlet, for some reason, and put it back together either shorted or grounded by shoving everything in, cinching it down and never even thinking about checking their work. I truly doubt that they had any idea of ground vs neutral vs hot - after all they were supposed to be working on a DC component...right??

Sounds like me just going to pick up my trailer. Supposed to clean and treat the roof then a state inspection. Got there, trailer looked like its nose was stuck in the ground when they brought it around for pickup. Backed up to hook up and.....dead battery (new Interstates). Hmmm, went back and told service advisor they had let my batteries drain. Went back out and hooked up the truck...."click" - the brake magnets all kicked in. Looked down and the break away switch had been pulled....and was pulled! They had been pulling the trailer (I assume) from bay to bay or ?? with the thing out and the brakes locked??? Anyway, I'm in the process of getting a resolution (new batteries and tires) for their incompetence. I'm afraid you may be in the same boat but hope not. Good luck.

RetrieverFever · 04-27-2019, 01:01 PM

I’m back at the dealer for round 4. I’ll update when something happens.

Canonman · 04-27-2019, 02:10 PM

Probably doesn't need to be said, but I'd start with the service manager. Then, while he and the techs are scratching their heads I'd see if I could speak with the GM. All pleasant and professional, but just to let the boss know what's going on and that you expect a professional job done or he'll be hearing about it.

Snoking · 04-27-2019, 03:42 PM

Did they remove the awning and reinstall it? Sounds like a screw was installed threw a AC wire run somewhere. Also sounds like they tried to find it and gave up trouble shooting the issue. A really good low ohm multimeter is a big help. Remove all the face plates of the effected outlets and look for one the only has wires coming to it. That would be the far end of the circuit. Lift the hot, gound and neutral for the effected circuit breaker. Put the meter on it's lowest scale and measure for the short circuit at each end of the run. It can be either hot to neutral or hot to ground or both.

Example if you zero the meter and read say .3 ohms at the far end and .6 ohms at the near end you know the short is about 2/3's of the distance to the far end. Lift the hot on outlets one at a time while still checking your ohm reads. You should be able to zero in on the short.

Remember to not touch the meter leads or wires directly with your un-insulated fingers, or your bodies resistance will effect the readings.

This meter with read 99.99 ohms.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07JJ9MR3L...7-6b060766031a

My meter only reads to 1/10 of an ohm. However I did a little bench test to show a short in a test extension cord. A meter that reads 1/100 of an ohm like the one link above would work much better.

Years ago at NCR my brother and I found a short in a big spool of wire for grocery store POS terminals with this method. A few years later I found a short in the banks CATV cable run, that we ran data on, from the network room to the vertical cable riser. Zeroed in on the network end with this method and found that a tech during the night working under the floor had stepped on the CATV cable and a tack was laying under the cable and he "pinned" it with the tack without his knowledge.

Again you need a ohm meter with a low scale. We had expensive Fluke meters in both cases.

If nothing else, print this out and take it to the dealer.

BTW we summer now at Lake Connor Park in Lake Stevens.

Chris

Logan X · 04-27-2019, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snoking

Did they remove the awning and reinstall it? Sounds like a screw was installed threw a AC wire run somewhere. Also sounds like they tried to find it and gave up trouble shooting the issue. A really good low ohm multimeter is a big help. Remove all the face plates of the effected outlets and look for one the only has wires coming to it. That would be the far end of the circuit. Lift the hot, gound and neutral for the effected circuit breaker. Put the meter on it's lowest scale and measure for the short circuit at each end of the run. It can be either hot to neutral or hot to ground or both.

Example if you zero the meter and read say .3 ohms at the far end and .6 ohms at the near end you know the short is about 2/3's of the distance to the far end. Lift the hot on outlets one at a time while still checking your ohm reads. You should be able to zero in on the short.

Remember to not touch the meter leads or wires directly with your un-insulated fingers, or your bodies resistance will effect the readings.

This meter with read 99.99 ohms.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07JJ9MR3L...7-6b060766031a

My meter only reads to 1/10 of an ohm. However I did a little bench test to show a short in a test extension cord. A meter the reads 1/100 of an ohm like the one link above would work much better.

Years ago at NCR my brother and I found a short in a big spool of wire for grocery store POS terminals with this method. A few years later I found a short in the banks CATV cable run, that we ran data on, from the network room to the vertical cable riser. Zeroed in on the network end with this method and found that a tech during the night working under the floor had stepped on the CATV cable and a tack was laying under the cable and he "pinned" it with the tack without his knowledge.

Again you need a ohm meter with a low scale. We had expensive Fluke meters in both cases.

If nothing else, print this out and take it to the dealer.

BTW we summer now at Lake Connor Park in Lake Stevens.

Chris

Thanks for taking the time to post this. This is good information.

Modifier · 05-02-2019, 08:46 AM

Four months to replace an awning motor? It did not take that long to build your trailer. I think you should be looking for a new dealer. From the other problems that you describe the dealer must have been renting you trailer out during that four months.

LHaven · 05-02-2019, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snoking

A really good low ohm multimeter is a big help.

Example if you zero the meter and read say .3 ohms at the far end and .6 ohms at the near end you know the short is about 2/3's of the distance to the far end.

Again you need a ohm meter with a low scale. We had expensive Fluke meters in both cases.

You certainly can do this with a good, accurate meter, as opposed to, say, the popular Harbor Freight $7 specials, which bounce around at low values like a first-grader waiting for a potty pass.

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