Water softner question

[canula2]

Fairly new RV'er and have questions about water softners. Any advice on types, brand and installation. I have a 2012 Cougar 26SAB and am thinking I want a water softner. Any info is appreciated especially regarding install. You are talking to a female installer here so the more specific the better Also, I am having visions of this thing hanging on the outside of my camper and am not completely comfortable with that idea (I am sure I am being weird and unreasonable about that). I am not a full timer, but recreational user and did manage to get out 14 times last year. Thanks in advance.

[JRTJH]

Camping World has a number or "portable" water softeners that simply connect to the city water inlet of your RV. Essentially, they connect like an inline filter from the city water faucet to the softener and then from the softener to the RV. So, there's no real "installation" necessary, you could construct a box for it to sit in beside the trailer or if you're really "into it" you could install it in the forward bay, next to the "plumbing command center" and just connect your city inlet hose to the softener. When you break camp, leave it all connected and just disconnect the city water hose. When you need to fill the fresh water tank, just use the output from the softener and you'll have soft water in both the self contained and the campground modes.

[ktmracer]

First question I'll ask is how hard is your water???

that helps determine what softener you may need.

Here is my experience:

1) The CW etc. softeners have a pretty substantial capacity and are great if you have very hard water or go through lots of it. Disadvantage is that they aren't the easiest/quickest to recharge, and are more expensive that some alternatives.
2) If your water isn't very hard, or you don't go through lots of it the "waterstick" is a very good solution. We have one and it's been great. It is a regular salt based system, but smaller and only takes about 15 minutes to recharge and maybe 1 gallon of water. It can be stored in any position and is easy hook up. Disadvantage is capacity. About 1/2 that of the more expensive units, but costs about 1/2 as much. Ours lasted almost a week with 4 adults in a RV park taking showers etc. in southern Utah with pretty hard water. It's capacity is 1500 grains, again not near as much as the bigger units. Waterstick is also available with a iron control for places with some iron content as well. That is the unit I have. Cost w/o iron control is about $140. It will go a month or so with softer water, but then your results will vary. Since you want something easy to install, and probably to recharge, the waterstick is about as easy as it gets. screw onto the supply hose and your done. to recharge, fill with 2 quarts of water saturated with table salt, let set 15 minutes, drain, flush for 15 seconds or so and your set to go.

My advice, look at the CW units and the waterstick and see which looks best for your needs. We takes ours with us all the time.

Waterstick: http://www.watersticks.com/p.htmhttp://www.watersticks.com/p.htm

[geo]

Ktmracer, let me add one more question - Canula2, are you looking for a solution for hard (calcium and magnesium ion-filled) water or drinking water purification? In other words, are you trying to find a solution to remedy the soap not "sudsing" and cleaning, shampoo not foaming, and clothes not coming clean from the washer? Or are you faced with chemicals and unwanted minerals in the water? If it's the latter, you might want a Reverse Osmosis unit. If it's the former, then ktmracer gave some very good suggestions.

You can get a hand held tester from HD or Amazon that tests "total dissolved solids" in your water. It will give you a good idea of you water hardness, etc. I use one to monitor my reverse osmosis drinking water unit. These hand held testers are not that expensive and last forever, but the batteries will need to be changed. I think I paid about $12 for mine.
Ron

[travelbugger]

I just bought and installed with the help of a guy friend the flow-pur water softener. I got it for $200 from rvupgradestore.com plus $15 dollar shipping. You also need to purchase (2) 4 foot water line hoses you can get through an rv store.
http://www.rvupgradestore.com/Portab...-p/88-2130.htm

My water was extremely hard. I didn't know how hard it was until the softener came as there were hardness test strips that came with it. I installed it in a Keyston Alpine 3200Rl behind the waterworks station. I am in OK, and it gets below freezing here at times in the winter. I knew the water was hard (as it is in most places) as my water heater had a lot of build up in the anode-rod hole in the water heater and the water hose connections. I bought this one as it processes up tp 10,000 gallons? or grains? of water before needing a recharge using regular table salt. I figure that reducing how often i need to recharge is better for me. My water softened from 25 grains per gallon to 1.5-3 grains per gallon. This is supposed to extend the life of your water heater by double. (4-7 years is average life span to now 8 - 14 years) This is much cheaper than spending $1200 to replace the water heater+ the headache.

I don't know the difference between the reverse osmosis and the softener. Others may be more knowledgable, but I thought I'd share my experience.
I also had to buy some converters for the hose, (male-female), and used tephlon tape to minimize leaks. If that doesnt work, there is a liquid pipe thread compund that is not permanent which we will be putting on soon as I have a slow drip still. Anyways, good luck- hope this helped.

[travelbugger]

..I could take a picture of mine and send it to you if you would like.

Here is a link for reverse osmosis I just found
http://www.rvwaterfilterstore.com/ABRO.htm

And here is one about water softeners
http://www.rvwaterfilterstore.com/ABSofteners.htm

I am wondering if I should have gotten the reverse osmosis. It might do everything, but I am not sure how oftern one would need to replace filters and the cost of that. Might be more effort or money than I care to apply.

*Just thought I'd add that if you are not getting out much, the waterstick as before recommended might be easier for you as your camper will be disconnected and on the go quite a bit. I am in it full-time right now, after this may it will only be for part time use and I will have to dump the water softener and sanitize it when the camper will be in storage.

[kjansen]

Reverse osmosis takes everything out of the water, but is a very slow process. Hours to get a few gallons. You are better off with the softener. We do use RO water in the house and fill a couple of 6 gal jugs for drinking, but I fill our fresh water tank with soft water out of the house before we go on a trip.

[travelbugger]

I'm glad to know that- Thanks kjansen!

[geo]

Travelbugger -

There are instances where "whole house" or "whole RV" RO systems would be recommended. Luckily, these days, they are few and far between. There is more call for either RO or softener. If all you are worried about is western Oklahoma hard water and "no sudsing", then a softener will do wonders. The one thing that you should be aware of is if you are on a low sodium diet. In the softening process, the sodium ion is exchanged with the calcium or magnesium ion that causes the water to be "hard". The natural fluoride in the water should not be affected. My younger years were spent between Hennessy and Alva, and I have the hard teeth to prove it!

If you have concerns about the mineral, chemical, and pollutant content of the water, when external exposure is not a problem, then an RO unit for drinking water is what you need. Like around Norman, there is a higher than normal Chromium-6 content in the water. Or at Chaco Canyon, NM, the minerals will "set your body in motion". That is when you want a drinking water RO. The drinking water RO I got from RV Water Filters is capable of 50 gallons a day. With a three gallon reserve tank, we have no hydration problem even at Zabrinski Point. Look in the Modifications section and you will see my posts about installing my RO in the Alpine. Also, Sodium Carbonate is a good fix for "temporary" hard water. I have a post out on the Forum if you search on "Sodium Carbonate". Commercially you buy it as Calgon or A&H Washing Soda. If you use it to soften drinking water, you must get food grade!

Not trying to stir anything up here, but basically all the water sources in just about all of North America has some kind of pollution whether natural or more likely man-made. Some 80+ years of leaking steel gas station tanks to feed lots and all sources in between. Municipal treated water usually removes much of the pollutants. But even ground water at depth had a surface source, and probably a pollution source too. (Fracing does not pollute unless the operator has other bad problems like poor cement or weak casing. And there's no "k"!). In west Texas and Oklahoma, feed lots are a major polluter.

Ron

[travelbugger]

Hello Geo,
I am very impressed by your chemical knowledge of the RO's vs. water softeners, but also of the groundwater, pollution, and waste water issues. I am an Environmental Scientist about to graduate from OSU, so I am fully aware of what you speak on. I too consider water pollutants. But anyways, it is a pleasure to hear from you.

Pollutants is the main reason I dont drink the water from the tap here. I do however use it to brush my teeth, shower and make my coffee as I am only a student and can only do what I can. But the reason I put a softener in is due to the mineral deposits forming inside of my water heater and water hose connections. The last time I drained my water heater to take it to the dealer, I was horrified by how much had built up since February when my fifth wheel was brand new. That, and I think the hard water was ruining my hair.

I have read that for people on a low sodium diet, to substitute using NaCl for the recharge and instead use the Na2Co3. I have wondered however what the resin beads are made of that come in the softener. Do you happen to know? The instructions say to use the NaCl to recharge when the resins need to be cleaned out. I am not on a low sodium diet, but I think about these things.
Thanks for your input Ron.

Btw- I'm up in the Stillwater area. water hardness was at 25 grains before softening

[geo]

Travelbugger -

We can PM about OSU. I went to the other university in geophysics, geology, and math - PM me. (My step-grandfather ran the OAMC/OSU dairy barn that "used to be out of town" for some 40 years.) Are you Environmental Geology? Yes, please PM me, we need to correspond offline about licensing.

You do not use Na2CO3 in the softener - use it directly in the water. The calcium and magnesium will no longer be part of the solution - they will be in the micro-precipitant. Honestly, Stillwater's water is not that hard. You need to drive out Hwy 51 to Seiling! You can use a glass of water to drive a nail! If you have a water softener, you MUST use salt/halite to recharge the softener! And, one of the problems is the sodium is also corrosive in the hot water heater! Talk to your profs. You will need to keep a close eye on your anode and flush the HW tank of precipitate. Oh, run a weak sodium carbonate solution through your coffee maker to clean out the scale.

Note: Go to Wally World and look for an Arm & Hammer Washing Soda blue box. Yes, modern detergent does contain sodium carbonate, but it doesn't contain enough for your area and the area west to Clovis. For your laundry at the laundromat, you need to add about a half cup of Washing Soda to the detergent. As far as your hair, it's not the water - you aren't getting the shampoo out of it! It's hard water, leaves rings in tub, spots on the glasses, etc. Either more rinsing or softer water! We used to use a pitcher of water with a little washing soda in it to do a final rinse of the hair.

Better sign off now. But please do Private Message me. Enviromental doesn't pay as much as Petroleum, but there are opportunities out there.

Regards,

Ron

[ktmracer]

Originally Posted by travelbugger

Hello Geo,
I am very impressed by your chemical knowledge of the RO's vs. water softeners, but also of the groundwater, pollution, and waste water issues. I am an Environmental Scientist about to graduate from OSU, so I am fully aware of what you speak on. I too consider water pollutants. But anyways, it is a pleasure to hear from you.

Pollutants is the main reason I dont drink the water from the tap here. I do however use it to brush my teeth, shower and make my coffee as I am only a student and can only do what I can. But the reason I put a softener in is due to the mineral deposits forming inside of my water heater and water hose connections. The last time I drained my water heater to take it to the dealer, I was horrified by how much had built up since February when my fifth wheel was brand new. That, and I think the hard water was ruining my hair.

I have read that for people on a low sodium diet, to substitute using NaCl for the recharge and instead use the Na2Co3. I have wondered however what the resin beads are made of that come in the softener. Do you happen to know? The instructions say to use the NaCl to recharge when the resins need to be cleaned out. I am not on a low sodium diet, but I think about these things.
Thanks for your input Ron.

Btw- I'm up in the Stillwater area. water hardness was at 25 grains before softening

25 grains, pretty hard water, almost like chewing nails!! For those who want/need a low sodium diet, most softeners can substitute potasium chloride for the Sodium Chloride ( table Salt) Haven't heard of using Na2Co3.

[travelbugger]

Ktmracer:
Good catch- I meant KCL (potassium chloride) instead ofs Na2Co3 (sodium carbonate) for low-sodium users. Sorry about the boo-boo. I should have double checked.