Leaving Keystone for Jayco

[Falcon67]

After having warranty issues with structure on our 2021 220RD Springdale, we have decided to trade it. When we first turned the warranty items in to Keystone via the servicing dealer, the claim was denied. After complaining - they decided to honor the warranty. So they did step up and cover the issues - after some phone calls and reading their warranty back to them. Built quality issues had been bugging us for a while and this was pretty much the final straw. Items such as leaking fresh tank outlet (plastic failed around nib), screw anchors for blinds and guide strings in sheetrock with no sheetrock anchors (repaired at the house, blinds falling off the wall while camping not cool), finding lots of sawdust and misc debris in the trailer after a pull and a few other things that skip my mind just now. The warranty issues were skin separation at the top of the side walls both left and right, plus roof separation, cracks in the sealer and such. Trailer purchased new Sept 2021, seemed a bit early for major problems. Servicing dealer had to strip both sides up to the roof to properly fix. I have not looked at the roof repair as we just got it back and its 18F outside - will post repair pics if it'll lighten up. Otherwise, we pick up the new Jaycon on Saturday weather permitting. Lots of ice here this week.

Roof - major stuff, not all the separated seams.



Skin separation - left side, right side same except awning was keeping the skin pinned to the frame. It appeared there were no staples or anything else holding this area to the internal wall frame.

[chuckster57]

I can understand, you’re welcome to stick around since pretty much all RVs use the same appliances and have common issues.

[NH_Bulldog]

Interesting since I had the exact opposite experience, except it was with Jayco, and that drove me to Keystone.

I hope it works out for you, but don’t be bitter; I have learned that every brand has it’s ups and downs. These are all built by the same people in the same area using the same materials and appliances. Also, both Jayco and Keystone have the same parent company; Thor Industries. Really whether you have a bad experience comes down to the law of averages and luck of the draw. I am not saying it is acceptable in any way.

However, switching brands under the same umbrella is like taking money out of your left pocket and putting it in your right pocket…..six of one half a dozen of the other, they feel no pain. Moving to a Grand Design or a different manufacturer would have been more of a statement.

[Balvar24]

That sealant looks pretty rough for a 2021 model. Does everyone else's look like that?

[wegone]

Sounds pretty much like my story except it was the axles.....

And I could never get that out of my mind after having been pulled over by passing motorist to warn me that my trailer had some serious issues as they followed behind me.

It was finally fixed but lost months awaiting the fix after fighting with CW, the adjusters, Keystone, etc.

Still had over 1k of out-of-pocket expenses because of their mistake.

But eventually it turned out to be a good thing because we bought a trailer that fit our needs better, and the nagging and wondering if it was really fixed right, gone

BTW, the guys still here accept me into the group even tho my trailer is way better than theirs now

[wiredgeorge]

Originally Posted by Island Eddie

Sounds pretty much like my story except it was the axles.....

And I could never get that out of my mind after having been pulled over by passing motorist to warn me that my trailer had some serious issues as they followed behind me.

It was finally fixed but lost months awaiting the fix after fighting with CW, the adjusters, Keystone, etc.

Still had over 1k of out-of-pocket expenses because of their mistake.

But eventually it turned out to be a good thing because we bought a trailer that fit our needs better, and the nagging and wondering if it was really fixed right, gone

BTW, the guys still here accept me into the group even tho my trailer is way better than theirs now

Let's see... who owns Keystone RV? Thor... who owns Cruiser RV? Thor... yeah I bet all their high quality Amish craftsmen headed over to Cruiser RV and do the great work there while Keystone is left with the.... well leftovers?

[Falcon67]

I'm aware of the corporate overlords. The 212 has obvious better build quality than the 220. And the dealer service stated plainly they have better luck with the Jayco trailers than Keystone and some others. I was told back channel that another Keystone owner is going through the same "claim denied, oh wait - maybe we will fix it" issues.

>BTW: Was the roof sealant ever touched up or serviced? On a 2 year old >trailer, that should have happened several times.

This seems odd to me. Yes, I have learned that for membrane roofs I'd better check the roof and sealant periodically. Our 2016 Continental Cargo has zero roof issues, no sealant cracks, etc. I'm not sure what that gray sealer up there is, but it's some tough stuff. The Dycor on the membrane roofs seems to be way less robust.
Something else I forgot - after all this time, and lots of "tricks" to get the OSB outgassing out of the Keystone - it still smells. My 960 sq/ft shop is fully OSB on the inside and never had that issue with the shop. It's bad enough that without air moving we get headaches at night.

I'm not sure the mfg date, but we bought the 220 9/21 and filed the warranty claim 11/22 - that's ain't a lot of time IMHO.

>I hope it works out for you, but don’t be bitter; I have learned that every >brand has it’s ups and downs.

This is certainly true. To be fair, the $65K 2022 F-350 had a couple of "build quality' issues from Ford. I work with high end network equipment and yep - plenty of build quality issues there too. I spent 20 years in manufacturing, a large part of that in QA/QC - things go wrong in spite of best efforts. It's how you respond to those issues that makes the difference.

I'm not planning to sign off - these goobers use a lot of the same parts and lessons learned can be shared to help others. That's the great thing about these forums.

Fun note - I just ordered two anode rods for the water heater in the 220, so now I have spares LOL. Looks like the same exact water heater was installed in the Jayco.

Also, the dealer made us a decent offer for the trade, basically leaving us dead even on the trade vs balance on the note. Not ideal, but better than some trades we've made. And their service is top notch, so it's not a bad thing all around.

I'll also bet the Jayco pulls easier - that 220 is like pulling a giant sheet of plywood down the road.

[wegone]

Originally Posted by wiredgeorge

Let's see... who owns Keystone RV? Thor... who owns Cruiser RV? Thor... yeah I bet all their high quality Amish craftsmen headed over to Cruiser RV and do the great work there while Keystone is left with the.... well leftovers?

Hahahaha.....you bet the wrong teams yesterday?

Like I said it gave me a good opportunity to find a better fit and address some concerns as well from what I had learned.
Block insulation for me was a plus, as a higher barrel roof, bigger frame, getting away from spread axles, Azdel panels and real tongue and grove plywood floors, not to mention a better floor plan for us, etc....

Now was it assembled better; we'll see. Only got two trips in last year because we bought it late in the year.
First trip is next month, and then every month until November, about 6k total milage I'm guessing.

Check back

[Mikendebbie]

We had a 2011 Jayco 27’ - a long time ago now…and corp ownership was different back then. But it was a nice solid stick and tin travel trailer. Everything just worked. I wanted to mount a small TV in the bedroom. Called factory service to ask what the stud spacing was - and they emailed me the framing “blueprints” for all four walls! Can you imagine that today? My 1996 Alpenlite 30’ fifth wheel had a wiring diagram in the owners manual! What a concept!

Enjoy your new Jayco and hang around here to give updates on your experience.

[wiredgeorge]

Let's see.... Thor owns Keystone RV. Thor owns Jayco. Thor owns most of the larger volume brands except Forest River. Jumping to a Jayco may not yield the results you hope for. Good luck.

BTW: Was the roof sealant ever touched up or serviced? On a 2 year old trailer, that should have happened several times.

[pawpaw]

Originally Posted by wiredgeorge

Let's see.... Thor owns Keystone RV. Thor owns Jayco. Thor owns most of the larger volume brands except Forest River. Jumping to a Jayco may not yield the results you hope for. Good luck.

BTW: Was the roof sealant ever touched up or serviced? On a 2 year old trailer, that should have happened several times.

Grand Design was scooped up by Winnebago a few years ago.

[Falcon67]

Oh, it'll get used quick. Our daughter/grandkids live in Albuquerque. The 220 has made several trips - 480 miles one way - and had a couple of multi day and a 2 week stay in the street in front of the house. Will be happy to share any comparisons. And for sure - we're both hoping we made the right call. We'll find out quick enough!

[sourdough]

Good luck and I hope you have good luck with the Jayco. Owned one and not again. Thought about it and spoke to the owner of the dealership - under very pointed questioning he owned up that Jayco had as many issues as any other brand - corroborated by other dealers. The kicker was the dealer (owner), the one I would use, said I should understand that they had a typical waiting period for repairs of 3 mo. I have a far better relationship with my Keystone dealer and wouldn't subject myself to that.

[WDPatterson]

Originally Posted by wiredgeorge

Let's see.... Thor owns Keystone RV. Thor owns Jayco. Thor owns most of the larger volume brands except Forest River. Jumping to a Jayco may not yield the results you hope for. Good luck.

BTW: Was the roof sealant ever touched up or serviced? On a 2 year old trailer, that should have happened several times.

On top of that, Thor Industries is owned by Brookshire Hathaway, which is owned by Warren Buffett. It's a small world.

[NH_Bulldog]

Originally Posted by WDPatterson

On top of that, Thor Industries is owned by Brookshire Hathaway, which is owned by Warren Buffett. It's a small world.

Please stick to the facts and do not distribute fake news:

Berkshire Hathaway owns Forrest River and the brands under them. Thor is a competitor to Forrest River, and as such neither Thor nor any of their brands are owned by Forrest River or Warren Buffett or Berkshire Hathaway.

In fact, Thor is a publicly owned company and is traded on the NYSE as THO.

[WDPatterson]

Originally Posted by NH_Bulldog

Please stick to the facts and do not distribute fake news:

Berkshire Hathaway owns Forrest River and the brands under them. Thor is a competitor to Forrest River, and as such neither Thor nor any of their brands are owned by Forrest River or Warren Buffett or Berkshire Hathaway.

In fact, Thor is a publicly owned company and is traded on the NYSE as THO.

Perhaps, I stand corrected. On the other hand, back in 2014, Warren Buffett owned a majority of Thor Industries through Berkshire Hathaway.

Since then, here is what has happened:
In July 2016, Thor acquired Jayco Inc. for $576 million. Jayco, based in Middlebury, Indiana, had been the largest privately owned RV maker in the world prior to the sale. Jayco's subsidiares (including Starcraft RV, Highland Ridge, and Entegra Coach) also came under the Thor umbrella.[40] In September 2018, it was announced that Thor had agreed to purchase Hymer, a German manufacturer of RVs, in a deal worth $2.45 billion in the largest acquisition in the company's history. Hymer is the largest RV manufacturer in Europe. As a result of the deal, Thor Industries became the largest RV manufacturer in the world.[41] The sale was officially finalized in February 2019.[42]

In December 2020, the company acquired the manufacturer of luxury recreational vehicles Tiffin Motorhomes for $300 Mln.[43]

It really doesn't matter who owns who, but the kind of Craftsman they hire. As it stands, in the last decade, quality has suffered greatly. It's best to go over a new RV with a fine tooth comb while it's still in the dealer parking lot. And, it's also best to get regular service intervals in the first two years. Take advantage of your warranty, and don't let them get away with anything.

[RET.LEO]

I was originally looking at Grand Designs but did a couple of years of research (waiting for wife to retire) I quickly learned they have a laminate floor with luan as a substrate PLUS add the whole fictitious R-40 roof insulation which is physically impossible.....their roofs aren't 12 inches deep.
I am now considering a Winnebago Micro Minnie.....better grade materials, Azdel inside and out, 5/8 inch tongue and groove floors, tank heaters from the factory, realistic insulation claims, BAL huckbolt frames, torsion axles. Same price as Grand Design (if not lower)
Jayco would be a close 2nd for build quality and warranty.

[peanut]

Originally Posted by WDPatterson

On top of that, Thor Industries is owned by Brookshire Hathaway, which is owned by Warren Buffett. It's a small world.

I couldn't find any corroboration for that but if it is true it muddies the water more. Berkshire Hathaway also owns Forest River. That would mean that there is really only one company owning/controlling almost all RV mfg. Probably well over 90%.

[JRTJH]

Without a doubt, most RV manufacturers are owned by "larger conglomerates". Who owns those "conglomerates" is really irrelevant....

What is relevant is this:

Nearly 100% of trailers are built in the same area, by the same worker populatioin, using the same chassis, axles, appliances, adhesives, staples, screws, furniture, carpet, windows, mattresses, tires, propane bottles, awnings, slide mechanisms and dang near every other component. They are sold by the same dealerships as the "competition", serviced by the same technicians at the dealership, towed by the same type vehicles, parked in the same storage areas and used in the same campgrounds.....

What's different??? The script used by the CS phone rep in the warranty office. At Keystone, the CS rep tells you, Please take your trailer to your dealer, they will contact us and we'll review your warranty claim"... At GD, the phone rep tells you, "I've approved your warranty repair, pending dealer confirmation, so please take your trailer to the dealer and they will repair the problem".... It's pretty much all perspective in what the customer "heard them say"....

The reality: GD charges around $5K more for a similar trailer when compared to Keystone. Facts are, around 10% of people have a significant issue with their trailer, the rest never take it back to the dealer for any major repairs. So, GD "pockets that $5K on 90% of their sales" while Keystone buyers "keep that $5K and bitch about the lack of warranty support".....

While the above "dissertation" is not completely accurate in exact percentages, dollars or words used by the warranty divisions, it's close enough to what happens to draw a comparative parallel in "customer perception".... GD buyers like the "personal support and agreeable attitude they get about fixing their trailer".... Keystone buyers don't like the "impersonal, we don't care about you attitude they perceive that drives the Keystone warranty department's lack of caring about their customers"....

Now, when one looks at that $5K expense, some buyers can negotiate it away by diligent bargaining while some buyers pay $8K to make up for what the diligent buyer "bilked from the dealer"....

Bottom line, for the most part, the trailers are the same, built by the same people to the same standards with the same equipment, sold and serviced by the same dealers and service technicians in the same service bays....

This is, IMHO, not a situation where you get a better product (after all, a Lippert chassis with Dexter axles and a Suburban furnace aren't GD or Keystone quality) as much as it is that you get a better perceived outcome, usually at a higher cost.

[dutchmensport]

Sorry to hear about your Springdale problems. We had a Springdale for 8 years and it was the completely trouble free the entire time. I guess they don't make them like they use to.

I hope you stick around on these forums. At least check in from time to time. You can always contribute your experiences. We all gain from each other you know.

I realized (just today), that I still have an active user ID and password on Outbackers.com forum. I joined that forum in 2013, right after we purchased our Keystone Outback (which was right after the Springdale). I had only 6 posts on that forum site in all these years as I primarily used a different forum and also the Keystone forum. Over time I abandoned the "other" one as too many were posting condescending and critical and demeaning posts. I left that one and picked up using Keystone and eventually the Montana forum. So, I snooped around the Outback forum for a while and found out, pretty much EVERYTHING that is addressed with issues on the Keystone and Montana forum are also the same issues on the Outback forum. It seems everyone is having issues .... especially with newer models of every brand.

BUT! In order to still keep YOU in the "family" (sort of say) ... don't forget that RV Life also sponsors the Jayco forum. You can log in there with the same user id and password you use here. I do occasionally go over to the Jayco forum and read, I've never signed in there through.

So.... meanwhile ... you can still keep it in the family: Click here. I think you'll need to register, but the user ID and password can stay the same.

And you might also check out the RV forum (also sponsored by RV Life). I do use that one a lot. Its more general, regarding everything RV, but it's got lots of activity there. Click here. Use your same User ID and password too. Register, and have fun.