slide out issues

[sourdough]

^^^^In addition to the above;

While I have had issues with darco, don't think it's the best material for the job and have spent quite a bit of money trying to find a way to repair it, I also see the situation from the other side.

Darco "works" for its purpose more or less. Some folks have never had one issue with it, others have nothing but trouble. This is entirely my thought but judging from the 10s of thousands of RVs that are sold with darco under the slides and the numbers of complaints I see and read about the overall failure of the darco material is probably pretty low. In that event I understand a manufacturer using it. It wouldn't make sense to try to put better (more expensive) products into an RV that then either priced it out the targeted segment or cut into the required profit margin. Sort of like buying a Kia Rio for 16k and expecting/wanting it to have expensive leather seating....won't happen.

When we bought this trailer one of the things on my must have list was solid bottom slides. As I tried to tried to check as many boxes as I could other, more important boxes kept popping up above the slide bottom requirement. In the end it was something that wasn't going to happen and I knew I could deal with it if it did rear its ugly head (and it did) so went with the darco. It's a trade off and I think one that in the end helps Keystone give any buyer the best bang for the buck IMO.

[JRTJH]

This is just my opinion, but if I ran Keystone and was going to replace DARCO with something more durable, the FIRST place I'd focus in in the wheelwells..... The DARCO failure rate there is significantly greater than the failure rate on slide bottoms.

DARCO there is not only a source of failure for a greater number of owners, it's one of the reasons why Keystone had to build an entire facility, one dedicated to replacing floors in some of their trailer lines....

Their answer so far: Ignore the failing DARCO that's a major source of water intrusion. Instead, just replace the luan that's being damaged with a waterproof material and ignore the source of the water intrusion..... Sort of like the "Dutch boy with his thumb in the dike while the waves are crashing over his head".....

[sourdough]

As an observation on your post;

My last trailer (2014) had a large amount of darco over the tires....big areas. Single layer glued to the floor bottom. I didn't have any water penetration issues before I got rid of it but had intended to cover them. This trailer (2020) has some darco above the tires but not nearly as much. The edges have metal all around the wheel wells leaving about a 6" strip down the middle. That darco has what feels like 3 layers; 1 glued to the floor bottom and a couple more tightly wrapped around it. This is much better than the previous one. Don't know if that improvement is due to an effort to improve by Keystone or because I changed the model/type of trailer.

Despite the improvement I have 4 pieces of uhmw cut to fit into the spaces above each tire. I have not had time (or "taken" it I suppose) to pull the wheels and install them opting instead to do that after we return from FL next year - hoping that doesn't bite me. Bottom line is that in the end the wheel wells need to be protected because at some point that darco WILL get perforated if you travel much. If the darco under the slides is getting torn up then it's going to be just as important because it will get you too.

[Keshka]

John.
I was referring to the 100k toy haulers.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by Keshka

John.
I was referring to the 100k toy haulers.

1/10 of 1 percent in a 100K trailer is $100 (at retail) and probably closer to $25-35 at Keystone's cost to build.... Still significantly less than the cost of a sheet of UHMW

I understand your frustration and get your comment, but the facts don't support the comment.... In an "ideal world" they would build better trailers... but market competition in the RV industry is far from an "ideal world"...

[flybouy]

From reading thousands of posts here and other sites here's my take FWIW. Anytime someone has an issue (let's call it issue A) they will naturally see and remember seeing others with issue A. Sort of like buying a pink truck. Never seen one until you buy it then you see them everywhere. Even though issue A may be a very infrequent issue in the grand scheme of things its a major issue to those that experience it.

So if you cansider "fixing" or kore appropriately preventing issue A, then doing the same with isses B, C,D ....rtc. that $100 K trailer might cost $150 K or $200 K, or ????? Obviously if any manufacturer did this they would price themselves out of buisness in short order. Keystone, like any other buisness gives customers what they want at a price point that keeps them competitive. Thst typically ends up being pretty blue lights inside, some UFO lights on the outside, a antenna/cable system that doesn’t require a thought or pushing a button, or a Bluetooth remote for everything imaginable.

Sometimes those things work and sometimes they are an epic failure but it's what the majority of buyers wanted and items that helped in their purchase decision.

[Gegrad]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

This is just my opinion, but if I ran Keystone and was going to replace DARCO with something more durable, the FIRST place I'd focus in in the wheelwells..... The DARCO failure rate there is significantly greater than the failure rate on slide bottoms.

DARCO there is not only a source of failure for a greater number of owners, it's one of the reasons why Keystone had to build an entire facility, one dedicated to replacing floors in some of their trailer lines....

Their answer so far: Ignore the failing DARCO that's a major source of water intrusion. Instead, just replace the luan that's being damaged with a waterproof material and ignore the source of the water intrusion..... Sort of like the "Dutch boy with his thumb in the dike while the waves are crashing over his head".....

Yep, just got around to installing my HDPE in my wheel wells last Friday. Still need to do the section fore and aft of the two sections directly above the wheels. Considering it only took me a bit over 2.5 hrs to do those four sections, and it was my first go round, those remaining 4 sections should take even less (no wheels to work around/remove, etc).

[markcee]

With regard to wheel well protection, what about using a liquid rubber compound like the Gorilla product or paint on or spray on Flex Seal?

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by markcee

With regard to wheel well protection, what about using a liquid rubber compound like the Flex Seal?

IMO, anything you spray onto DARCO is only as good as the DARCO that keeps it in place. If there is "sagging DARCO" then you'll have "sagging Flex Seal". If the DARCO rips and falls away, you'll have "exposed luan soaking up the water from road spray"....

I'd not rely on the DARCO for any "foundation on which to build" a wheelwell improvement. That is, IMO, building a house on a sand foundation....

If I were going to use a product similar to that, I'd likely remove all the DARCO and have the local Line-X dealer spray the wheelwells. Also, IMO, Flex Seal is not yet a proven enough product to rely on it for long term protection that I'd feel safe enough to invest as an improvement on my "expensive travel trailer"... YMMV

[Mikelff]

Personally, I prefer Chucks fix. IMO I think 1/4 inch is too thick. I will be adding the 1/8 inch UHMW to all my slides as I am beginning to see some wear on the darco, especially my big slide. As the slides are not manufactured by Keystone, they need to have their suppliers quit using it. Thats another topic for later. One other thing I am going to add underneath the UHMW “ski’s” is a bead of Marine silicone all the way around underneath, close to the edge, then another bead along the edges to seal out moisture. There are two types of Marine silicone. The permanent type (usually white in color) and they mean permanent. Or the clear that is sort of removable with some serious elbow grease. This stuff is pretty tough, way tougher than what the RV industry uses, and will definitely seal out moisture. It also acts like a glue and will add additional adhesion of the UHMW. I also use it on the screws and it prevents them from backing out as well as a moisture seal. If you want something that will be permanent, use the white permanent Marine silicone. It stays flexible but you will need a jack hammer to get it off, if you can get it off whatever you used it on to begin with. I have been using the clear Marine silicone where I need to re seal seams as it will last for years longer than the factory junk. Something to consider for this project.

[Brentw]

Folks I just want to reach out and thank those of you who find and document repairs to your rigs.
Some years ago, i had a jerky main slide. RV to shop for replacement of wear bar ( warranty repair then it wasn't...grrr) and addition of rollers.
This month, noticed tear in darco. Cause was a screw backed out of wear bar, now what?
A bit of searching and UHMW strips.
Installed on mine, and did the same to a friend who had repaired his with tape.

Anyway, appreciate the sharing of information. If you ain't handsome, best be handy.

[Jennifer Fuzion 414]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

To put this statement into perspective:

If it costs Keystone $10,000 to build a trailer, then one tenth of one percent of that cost would be $10.

Amazon lists 4"x48" sheets of UHMW 1/8" thick for $32.99. It would take a minimum of 2 sheets to place one on each end of one slide. With two slides, that would be 33x4= $132. https://www.amazon.com/UHMW-Sheet-1-...3526324&sr=8-4 To cover the entire bottom of the slide would be substantially more. How much? Who knows, but for "guessing purposes, let's say $200 per slide for the material at retail. Assuming Keystone can buy UHMW at wholesale at half the retail price, that would be $100, just for the material. Installation costs, tooling costs, time on the assembly line not included, the "cost to Keystone" is significantly more than "one tenth of one percent"....

While I agree with the "sentiment" of the statement, the "reality" of it is not substantiated. The cost of replacing DARCO with UHMW sheeting would assuredly cost Keystone more than $10. How much more is an answer none of us can estimate, given the lack of knowledge about how much Keystone pays for supplies, labor, equipment, time on assembly line for each trailer they produce......

Adding UHMW strips to the slides on a Keystone trailer would not improve the "overall trailer" enough to put it in the "quality range of a superior built competitor" but that $100 to the wholesale cost of a Keystone trailer would assuredly price it over the "intended competition"....

So, to Keystone, the question would likely be: When buyers don't even know how many holding tanks are in the trailer they purchase, how much it weighs or where the water pump is located, is it really going to be a "sales advantage" to increase the cost by installing a more durable product under the slide edges?

So, sure it would be "nice" if Keystone installed a more reliable product under their slides, but in the "grand scheme of marketing recreational vehicles in today's RV buyers", does it matter????? I'd suspect, to Keystone, both engineering and bean counters, the answer is clear.....

NAILED IT!!!!! As someone who works every day in an audit field with said bean counters, you sir NAILED IT!!! Especially the part about most of us wouldn't know the difference in Keystone's opinion. Chevrolet did the same trick when they mounted a a fuel tank outside of the frame rails in a pickup truck in the 70's. They literally had studies done that showed in the end it was cheaper to pay the fire death lawsuits than do it properly. I guarantee you it's a lot cheaper for Keystone to pay for the occasional fix job than do do every unit.

[Jennifer Fuzion 414]

For those considering adding the rollers, here's Bal's guidance and part numbers of how many based on slide length and which to use after measuring your wear bar.

[Vet4jdc]

Originally Posted by Jennifer Fuzion 414

For those considering adding the rollers, here's Bal's guidance and part numbers of how many based on slide length and which to use after measuring your wear bar.

I find it interesting that BAL recommends these and the quantities they say to use while Keystone has ignored their use on so many units.

[sourdough]

That particular document was titled roller installation for a crushed wear bar. It would be much cheaper than pulling the slide box and replacing the wear bar for sure.

When I talked to BAL about using the rollers on a different trailer the engineer I talked to said their design was to use the wear bar and the bottom of the slide...but not with darco. She said they discouraged the use of it with the wear bar but Keystone insisted on it. The rollers, as an add on, augment the wear bar. These add ons bolt to the face of the opening under the slide box and all the factory installed rollers I've seen are screwed to the floor under the slide and give them much more ability to carry a load I suspect.

[Mikelff]

Originally Posted by Jennifer Fuzion 414

NAILED IT!!!!! As someone who works every day in an audit field with said bean counters, you sir NAILED IT!!! Especially the part about most of us wouldn't know the difference in Keystone's opinion. Chevrolet did the same trick when they mounted a a fuel tank outside of the frame rails in a pickup truck in the 70's. They literally had studies done that showed in the end it was cheaper to pay the fire death lawsuits than do it properly. I guarantee you it's a lot cheaper for Keystone to pay for the occasional fix job than do do every unit.

People need to realize that Keystone doesn't make their slide outs. If Darco were to be replaced with another material, it would be the slide out manufacturers of the slide outs, not Keystone. My smaller slides have the plastic material, not Darco. My larger slides have Darco.

[Jennifer Fuzion 414]

Originally Posted by Vet4jdc

I find it interesting that BAL recommends these and the quantities they say to use while Keystone has ignored their use on so many units.

I prefer the word “typical”. Apparently Bal has told Keystone on many occasions that the rollers are needed but it has been ignored. What boggles my mind is why out of all my slides, the only one with rollers is the smallest one that would be the bedroom slide.

[Jennifer Fuzion 414]

With all due respect you sound Ike a Keystone employee covering their donkey. Whoever their vendor is, builds it to Keystones specs in the RFP and contract, I doubt very much Keystone has tried to have them do it and the supplier has refused, that’s a ridiculous comment.