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Old 03-26-2015, 09:10 AM   #1
JRTJH
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Should We Advocate Towing Overloaded ???

Rather than go off topic with a current thread concerning towing "close to" or "over the limit", I decided to start a new thread as a place to exchange opinions. This way, we are not "hijacking" another thread.

Some people make the assumption that being "close" is "good enough" when it comes to payload, GVW and GCWR. I've heard many times, "If you're OK on axle weight, don't worry about the GVW" and I've heard, "You can decide whether to use the GVW or the Axle Ratings, you don't need to follow both". Unfortunately, neither of those is correct according to the Ford, GM or RAM owner's manuals. If, "close is good enough," then the same argument can be made with the airlines, "just stack in a few more passengers and add more fuel." We can make this jet fly further than it's designed to fly and make more money. Or with the Greyhound, "just put an overhead rail and let passengers stand" or with child seats, "put two kids in one booster chair, it'll be OK"..... There's a reason why safety limits are ALWAYS conservative. If they were "on the other end" they wouldn't be "safe".....

We've seen and heard on this forum a number of times, "My rig tows great, it's rock solid and doesn't strain towing and my transmission doesn't overheat, so I'm sure it's OK." Is that really the truth? or is it just that so far, they haven't been in the situation where everything is right to lose control? Statistically, many will never encounter that situation where it all goes bad, but for those who do? Having a rig that is outside the control design limits makes it even harder to avoid damage/injury when that situation occurs. Do any of us know with any certainty, that we won't ever encounter those situations?

As I've said a number of times, it's only a matter of "when" before the states figure out how lucrative the fines can be if they start weighing RV's and enforcing payload/GVW limits. When that happens, the owners of these overloaded rigs will be "crying loudly" that it's unfair to fine me, I've never had an accident.... Just how far will the argument, "But officer, the manufacturer built in a "fudge factor" so I'm OK." The vehicle manufacturers place their engineering limitations on the vehicles for a reason, it's not "arbitrary" or "guessed" but an engineering limitation to prevent product failure. What the "upper limit" really (or could be) is as much "product reliability" as it is "safety related".

As an example, imagine an axle "designed" to support 10500 pounds, rated and used at 10000 pounds. Would every axle fail at 11000 Likely not, but somewhere above 10500 they all will fail. Is it 12003? If so, why not just rate all of them at 12002? Why at 10000? Because the manufacturing process can't be "exact enough" to guarantee none will fail until loaded above 12003, some may fail at 10999, or even at 10501. But the manufacturer can be sure that they will all function as designed at 10000. So, rate them all "SAFELY" at 10000 and you KNOW your product is safe AND reliable..... So, is there a "safe zone" above the rating? Maybe so, maybe not. It depends on the manufacturing process which isn't "exact". Some will/some won't.... Which one is in your truck?????

Would I feel "comfortable" pushing the limit and going over "a few pounds"... No, I wouldn't (that's my choice), and I don't have to worry about it because I calculated my rig's real weight and figured in a "cushion" that allows me "not to have a need to even "go there"...... Unfortunately, too many "novice" RV'ers don't even have a clue. They go looking, fall in love with and buy a 36' travel trailer with all the bells and whistles, have a "low powered half ton short wheelbase truck, get "promised it'll work" by the salesman so they "think they're OK".... They may go several thousand miles without a problem, so they "convince themselves" they're OK.... but what's really happening to the mechanics of their truck? to the safety of the people who share the road? to their family, sitting in the back seat watching videos, unaware of the overloaded condition that their "protector" has placed them in? What happens to them and their rig when they do encounter that event where all the cards are stacked against them and their rig is over the limit? Will they have the advantage of being within the design limits or will they be relying on luck to pull them through? Have they followed all the design limitations and followed all the safety parameters, or have they exceeded one or more and placed themselves, their family and others in danger because they didn't know, or worse, made the inappropriate decision to "just ignore the limits" because "there must be some leeway built in".... Is that responsible? or is that fool-hardy" ????

I'm not "really concerned about the safety" of someone who has a trailer pin weight that puts their truck 45 pounds over their payload, but I am sincerely concerned with someone who believes a F250 with a payload of 2700 pounds can somehow carry 800 pounds of passengers, 800 pounds of hitch and cargo AND tow a fifth wheel with an empty pin weight of 3100 pounds. Oh well, just add airbags, you'll be OK, it's level isn't it?

Now the question would be: How much overload is OK and how much is "too much"??? That's the debate that owners get into when they "justify just a little bit more".... and there's only one "correct answer" to that question...

There's a lot more to towing safety than just being "close to the payload, my truck's level and my transmission doesn't overheat"....

That's my opinion, I'm sure I'll open a "hornet's nest" of criticism, but safety for myself, my family and others that share the busy, crowded highways with me is important. I don't like to see unsafe, overloaded rigs on the highways. If there were a reliable mechanism to report them and get them off the highways, I'd be the first to advocate using that reporting system.

My final thought: Should the forum and its individual members accept the responsibility for what goes wrong by stating that it's OK to tow overloaded? My answer: By no means would I suggest that response !!!

Let the flames begin !!!!!
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Old 03-26-2015, 09:48 AM   #2
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Double thumbs up John....
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Old 03-26-2015, 10:24 AM   #3
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I couldn't agree more! To add to your thoughts.....I am the fleet manager at a Chevrolet Dealer in upstate NY....some of our half ton trucks have tow ratings of 11,000 pounds....just because something is rated for a weight, does not mean it is safe or should be done. Would I use a half ton truck to tow a 10,500 pound trailer from my house to my seasonal spot 2 times a year 50 miles down the road with my wife and kid following me....sure. Would I have driven the half ton the 450 miles to RV wholesalers and dragged a new 10,500 pound camper back? Nope. This is just my personal opinion of course....but I own a 3500 SRW duramax and I know that when I pull 10,000+ pounds I know its back there, I can feel it push and pull the truck and I also know when I hit the brakes I have the suspension, frame, brakes and heft of my tow vehicle to help me stop......I'm not sure how comfortable I would feel doing the same in a half ton!
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Old 03-26-2015, 10:39 AM   #4
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John, you have made all good points. I have wanted to compare overloading a truck and rv to overloading my boat and crossing the bar into the pacific or overloading a aircraft and flying anyway. All can and will have bad endings at some point. Is that comparing apples to oranges?. So far at least here in Oregon RVs are down below the radar as weight enforcement. My opinion is that is so only because of the few accidents compared to passenger vehicles and comm vehicles traveling on the roads. That could change at any time as you said. On here at the very least we can do is attempt to show or explain what those GVWR, CGVWR, payload mean and encourage all to go to the scales to get real weight.
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Old 03-26-2015, 11:10 AM   #5
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Basic answer...everyone should accept responsibility for their actions, but if we keep emphasizing that an overweight issue may exist on more than an irregular basis, despite there being no/minimal accident data to substantiate the claim and concerns, then some pinheaded bureaucrat may be diverted from doing what needs to be done and begin to legislate a solution for a problem that essentially doesn't exist (I know...too late). We have enough problems in this world without legislating towing requirements more than we already have without considering the unintended consequences. The last thing I want to do is get in the conga line at a highway inspection station every time I run across one on a road trip. Another loss of freedom for what gain?

On many levels in life, it is possible to actually be safe without being legal.
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Old 03-26-2015, 11:13 AM   #6
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And I could cross the street and get hit by a bus tomorrow...

That said, many people do crazy things, what about the people who pass you on the highway towing or not, going 85 mph, if towing, does not matter what the weight is, something bad will happen.

I know many people do not know enough about weights or don't want to know but I hate weight police on line, some are not nice (other sites...). If I read something that does not seem good, I try to suggest they look at there numbers but if they are close I wish them good luck. I do believe there is some safety built into the numbers but as you said, who knows how much. It is at least enough to cover the warrenties on the trucks but beyong that who knows. If you need to add equipment to the truck beyound the hitch then I say you need to rethink what you are doing.

For 3 years I towed with a 150, I was close but felt I was in line, especially the first 2 years, the 3rd year we upgraded the trailer which made us real close. When I have my life changing event, I decided I wanted the 350 and went and got one, now I do not give towing a second thought.

Have not seen the flames yet though...
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Old 03-26-2015, 11:19 AM   #7
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Agree totally, x2!


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Old 03-26-2015, 12:19 PM   #8
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Is Weight All That Matters?

One could also argue that other factors enter into the question of safe rving on our highways---for example, the kind of driver that is behind the wheel of that rig barreling down the highway.

If we decided that everyone should be forced to check weight allowances at every truck weighing station, shouldn't we also require that every driver pass a performance test at the same time to show skill (or lack thereof) at handling their rig?

Of course this could quickly get into absurdity, so what is the happy medium? The weight hauling capability is certainly something that should not be taken lightly. So is the skill and attitude of the driver controlling the rig, in my humble opinion.

Luckily,in my neck of the woods (Four Corners and south into Arizona), I have seen very few, if any, accidents involving rv's over the years. I HAVE however, on numerous occasions been rudely passed by rv rig drivers with the pedal to the metal. That when I was traveling at/near the speed limit. My recollections are that more of these drivers are pulling fifth wheels than travel trailers. I can fondly recall remarking to my better half, "what the hell are those bozos in such a hurry to get to?????

So, let's hear it for much more emphasis on proper training and driving skills for the person behind the wheel. Just because someone is driving a rig that meets or exceeds all weight limit requirements does not guarantee that they will maneuver it properly down the highway!!
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Old 03-26-2015, 12:23 PM   #9
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I'm glad someone finally posted a thread about towing at or above max weights. I've been towing smaller trailers with my 350 spice never really worried if I was towing too much, however this year we upgraded to a 5ver and it has had me thinking more about what my actual weights are. I've never been to a scale and now with this new 5ver I'm really wanting to know where I'm at as far as weights are concerned. Since I've never been to the scales (and probably a large portion of people who read these posts hasn't either), maybe someone with experience could write about how to get the weights. You know the what to expect? Where? How much? If even one person who reads this thread is convinced about how important it is to know your limits, then this has been a successful thread. Not to mention how much safer they'll be on the roads.
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Old 03-26-2015, 12:35 PM   #10
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Excellent points John. The various weight factors are confusing to some folks and when an issue is pointed out they are appreciative. I think others know they are overloaded and don't think it's an issue or don't care - some get angry if you point it out as we've seen in some posts. Either way they are ultimately endangering themselves and others. As you stated, a person doesn't know which overloaded component was built "extra strong" or "just barely strong enough". When that "oh! no!" moment comes they are going to find out WHY there are weight limitations. They may have towed 100,000 miles and been lucky, but, once the dominoes start falling they tend to cascade pretty quickly. In my opinion a prudent, safe person knows the weights and stays under them with a safety margin. The lives of your wife, family, puppy and others on the road depend on it.

In my previous life (prior to my retirement life) I used to be invited to give safety meetings. In some of them I related personal experiences. When stressing to employees the importance of being safe ALL the time I told them the only times I have been in serious or deadly accidents I never knew it beforehand. I knew what happened after I woke up. Unfortunately, in some instances, some didn't wake up (none my fault). Waking up in total silence with dead and semi dead people around you isn't fun (none my family). I can't imagine if any had been my family. That's the way it happens. In an overload situation, when the catalyst happens, it won't be a "lights out", wake up and wonder what happened. It will be a slow motion twisting, flipping, screaming, screeching nightmare. God forbid anyone having to watch their wife or children go thru that because they wanted to "fudge" a bit.

All that to say NO we should not condone towing overloaded or say it is OK. Should we point out what appears to be an overload situation based on the info provided in someone's post? I think we should point it out. Some take it to heart and some don't want to hear it but I would rather point it out in case the individual was unaware.....jm2cents (maybe 5 )
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Old 03-26-2015, 12:39 PM   #11
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Iresqu ,

Here is a thread concerning CAT Scales, how to use them and what to expect.

If you haven't weighed your rig, you're really, REALLY towing "in the blind". http://www.keystonerv.org/forums/sho...ghlight=scales

Another good site for information is here: http://fifthwheelst.com/weighing-guide.html
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Old 03-26-2015, 01:05 PM   #12
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Iresqu ,

Here is a thread concerning CAT Scales, how to use them and what to expect.

If you haven't weighed your rig, you're really, REALLY towing "in the blind". http://www.keystonerv.org/forums/sho...ghlight=scales

Another good site for information is here: http://fifthwheelst.com/weighing-guide.html
Thanks for the info!
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Old 03-26-2015, 02:18 PM   #13
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Most excellent thread, John! I'm glad you mentioned Fifth Wheel St. which is dedicated to RVing safety.

As for not saying "if," but "when," there is a new true story segment at FWS where Scott and Heather shared their horrifying experience.

Obviously, not all RV accidents are directly related to overloading or mismatched towing combinations, but my gut feeling is that if some hadn't pushed the weight safety limits so much, many accidents may have been less severe, or avoided all together.

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Old 03-26-2015, 02:44 PM   #14
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Something used at capacity doesn't mean it will last forever at capacity. Material fatigue has to be considered. Any item used at half capacity will last longer than something used at capacity. Capacities are engineered with a life span that is not usually documented. It is usually documented as capacity at normal use.
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Old 03-26-2015, 02:58 PM   #15
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I have been towing 10,000 lb + fifth wheels now for about 5 years and heavy travel trailers long before that. I was towing a 11,500 lb fiver with a 2008 GM 2500 HD for a one season. Did the truck handle OK? Yes. However, with the family on board and hitched up, I scaled the truck and was about 500 lbs over the trucks gvwr. This didn't site right with me so I moved to a one ton SRW. Since then, I feel good with the fact that I am towing well within the "posted" ratings of my truck. It was a personal and smart decision. My family is the most important thing Is have. Being considerate of the safety of others comes next.
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Old 03-26-2015, 02:59 PM   #16
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Honestly..... as a professional truck driver, you have much bigger safety concerns all around you on our roads and highways. I see accidents on a weekly basis, lots of them bad ones. In my opinion most are caused by aggressive driving or distracted driving. I realize this is an RV forum so that is what we are focused on but I rarely ever see an accident involving an RV. Matter of fact I rarely see an RV on the side of the road. But I do see smaller utility trailers and boat trailers on the side. Most of them old and probably had a wheel bearing or tire failure. I'm not going to say your wrong to bring it up but I don't see it as major problem on our highways. That said I also don't condone 3-4000 lb pin weights on 3/4 ton trucks. I just don't think it's a big enough problem to get worked up over and I also don't want to be over regulated and have my trip interrupted with safety inspections. If we were to do anything I think it should be geared toward aggressive drivers, tailgaters, texting, and distracted drivers. Though I don't know how that gets regulated, above my pay grade. Not to mention all the unsafe cars out there with worn out rusted brakes, suspension components, bald tires and lights that don't work. I think RVs are small potatoes in the large scheme of things. I think it's okay to point it out on these forums but some people seem to be obsessed with it. Before you all flame me remember, you asked me! [emoji1]
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Old 03-26-2015, 03:07 PM   #17
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Forgot to mention drunk drivers and fatigued drivers. Again RVs are the least of my worries.
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Old 03-26-2015, 03:24 PM   #18
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Honestly..... as a professional truck driver, you have much bigger safety concerns all around you on our roads and highways. I see accidents on a weekly basis, lots of them bad ones. In my opinion most are caused by aggressive driving or distracted driving. I realize this is an RV forum so that is what we are focused on but I rarely ever see an accident involving an RV. Matter of fact I rarely see an RV on the side of the road. But I do see smaller utility trailers and boat trailers on the side. Most of them old and probably had a wheel bearing or tire failure. I'm not going to say your wrong to bring it up but I don't see it as major problem on our highways. That said I also don't condone 3-4000 lb pin weights on 3/4 ton trucks. I just don't think it's a big enough problem to get worked up over and I also don't want to be over regulated and have my trip interrupted with safety inspections. If we were to do anything I think it should be geared toward aggressive drivers, tailgaters, texting, and distracted drivers. Though I don't know how that gets regulated, above my pay grade. Not to mention all the unsafe cars out there with worn out rusted brakes, suspension components, bald tires and lights that don't work. I think RVs are small potatoes in the large scheme of things. I think it's okay to point it out on these forums but some people seem to be obsessed with it. Before you all flame me remember, you asked me! [emoji1]

Very nice post and agree 100%. This topic has been and will be discussed forever and won't change in my opinion anytime soon, if ever. I'm not saying its okay to tow overweight, just saying its a non issue as far as RV related accidents in my opinion. If it's regulated the RV industry would be out of business pretty quick I think. Most RV owners aren't going go buy a 1 ton SRW, let alone a dually. Out of all the things I can think of related to driving and safety I'd put RV's at the very bottom. Of course if one is involved in an accident and the right person ( RV knowledge) is involved it could spell disaster for the person towing the RV illegally. I prefer to be safe and legal but really don't see any real accident issues related with 5th wheel towing. Saying that, I think you're crazy to haul a 40 foot plus toy hauler with an F250/2500.

As far as aircraft and weights, there's a lot of variance there also. None of the passengers are weighed and neither is their carry on luggage. It's all an "average". It's regulated to death but meanwhile still uses just an average weight.
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Old 03-26-2015, 03:31 PM   #19
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larry337 - I don't think anyone is getting "worked up" over overweight vehicles. The original question was if it should be condoned or say it is "OK". Obviously, many people pull overweight, and yes, RV accidents don't compare to conventional accidents.....but there are far less RVs than cars/pickups/trucks.

Aggressive, drunk, distracted etc. drivers are THE biggest problem on the road but not the focus of an RV forum. I drive about 100k miles a year and have for many, many years. I too see lots of accidents and most are not RVs but I have seen quite a few. We don't get to offer advice or counsel to the kinds of drivers mentioned but they are "out there" and we have to deal with them in whatever way we have to.

On this forum when someone posts information that shows that they are, or could be, overweight I think it is proper to mention it. You don't have to be mean spirited or pushy, just informative. Some don't have any idea; some think they may be but don't know and don't know how to find out; some are and don't care. I think it behooves a person to try to help another person if it is possible.

To me a person buys an RV for fun and relaxation; a way to take the family, friends and others away from the normal hum drum of daily life to have new, wonderful experiences. Why would anyone knowingly put all of that at risk by overloading their vehicle or RV? I don't know that question and have to assume it is either ignorance (not a bad thing) or arrogance. The former you can fix, the latter not so much. I just think it's right to point it out to hopefully help someone. Some folks get in a pickle by buying too big and can't afford another TV or smaller trailer. At that point I guess they will use what they have and hopefully be knowledgeable of the situation they are in and upgrade when they can. I was in that position on my last RV purchase; I figured I would be OK but when scaled.....I wasn't. I was over by 400lbs. I couldn't accept living with that so had a new truck within 60 days....but that's just me.
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Old 03-26-2015, 03:35 PM   #20
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Brenda and I drive about a total of 50,000 miles a year. Larry, we both agree with you. We are certainly not condoning towing over limits, but the problem is way, way down the list of problems on the highway. We also enjoy this discussion, however. It does bring out the best in all of us.
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