Frozen pipes

[Skyband1]

I have a 2015 Passport Ultralite that is all season equipped. I live in it and when the temperature gets down to below freezing the pipes freeze, even if I am heating the interior. I need to find a schematic of the water lines so I can better insulate or heat them, but I can't seem to find one. Does anyone know where to find it?

[travelin texans]

You won't find schematics for any of the systems on your Passport or any other model in the Thor stable of rvs.
Also by now you've figured out that any cute gimmicky all season name rv manufacturers give their RVs it's just that, a sales gimmick.

[Gary Rivers]

I have a Keystone springdale with enclosed bottom. I found that they ran my pex lines along the support beam closest to the water inlet. These lines are against the steel without insulation. This summer I plan to pull back the cover and put foam rubber insultation on those lines or at least move them off of the metal.
I have skirted my camper and put heat source underneath. Our Campco heated waterline froze at -4 although rated to -8 wish you luck.
We just used bottled water until the lines thawed.

[B-O-B'03]

Many have asked and I am fairly certain that no such schematics exist, even on the production line, since no two trailers seem to be built the same.

-Brian

[Ken / Claudia]

I question what have you done to prepare the RV to use it in the winter. If you were under the impression you could just park it and use it throughout the winter without any winterizing you are going have problems.
So, to keep the pipes from freezing along with everything else, what are you are you doing now? If you ask for help to get through a cold winter while living in a RV you will get good advice on here.
There is a lot more than just knowing were the pipes are and putting foam around them.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by Ken / Claudia

I question what have you done to prepare the RV to use it in the winter. If you were under the impression you could just park it and use it throughout the winter without any winterizing you are going have problems.
So, to keep the pipes from freezing along with everything else, what are you are you doing now? If you ask for help to get through a cold winter while living in a RV you will get good advice on here.
There is a lot more than just knowing were the pipes are and putting foam around them.

To add to that last statement, in some situations, maybe in "many situations when using an RV" putting insulation around the pipes does more harm than good. Depending on where the pipes are located, putting foam "pipe wrap" on them may actually cause them to freeze and prevent them from thawing. If the foam is put on pipes near the frame rails, then allowed to "lay against the steel rail" the foam can compress, reducing the insulation and allowing the pipe to freeze. As you heat the bottom/belly of the trailer, the foam around the pipe can prevent the heat from reaching the frozen pipe, making it impossible to thaw it for much longer than if the pipe was "open to the warmth"....

I don't know of any Keystone product, from the cheapest entry level to the most expensive "luxury" model that will remain functional in extremely cold weather without using outrageously large amounts of propane, electricity or both. By "outrageously large amounts" I mean that you can easily use as much energy to heat/live in a 30' (240 square foot) RV as you would use in a 1000 square foot "conventional house"....

So, don't believe the "sales hype" (trying to refrain from calling it BS) from the RV brochures and salesmen. While some models are a "bit better in staying warm" no Keystone trailer will remain "functional and cozy warm" in below zero weather without using every BTU of propane, electric heating and often times, also the stovetop burners to keep it above 70.

Now, with additional measures like skirting, insulation on the windows, sealing the slides to prevent air leaks, possibly adding foam sheeting to the outside ends of the slides and to the slide floors you can reduce propane consumption a bit, but plan on a 30 pound tank every 3 or 4 days when it's below freezing and the wind is blowing..... Even then, you won't be casually walking from your "nice warm bed" to the toilet in the middle of the night in your skivvies.....

Oh, and don't forget the three or more "plastic single layer domes" over all the roof vents. They "leak heat" through that plastic dome at the same rate as opening a window or the front door. Use "vent pillows" or foam blocks cut to fit to help reduce the heat loss... Don't forget to remove the bathroom vent pillow and turn on the fan when showering or you'll have "rain on the inside of the windows. Same with boiling water, cooking on the stove. Any excess moisture will collect, first on the windows, next on the cooler wall surfaces, like behind the sofa, against the spot where the mattress touches the wall, etc. So even using "insulation" sometimes you have to adjust using it to prevent even "worse things" from happening.

[Wilco]

My hot and cold water lines run together along a beam of my trailer. I ran heat cable (like is used to keep gutters from freezing) along the hot and cold water lines. I used electrical tape to bundle it all together. I then placed the bundle inside large pool noodles to insulate them. I used zip ties to hold this to the beam under the trailer instead of the metal clamps to limit heat loss. I keep the fresh water tank full because the water hose can still freeze. I wrapped the excess heat cable around the black and grey water valves to keep them from freezing. I used roof repair tape to secure the heat cable to the valves. The plug for the cable is at the black water valve.

If extended cold weather is forecasted, I close the gray water valve and only dump it when the tank is full. This prevents the drain hose from freezing solid.

[Strwbry]

I have the same model and I am currently dropping some of the coroplast and making my own schematic.

[TXiceman]

I am afraid that a Passport is not an all season trailer. It is easy for the manufacturer to add some marketing hype and an All-Season or Arctic Pac sticker.

We full timed for 10 years in a true full-time and all season rated 5er and were in temperatures as low as 10 degF and as high as 110 degF. It had extra insulation, dueal pane windows, heated basement, radiant heat barrier. It was expensive and heavy. You could buy several Passport trailer for what that trailer cost.

Your best bet for cold weather is to enclose under the trailer using an insulating barrier and heat this under area. Add a double barrier at the windows.

Ken

[NH_Bulldog]

Our Passport says “Extended Season Camping”. It is not a 4-season camper, nor is it rated for full time living, nor does my insurance cover full time use.

While you may have your reasons for trying to live in the camper in the winter, your camper wasn’t designed, engineered or built for year-round use, regardless of what the promotional literature leads you to believe.

[9546mt]

There are many posts regarding frozen water pipes and little or no heat in the fifth wheel front bedrooms, but I've never seen anyone mention insulating the inside of the frame rails. They are huge heat sinks! Has anyone insulated their frame rails and if so, how did you deal with the potential for condensation? It seems like spray on foam would work in some areas.

My cold bedroom was the result of poor workmanship and using flex tubing for 20 foot runs. They crushed the tubing where it passed through the floor by the furnace and where it went through some crossmembers. In some places the opening was only about 2 inches.

Insulating the underbelly would also help with air condition.

[KitKat24]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

To add to that last statement, in some situations, maybe in "many situations when using an RV" putting insulation around the pipes does more harm than good. Depending on where the pipes are located, putting foam "pipe wrap" on them may actually cause them to freeze and prevent them from thawing. If the foam is put on pipes near the frame rails, then allowed to "lay against the steel rail" the foam can compress, reducing the insulation and allowing the pipe to freeze. As you heat the bottom/belly of the trailer, the foam around the pipe can prevent the heat from reaching the frozen pipe, making it impossible to thaw it for much longer than if the pipe was "open to the warmth"....

I don't know of any Keystone product, from the cheapest entry level to the most expensive "luxury" model that will remain functional in extremely cold weather without using outrageously large amounts of propane, electricity or both. By "outrageously large amounts" I mean that you can easily use as much energy to heat/live in a 30' (240 square foot) RV as you would use in a 1000 square foot "conventional house"....

So, don't believe the "sales hype" (trying to refrain from calling it BS) from the RV brochures and salesmen. While some models are a "bit better in staying warm" no Keystone trailer will remain "functional and cozy warm" in below zero weather without using every BTU of propane, electric heating and often times, also the stovetop burners to keep it above 70.

Now, with additional measures like skirting, insulation on the windows, sealing the slides to prevent air leaks, possibly adding foam sheeting to the outside ends of the slides and to the slide floors you can reduce propane consumption a bit, but plan on a 30 pound tank every 3 or 4 days when it's below freezing and the wind is blowing..... Even then, you won't be casually walking from your "nice warm bed" to the toilet in the middle of the night in your skivvies.....

Oh, and don't forget the three or more "plastic single layer domes" over all the roof vents. They "leak heat" through that plastic dome at the same rate as opening a window or the front door. Use "vent pillows" or foam blocks cut to fit to help reduce the heat loss... Don't forget to remove the bathroom vent pillow and turn on the fan when showering or you'll have "rain on the inside of the windows. Same with boiling water, cooking on the stove. Any excess moisture will collect, first on the windows, next on the cooler wall surfaces, like behind the sofa, against the spot where the mattress touches the wall, etc. So even using "insulation" sometimes you have to adjust using it to prevent even "worse things" from happening.

Wow. Not going to lie, my stomach sank when I read this. I have no choice but to live in my Keystone 298RE throughout the winter at least. Can you give recommendations on any of the things you mentioned or possibly links where to buy? (Vent covers etc)

I have straw around my trailer right now because I can't afford to buy skirting.

You mentioned sealing the slide outs. Do the slide outs have to be slid in for the winter? I'm also wondering if I should put jacks or anything underneath them if I want to leave them out for the winter?

[TXiceman]

Truthfully, Keystone does not make a 4 season RV. They can put on all kinds of stickers for Polar or Arctic pac and they mean nothing. Heat pads on the tanks Don t mean much at all.

The sales hupe withe the extreme temperatures show are meaning less. They are in a control chamber with no wind and no solar load. Try 110 degF out side and direct sunlight. The solar load is horrible. Same for the winter with wind.

Now for skirting, hay or straw is bad. It is a huge fire hazard and a great heaven for rodents in the winter. You are better off getting 1/2" or 1" foamboarf from a building supply and staking them in place and tape the panels. Get a 500 to 800 Watt electric heater and place it in the space underneath. You may need to put a 100 Watt heat lamp in the basement as well.

Open any cabinet doors that have pipes coming up through them to keep them warmer.

The heated water hoses are useless if the water source is not heat traced and insulated. The water connection station in the trailer may need an additional heat source.

We have wintered in 10 degF with snow and ice in a true 4 season trailer and we did fine, but or neighbors in Keystone and other like trailers were freezing and could not keep the trailer warm.

Good luck in you adventure.

Ken

[jasin1]

with the cost of propane and electricity to heat a rv in cold climates id make sure i was completely insulated everywhere….id spend the money now to save on propane costs ….id put foam skirting and a thermostat controlled heater under the trailer or whatever i needed to keep the trailer water pipes from freezing…if they do freeze and spray water everywhere you would have a much bigger problem and the cost of repair would far exceed the cost for skirting and extra insulation.

you also need to have some fresh air in the trailer so have to keep that in mind when sealing everything off.

If a person has their own piece of land and there are no restrictions it may be easier to winterize the trailer water system and take showers elsewhere during the coldest part of the winter…If you live in the country you can build an outhouse or use a composting toilet…you could even rent a construction portapot for the winter.

If at a campground you could use their bath facilities…yeah i probably wouldn’t like these choices but heating a trailer to keep the pipes from freezing could be expensive….and i wouldn’t leave the water on if i left the trailer which could make the pipes freeze easier so it’s a catch 22

[notanlines]

No, do NOT put any jacks under your slides, and they stay out when you’re living in the RV.

[markdol1]

My brother in law is moving full time into his trailer and asked me to help winterize him. We were going to do a foamboard shirt to begin with. I was wondering if putting additional foamboard directly to the chloroplast underbelly directly would be worth the work and cost. I was thinking of the 2 inch pink product with the higher r value would be the best bet.

[rhagfo]

We full time in the PNW mainly Oregon State parks as host. One thing we do to keep pipes from freezing is run the furnace to keep the belly warm. I have also add ridged foam insulation under the outer area where the pipes run to our kitchen sink.
We do have “cheap Heat” which allows the furnace to run on electricity rather than propane.