Upgrade to Lithium Batteries?

[Ken / Claudia]

Yea, thats another point I have the 2000 yamahas that I can run anytime. Next trailer is coming with a 3600 Onan and 170 watt solar. I can add several more 170 watt panels and might but waiting to see how well all three work together. That might take a few trips to figure it all out.

[JRTJH]

We almost exclusively "camp" without shore electricity. When we "travel" we almost exclusively have shore electricity. These two "typical RV uses" are significantly different with different "energy profiles"...

When we "camp" we're usually in some remote area, far from the power grid, next to a pristine lake where fishing is excellent and TV reception is just the opposite. We are not limited by battery power, but rather by potable water and black tank size. So, to focus on "improving battery function" (which is not a limiting factor) would be "money wasted".

Like others, two GC2 deep cycle batteries last longer than a week, we have a pair of 2KW generators (only need one to recharge) and those two batteries are "brand new last summer" only because Sam's Club had them on sale for $69 each. Our old ones were 6 years old, still working well, but I'd planned to replace them this spring. With that sale ($60 off the pair) it just made sense to me to replace them a year early.

I'd guess that at my age, these two batteries will last "longer than we'll be using the trailer"...

To me, the bottom line is that investing in a "state of the art battery system with an expensive solar recharging system to keep it working" is an expense "over and above what we need" and a replacement for an operational system that is providing everything we need, most of what we want and all of what we use.

Seems in our situation, upgrading to a "state of the art battery system" is sort of like trading our brown tow vehicle for a red one that has less numbers showing on the odometer. It would be nice, but an expense that just doesn't compute in our "use profile"..... YMMV, depending on how you use your RV.

[mikec557]

I think there's a wild card involved in the topic of usage and needs. In the past when discussing boondocking, the topic of parasitic draw would come up. Many who have boondocked years/decades mentioned that their parasitic draw was under 1Ah. If memory serves, something like .5-.75Ah. I would chime in and say that, without my CPAP usage, my parasitic draw was between 2-1/2Ah. That adds up over a 8-10hr night. And even more when measured sun down to sun up. I use solar panels (320w) to recharge two 100a lithium batteries. So, sun down to sun up at 2-1/2ah parasite adds up. I could never figure out why our parasitic draws were so different.

A couple months ago I realized we use the phrase parasite differently. Or more accurately, our RVs are probably quite different.

One definition of parasite is the most common. The draws we can't (easily) turn off. I think that's the one reported at 1/2-1ah. Here's where my epiphany came in. That's a pre-InCommand computerized RV.

The definition I used was a measurement I made using my Victron BMV-712. Camping with no lights, fans, nor CPAP, my parasitic draw was between 2-2.5ah. Recently I measured the InCommand draws about 1.8ah when it's on, which it's on all the time I'm camping. In storage, it eventually times out and shuts off. When it does that, my parasitic draw is around .75ah. But I can't "camp" that way. I mean I could, but it would be a pain in the butt to keep doing complete shut down and re-boots.

I used to be paid to talk. I guess that's why this is so wordy.

I think the bottom line is that campers considering lithium vs LA need to know their actual needs in a 24hr cycle, exclusive of recharging in the middle. You'll factor that in later. If you have a newer trailer with InCommand (mines a 2020, built in 2019) you need to know you'll consume a lot of Ahs because of it.

I know a battery monitor can be a little spendy. But the information it provides is to valuable to ignore, IMHO.

[Stircrazy]

Originally Posted by snoobler

While Lithium has several advantages, you're also getting a battery that:

1. Can't be charged below freezing without sustaining permanent damage.
2. Can't discharge more than 100A, i.e., 1200W max drain. Period. No exceptions. Got a 2000W inverter for the microwave? Tough noogies.

While Lithium has a higher cycle life, it's not that much higher than well-maintained lead-acid only discharged to ~50%. If you're cycling the lithiums regularly, they are the better value as your cost is cheaper for the total energy delivered over its life, but if you're cycling them infrequently because you're not using the system that much, you've paid a premium for something you don't need and lead may be the better option.

Basically, if you're off grid cycling your battery every day, Lithium wins big. if you're only doing it occasionally, well maintained lead will have a lower cost of ownership.

now thats not nessasarly true, and the way it is stated is kinda misleading. yes you cant charge them when the battery is under 32 degrees, not the outside temp. if you have the battery mounted in the heated space of the camper you can charge to your hearts content.

as for the only discharge 100amps thats not accurate either, it depends on the company and which BMS they use. there are several that are 120amps or even 150amps. also if your going to LFP and you plan on using an inverter a lot why would you get one? you get two and even if the BMS is 100 that gives you 200amps.

a good lead acid battery that is discharged to 50% has a life cycle normaly in the 800 cycle range. a LFP that is only cycled to 50% is normaly 5-7000, lets compare apples to apples here. if you discharge a LFP 100% constantly it is the 2500-4000 range depending on the manufacture. I would say either senario is way better than LA.

as for cost wise, your not just paying for the cycles you also paying for the no off gasing, the fact that they stay above 12V till 9% of capacity and they can be mounted anywhere in any position. alot of people look at it as you can replace 200ah of lead acid with 100ah of LFP. you can but what are you gaining by doing this.. for the typical person nothing. if you have two LA batteries I would get two LFP, why not double your capacity ?? as for price. LFP is now one of the cheepest options per usable AH and almost for total capacity. yes you can get costco batteries cheep but thats what they are. were comparing a cheep battery to a premium.. so lets compare premium with some of the same features, and I'm sorry I have to use canadian prices because thats what I know... so a good AGM 200AH 6V battery up here is over 400 bucks aprochaing 450.00 each. low off gasing multi position capable. I can get 100AH LFP batteries for 400.00 CDN now from amazon. do they have cold weather protection some do some don't but hey Ill put them in the heated utility area of the 5th wheel and move the cables over... what about charging, my solar controler already has a LFP setting, so I need to change out the converter section of my power center so thats about 1 to 200 bucks. so I spent 100 bucks more doing the change over but what did I get. I got double the capacity and because I never totaly drained the other batteries I woun't be going below 50% on these so I'll get way above the rated life out of them and never have to buy batteries again in all reality.

now that was a made up senario, I am actualy ordering the individual cells and putting togeather four 300AH batteries myself with custom BMS. three of these will go in my 5th wheel replacing four 235AH GC batteries . this will take me from 235 usable AH to 900 usable AH , the 4th battery is going to replace the 208AH costco 6V's I have in my camper which will take me from 108 usable to 300usable AH. the total cost of each of these batteries os going to be about 500 bucks (up here the costco batteries are 180 after tax and I would need 6 of them to get the same usable AH in the camper) also the weight reduction in the 5th wheel will be about 120lbs, and in the camper it is 120lbs... weird how that worked haha..

thats the key here. for a DIY LFP battery that is 300AH, the size can be 11" x 8" x 8" and weighs roughy 42lbs.. and I can get 250Amp BMS if I decide thats what I want.

so when looking at LFP we need to look at a much larger picture, the biggest complaint is people dont have enought battery to go X amount of time with out there solar having sun or before having to start up the noisy generator. so if we can fit more AH in a smaller lighter package which would let us go 3 or 4 days using power how ever we want to for a few cloudy days, or to be able to leave that genny at home on a long weekend... to me that is the goal here. right now I can survive 3 days with out sun in the truck camper, the LFP battery will take that to about 9 days (I dont have any 120v in there so it is all 12V.) the 5th wheel having 900AH instead of 235 will mean we can use the 120V a lot more than we curently ration for when boondocking now, or to be able to camp more in winter for longer periods when the solar isn't as efective.

to me these are the true benifits of LFP

Steve

[Stircrazy]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

We almost exclusively "camp" without shore electricity. When we "travel" we almost exclusively have shore electricity. These two "typical RV uses" are significantly different with different "energy profiles"...

When we "camp" we're usually in some remote area, far from the power grid, next to a pristine lake where fishing is excellent and TV reception is just the opposite. We are not limited by battery power, but rather by potable water and black tank size. So, to focus on "improving battery function" (which is not a limiting factor) would be "money wasted".

haha, I like to camp like that also, but these new fangled rv's have tv's and dvd players in them, and lids like to use them when the weather is bad or in the evening before bed. I like my electric toaster and my electric coffee pot. I do have a perker when I need itand a stove top toast maker. but stuff like microwave popcorn for the kids, warming bottles for the grand kid and such it all adds up. the good thing is with limiting usage and with sun each day, the batteries are always at 100% when the sun goes down, but in the fall when I have to add the furnace running all day it gets tight if you get a day or four of rain....

Steve

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by Stircrazy

haha, I like to camp like that also, but these new fangled rv's have tv's and dvd players in them, and lids like to use them when the weather is bad or in the evening before bed. I like my electric toaster and my electric coffee pot. I do have a perker when I need itand a stove top toast maker. but stuff like microwave popcorn for the kids, warming bottles for the grand kid and such it all adds up. the good thing is with limiting usage and with sun each day, the batteries are always at 100% when the sun goes down, but in the fall when I have to add the furnace running all day it gets tight if you get a day or four of rain....

Steve

That's precisely why I ended my comment with this: "YMMV, depending on how you use your RV." We all use our RV differently, live/work differently, entertain ourselves differently... We are "in the trailer" to sleep and to eat (if the bugs are bad). Otherwise, we're in the boat, on the water, catching fish (or trying despirately to catch them)... Out of a "typical 24 hour day" we may be inside the trailer for 7 or 8 hours and at least 6-7 of those are in the bed, resting for the next 24 hours on the water....

I'd say that we use the radio in the boat more than the radio in the RV and with the exception of watching the local evening news (to monitor the weather forecast), the TV in the RV is never turned on. We have a Melita 8 cup drip coffee maker and a old "folding toaster" that sits on a burner on the stove.

Now, that said, when we're 'traveling instead of camping" we pull off the road, plug in, turn on the AC, electric water heater, TV, both laptops, and all the awning strip lights. That's an entirely different "electrical use profile" from our "dry camping with battery use".... Honestly, with the exception of the slide power, refrigerator control board and water heater ignition, dry camping "our style" would probably work on a GP24 battery for a couple days. The GC2 setup works great and we've never experienced the need for more power... We just don't use enough electricity dry camping to justify the expense and definitely don't have the need for more battery power.

I'd suspect that there are more than "just us" that don't have the need for increased battery reserves and probably closer to half the forum members who never unlock the door unless there's shore power to plug into.... For those members (and us) the expense of lithium batteries and solar power just doesn't compute.

Now, if we "needed additional power" or "were unable to use a generator to recharge batteries" then an upgrade might be a solution. But that's not the situation, simply because we don't need it with our current battery consumption. If the need changes, the solution may also change, but until then.....

As I ended the last post, I'll end this one the same: YMMV, depending on how you use your RV.

[snoobler]

Originally Posted by Stircrazy

now thats not nessasarly true, and the way it is stated is kinda misleading. yes you cant charge them when the battery is under 32 degrees, not the outside temp. if you have the battery mounted in the heated space of the camper you can charge to your hearts content.

I should have indicated 1C vs. 100A as that's more accurate.

The key here is that you and I are different than most. Probably just a coincidence that we both are named Steve.

I'm currently sitting within 10-20 feet of 76 CALB LFP cells (about 10kWh), several hundred 18650, 19kWh of FLA, 4kWh of LiPo, 15kWh of Li-NMC and about 40kWh of NiMH.

At our off-grid compound where the Montana and our Newmar American Star live, we have another 12kWh of FLA and a mere 5kWh of AGM, oh, and another 38kWh of Li-NMC.

There are at least 4 uninstalled 4S LFP BMS within arm's reach, and I have a Batrium sitting under my desk to control 2X 14S Li-NMC batteries that are under construction (for the love of all that is holy do NOT assemble batteries from hundreds of small cells!). The Batrium will communicate with my Victron system.

Within the the same 10-20 feet, I have 50+ Lithium capable chargers (20-70A) and 2X dedicated 20A 120V circuits in my office because I need them.

I'm an enthusiast. I love Lithium. I rub up against it in ways I don't want my wife to see. I dare you to admit that.

Lastly, two counters...

1. I dare you to put your DIY LFP battery ANY place you might a FLA/AGM/GEL battery installed in an RV. You will find places you would never install it. :P
2. Most prismatic LFP cells strongly recommend terminal up orientation but permit laying on EITHER the long side or short side - never both due to the configuration of the battery internals. There is always ONE side orientation that will starve active material of the liquid electrolyte and damage the cells. AGM is more flexible in orientation unless an LFP battery is built with cylindrical cells like the Battleborn.

ANYWAY, your perception is hugely skewed by your knowledge of DIY and the dramatic cost savings you can achieve by building your own battery to your taste/needs. For the price of a Battleborn, you can build 5X the capacity and 2X the current handling capability. It just requires patience and a lot of time, education and willingness to manage it properly moving forward. You can get this stuff CHEAPER than lead.

Lithium requires education and compromise. For those accustomed to just using lead batteries, those two criteria are accurate enough. If they're really interested, they'll ask for clarification. I've encountered dozens of folks who were very disappointed in their Lithium because it was sold simply as a drop in - all good, no bad. They quickly discover the limitation.

AGM don't off-gas unless something goes wrong. 10kWh of the aforementioned FLA (2S2P Rolls Surrette S-605) sit less than 7 feet from me, and I routinely shove 300A (12V) into it. This is indoors in my home office. Outgassing is rarely a concern except when I'm equalizing it a few times a year. For that I have a whole house fan with the intake in my office.

You and I could sit around fan-boi-ing about Lithium with each other all day long, and we'd both learn something from each other and feel like long lost brothers, BUT we are different from the unwashed masses that lack the "spark."

I love Lithium. The reality is that it's not for most people. Most people just want stuff to work without thinking about it or learning new rules, but it will likely be much more prevalent in the next 5-10 years as limitations ease. Unfortunately, with increased demand for Li on the EV and powergen fronts, we've probably seen the bulk of the cost decrease and may even see costs go up. The 280Ah Eve cells I bought last year are 25% more today and have been since before the "supply crunch" we're in. It took 4 years for the last halving of $/kWh. The industry says IF we continue to see cost reductions, and that's in question due to supply limitations, it's going to take at least 10-12 years for another "halving."

[mikec557]

Originally Posted by snoobler

... I'm an enthusiast. I love Lithium. I rub up against it in ways I don't want my wife to see...

Some people are truly Wordsmiths. Even Artistic in the way they communicate an idea.

I bow to the Master!

[xrated]

Originally Posted by mikec557

Some people are truly Wordsmiths. Even Artistic in the way they communicate an idea.

I bow to the Master!

Plus 1 ^^^^^.............Actually, let make that Plus 2.5 to 3.65!

[snoobler]

Originally Posted by xrated

Plus 1 ^^^^^.............Actually, let make that Plus 2.5 to 3.65!

Ah.. nice one.

Thanks guys. My problem is usually crossing some line...

xrated - waiting to hear from you at the "other" place.

[xrated]

Originally Posted by snoobler

Ah.. nice one.

Thanks guys. My problem is usually crossing some line...

xrated - waiting to hear from you at the "other" place.

I know, got a lot on my plate right now. My wife and I are getting things together for her upcoming heart surgery. I'll be somewhat out of the loop for a few weeks.

[mikec557]

Originally Posted by xrated

I know, got a lot on my plate right now. My wife and I are getting things together for her upcoming heart surgery. I'll be somewhat out of the loop for a few weeks.

Best of luck to you and she.

[snoobler]

Originally Posted by xrated

I know, got a lot on my plate right now. My wife and I are getting things together for her upcoming heart surgery. I'll be somewhat out of the loop for a few weeks.

Damn. I hear you. Wife had a run-in with the "C" word 13 years ago and Dad just dealt with melanoma a few months back (so far, so good).

See ya 'round. Best wishes for your wife!

[xrated]

Thank you guys for the well wishes. I appreciate that.

[travelin texans]

Originally Posted by xrated

I know, got a lot on my plate right now. My wife and I are getting things together for her upcoming heart surgery. I'll be somewhat out of the loop for a few weeks.

Good luck to you both! Praying all goes well!
My DW celebrated 3 years in Aug of her valve replacement, she did amazingly good throughout the whole ordeal, much better than I did!
All the doctors & nurses told us that women tend to do better after open heart surgery due to the fact they don't have the muscle mass in their chest like men. True or not but mine did very well!. They told her at the hospital when she was sitting up & walking to the bathroom after the 2nd day that they were going to walk her through the ward & show all the whining men that she was tougher than them.

[xrated]

Originally Posted by travelin texans

Good luck to you both! Praying all goes well!
My DW celebrated 3 years in Aug of her valve replacement, she did amazingly good throughout the whole ordeal, much better than I did!
All the doctors & nurses told us that women tend to do better after open heart surgery due to the fact they don't have the muscle mass in their chest like men. True or not but mine did very well!. They told her at the hospital when she was sitting up & walking to the bathroom after the 2nd day that they were going to walk her through the ward & show all the whining men that she was tougher than them.

LOL....great success story. Peggy is pretty tough (and a bit hard headed) so I'm sure that she will do whatever needs to be done to make her recovery as good as it can be. Thank you for the well wishes and prayers, I/we appreciate that.

[flybouy]

Praying for a healthy outcome.

[Old_Stevenick]

Sorry if this was already said, I started skimming the posts after page 1.
The weight of a GC battery or other lead acid battery is an issue for me. Carrying them in for the winter and back out again is very hard for me.
LiFEPo batteries are very light. About ½ the weight.
I brought in my two 100AH Ampere Time batteries with ease. No struggling to lift them into a wheelbarrow to roll them into my garage.

[Rocketsled]

IMO, a single 12v battery wasn’t quite enough to overnight at a Walmart if things got cold and the tank heaters came on. 2 6v deep cycle batteries and the Jenny work pretty well, but I need to upgrade the voltmeter… for $15, just knowing the voltage just isn’t enough to inform you on the state of charge…we played with a 150 watt portable solar array last summer and it wasn’t enough to top off the rig AND the CPAP battery. If you have to run the Jenny to top off the rig, just plug in the CPAP battery and hit it at the same time.

I needed a new charger last year for the batteries, plus the two 6v’s was all I wanted to budget last year.

Two lifepo + charger are probably in our future, because one cold night with tank heaters, fridge, and furnace, was going through more than I liked.

[ggoss]

The government to move from fossil fuels to lithium isn't as good of a trade off as they think it is. What they are not telling us is lithium mining is not so "green". The mining process uses exorbident amounts of water and leaves a tons of waist that contaminates the land.
I am by no means a "tree hugger" but I do my research. I was all gung-ho to go to an electric car until I looked up "lithium mining".
Here's just one of hundreds I read …
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/06/b...ning-race.html