Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×
 

Go Back   Keystone RV Forums > Keystone Tech Forums > Keystone Questions
Click Here to Login

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 11-11-2013, 01:13 PM   #1
Tac
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 20
A german camper needs a little help

Hello everybody

As the title shows, i'm a german.

We are passionate campers, since the last 15 years. And now its time to change our travel trailer. (Its hard to leave a family member)
So we look around on the german market for a new or new-used one.
But the space inside is always pretty limited in cause of the 98inch maximum exterior width. And slideouts are really not normal here in europe. So we decide to look over the big pond and see what is there.
At our last holiday a few meters away was an elderly pair which had a really hugh 45feet fifth wheel on a regular 18t prime mover.
We had a little conversation and the man said, they would never do it again and buy a fifth wheel without any deeper information. They just bought the biggest fifth wheel they found and shipped it to germany. After they had it here, they couldn't find a suitable towing vehicle for their normal car licenses, so they needed to buy the regular scania prime mover, and make a truck license. And now he drives the RV combination and his wife drives their car behind to keep them mobile at the places. Of course a normal prime mover is just to big to move around.

But a US fifth wheel with its slideouts etc would be really nice, we think.
Of course we don't want to make the same misstakes.

What we need is a 2+2 concept and we think the Montana High Country 343RL would fit us really good.
And all prices in the usa are really cheap for us here in germany.
For example, a 25feet travel trailer with good features and options here in germany is around 65000$. And the Volkswagen Passat Variant TDI we are driving had a listprice of about 75000$.
And we have the 7715lbs GVWR hardcap for vehicles. If its lighter, its a car, if its heavier, its a truck, with all of its negativ effects. Speedlimit, road permissions, limited driving time per day, etc.

So i went to our TÜV and see what we can do and what we can do not.
And we found a solution.
We have to find a towing vehicle, which need this properties.
First: As light as possible, for the payload.
Second: It must have a empty weight (curb weight?) with all options, liquids and features under 6900lbs. We have the hardcap of 7715lbs minus ~800lbs for 4 passengers. Than i can limit it to the 7715lbs GVWR and get a registration as a car.
Third: It should handle the 343RL. GVWR of the towing vehicle, doesn't matter this time, because we, the TÜV and i, have found a trick. A Vehicle can get multiple registrations here in germany. The first registration would be car without road permissions, speedlimits etc. The second registration would be a RV. The RV can be heavier than 7715lbs, has no driving time regulation and no normal road permissions, it just has a speedlimit, but a trailer towing vehicle has the same speedlimit.
So, if i attach the Fifth wheel to the towing vehicle the hole combination is one RV. If i detach the Fifth wheel, the towing vehicle is a car again.
But towing vehicle and fifth wheel must have a connected braking system, hydraulic or air.

The german overengineering is sometimes really hard to beat.

And the towing vehicle should not be much longer than 236inch, because of the driveability on german streets and in german towns. Its all a little bit smaller than in the usa.

What would be a good towing vehicle under this conditions. 2+2 Seating, 6900lbs empty weight, and 236inch length?

Of course a have already searched for one. A F150 SuperCap 6 3/4 Box Ecoboost with HD Payload package (4800lbs rear axle) and max. Trailertow package would matches good. I can increase the GVWR here in germany from 8200lbs to ~8500lbs. But can it tow the 343RL?


And i have some other questions about the 343RL.
Has it Discbrakes? Drumbrakes are not street legal in germany anymore.
Is it possible to convert it to 17.5inch rims? The 235/80R16E are not buyable in germany. Tires in this dimensions don't have a Loadindex of 3042lbs like the E rated tires.
What is the loaded hitch weight of the 343RL?
Has the 343RL a special point on its roof for a autotracking satelitedish and Solarcells?
Acept Keystone specialorders? It would be much easier for us, if keystone could directly built in a german electricity. Normal 230V 50Hz 16A. And electricity inlet 400V 50Hz 32A 3-phase-current.

Hope you can help me a little bit or more.

Greetings

Tac
Tac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2013, 02:15 PM   #2
cabinfever
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Erie, PA
Posts: 441
Welcome to the site. After reading your post I'm thinking moving to the US may be the simplest answer! Seriously though, I'm sure there are a few very intelligent people here who will be able to answer your questions.
__________________

2007 Silverado 2500HD 4X4
2013 Springdale 303BHSSR
cabinfever is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2013, 02:49 PM   #3
Tac
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 20
Hm, moving to the USA? Okay, if you have a 75000 $/year job with full and payable healthinsurance and retirement fund for me.
Tac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2013, 03:36 PM   #4
billb800si
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: S.E. Michigan
Posts: 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tac View Post
Hm, moving to the USA? Okay, if you have a 75000 $/year job with full and payable healthinsurance and retirement fund for me.
====================

Why sure- don't ya know- our streets are paved with gold.
America- the land of opportunity...
__________________


Bill B. (Michigan)
2014 Cougar H.C. 321RES
2007 Dodge Megacab 6.7 Cummins
billb800si is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2013, 04:00 PM   #5
Pmedic4
Senior Member
 
Pmedic4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Illinois
Posts: 581
Can this vehicle work?

Just looking at the raw numbers, it may not work. The Montana HC has a GCVR of about 12,000 pounds, which puts it over the listed sizes of the Ford F-150 Supercab 4x2 HD which shows 11,300 as it's maximum towing capacity. You might have to go to a F-250, which may give you the capability to tow 12,000 pounds. Hitch weight of 1790 would be under the maximum payload of 2800 given for the truck plus your 2+2 passengers.

Size of the truck at 236", I know from my experiences in driving in Germany, I didn't have enough room driving a rental Mercedes 'A' class. But, hopefully you'd know where your going, and not try those small winding village roads. Stuttgart maybe, Boeblingen/Sindelfingen definitely not. It's difficult to find the empty weight of the truck, but they will be right around 7500 to 8000 pounds for most trucks.

The one primary issue I see you mention is the braking of the Tow vehicle and the RV. They typically are not connected hydraulically or by air as, RV's are typically electrical brakes, ran by the 12 volts of the truck and I'm not sure that is acceptable for the legal towing requirements you describe.
__________________
Ed & Mary

2017 Cougar 333MKS
2015 RAM 3500 HD with 6.4L

Pmedic4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2013, 04:56 PM   #6
Festus2
Site Team
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Fraser Valley BC Canada
Posts: 7,015
Tac -
Personally, I would not want to tow a 5th wheel of that size/weight with anything less than a 3/4T (F250 or 2500). It's just too much for a 1/2T truck to tow it safely. The braking system on Keystone RV's is electric so that would be problematic for you as well as finding a unit with disc brakes as opposed to drum.

In addition, Keystone's "special orders" would not include any deviation from 110VAC to the European voltage/current that you would require. The conversion from 110VAC to 230V would be something that you would have to do yourself. You realize of course that all of the standard and included appliances run off 110VAC which would also have to be replaced. With all of the adaptions and conversions that you would have to do to make this work, the attractiveness of the North American price might soon disappear.

Your plan, in theory, sounds great but there are many obstacles to overcome which make it very challenging to say the least.

Good luck with your efforts.
__________________
2008 Cougar 5th Wheel 27RKS
2005 2500 GMC Duramax
Festus2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2013, 05:16 PM   #7
Tac
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 20
First. Is it okay for you, if i will write all measures in our metric system or would you all prefer it, if i translate them into your imperial system?

And OMG I forgot one absolutly important fact. The Vehicle must be 4x4. I can't register it as a car if it tows a trailer with more the 7715lbs GVWR and is only 4x2.

MB A Class to big? Its a small car, even in germany. I'm driving a Passat which is only a little bit smaller than a E Class. Its okay.

The towing vehicle should not be bigger than a MB Sprinter (Dodge Sprinter) which is ~236"-255" long. But shorter is better.

The F250 could be too heavy for the job. Remember. I need a empty weight that must be so low, that me and my passengers have enough payload to sit in the vehicle, before it reaches 7715lbs.
The F250 with Supercab and 6 3/4 Box as 4x4 has a curb weight (what means curb weight?) of 6625lbs. But what is the empty weight (with all fluids and full gastank) as a fully loaded Lariat?

I have the chance to adjust the vehicle figures a little bit.
Vehicles who are not regulary imported by the manufacturer has no general permits.
This means, if i import a F150 by myself for example and this truck has a 4050lbs front axle and a 4800lbs rear axle, it is rated in the USA at 8200lbs. Here i can go to our TÜV and he looks on the figures and can rise the GVWR because the axles, brakes, rims and tires give him a little bit space. Normaly the brakes are the limiting fact on US vehicles here in germany. They are always a little bit small. So, if i would buy this F150 with additional aftermarket 20" rims and 275/55R20 LI117 tires, i could built in the Bear-Brake Upgradekit and this give the TÜV space to rise the GVWR to ~8500lbs and the towrating maybe to 12000lbs.
And the german rules said only one thing. If you have connected brakes the GVWR of the trailer can be 1,5x GVWR of towing vehicle.

Nothing is chiseled in stone here. This is the advantage of the german overengineering. There is always room for improvment. Rising the GVWR is a daily business for the TÜV. Only the technical properties must be given.
And the money

But to make a vehicle lighter than it is, is just and only a option provided by god.

The brakes could be the problem.
The brakepower must be given by the towing vehicle.
Regulary we have a compressor that provide the brakeair and she is given by to airlanes to the trailer and work directly on the calipers.
But a hydraulic brakesystem is possible too. In 2 ways.
1st a direct tube between towing vehicle and trailer. Is not often used because its difficult to make, expensive and somekind of slippery.
2nd is the electric to hydraulic system. We need 2 wires between the vehicles. One wire for the 12V supply for the hydraulic pump in the trailer who provides the pressure and one wire for the braking signal. (Maybe this can also be provided by one wire, i don't know, must ask the TÜV)
Is the second way not the US E2H-way? At least i found several P'n'P kits for E2H brake conversion.
The brakepower to the calipers must be given by oil or air. A pure electric actuator is not allowed, because of overheating the brakes.
The only thing every connected brakesystem must do, is to full lock the trailer brakes if the connection is terminated. For example if the trailer detaches by himself on a bump or something like this. This should minimize the damage to others.


@Festus2
Thats the fact. A complet conversion with all devices here in germany, which don't run on 12V, will cost properly 10000$ or more, if i have to change the wires. I don't know what all runs on 110V. A fridge with locks in this size will properly be around 1500-2000$. The 2 AC's at least 3000-4000$. And a gas/electric 3,7gal boiler would be at ~1000$. And than, i have the devices for the trashcan, because noone will buy them here in europe. Or, i buy many 230V to 120V converter.
Thats why i ask. If Keystone would give me the option to convert the hole electricsystem with devices to european 230V during the assembly would make it much much much easier.
But, to have a 36ft and 11inch RV with a living space of 36ft and 11inch is just a really really beautifull idea. And if i look on compareable vehicles of european manufactures and what they cost, the idea is even more beautifull. I don't have the money to spend 175000-250000$ for a german, handmade fifth wheel. Even when it has marble on the floor.
Tac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2013, 06:00 PM   #8
Ken / Claudia
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Fruitland
Posts: 3,357
My listed vehicle on here is 7800 lbs with full fuel load 38 gal and 2 adults. I had a F-250 4x4 crew cab short box V10 engine it was 8300lbs with alot of gear in it. Thoose weights were seen at the truck scales. Lenght of them, I do not know. It would be listed on ford web sites.
__________________
2013 24RKSWE (27ft TT) Cougar 1/2 ton series SOLD 10-2021
2013 Ford F350 4x4 CC 6.7 engine, 8 ft bed, 3.55 rear end, lariat package
Retired from Oregon State Police in 2011 than worked another 9.5 years as a small town traffic cop:
As of 05-2020, I am all done with 39 years total police work. No more uniforms for me.
Ken / Claudia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2013, 06:27 PM   #9
Tac
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 20
6.8l V10?

So i had to estimate something around 7300-7400lbs for a F250 Supercab short box without passengers, right?
Tac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2013, 06:28 PM   #10
Pmedic4
Senior Member
 
Pmedic4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Illinois
Posts: 581
It's not the size of the car, but the size of the streets!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tac View Post

MB A Class to big? Its a small car, even in germany.
It's not the size of the car that's important, ( I drive a RAM 2500 in the US), but how narrow some of the old streets in are in Germany! At best I would look like I'm playing bumper cars in my truck.

If you could do the brake conversion you spoke of, that would be the best as there is a 12V power feed and also the 12V brake line.

For power, what do the RVs in Germany use for a converter/inverter? With the costs you mention for appliances it would almost seem you could find some Transformer/converter to change the 220V 50hz to 110V 60hz and put in place for the power feed to the appliances? Then you'd still need to change the outlets to Germany standard, and the question becomes what gauge of wire is required above the US standard for wiring.

By the way, it would seem fun to "Caravan" in Germany. I've seen several locations in my travels, and right next to the hotel where I'd stay is this business:
Caravaning Center Schmidtmeier eK
Mahdentalstrasse 72, Sindelfingen

Interesting to see German versions of RV's.
__________________
Ed & Mary

2017 Cougar 333MKS
2015 RAM 3500 HD with 6.4L

Pmedic4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2013, 07:05 PM   #11
Tac
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 20
I have a normal comercial truck license. So vehicle measurements are not my problem. So believe me, nearly all street are made for 100" wide vehicles. But you are right. In some cases you need balls (is this the right proword for this?)

Of course its easy to buy a converter. 230V to 120V permapower converter are buyable between 80-8000W. 850W will cost ~200$. Don't know what a fridge need. The AC must be changed.
I can tell you the cross section. 230V 16A 1,5-2.5mm^2, 400V 32A 4mm^2. 2.5mm^2 should be 0,035" and 4mm^2 should be 0,044" diameter.


The money you have, the camping you get.
But it must be funny for you in which small tincans some travel. 196x89" is one of our smallest regular buyable up to date caravan. The biggest is 441x100". But here we talk about 140000$ for the biggest one.
And the Motorhomes. Everthing from a small lightduty boxcar to a 39feet 26tons Class A with 3 slideouts for 2500000$.

P.S.
Germany is much more the Bavaria and Baden Wuerttemberg. Like the USA is more than Texas.
Tac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2013, 08:21 PM   #12
Ken / Claudia
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Fruitland
Posts: 3,357
Your right on the engine. The weight without my gear is only a guess 7600-7800. The fuel tank on the short box is 26 gal. Not many here use a 1/2 ton for larger 5th wheels due to overweight, underpowered. The payloads they can carry is limited with the wheels/tires, axles etc. The bigger trucks have bigger engines also.
__________________
2013 24RKSWE (27ft TT) Cougar 1/2 ton series SOLD 10-2021
2013 Ford F350 4x4 CC 6.7 engine, 8 ft bed, 3.55 rear end, lariat package
Retired from Oregon State Police in 2011 than worked another 9.5 years as a small town traffic cop:
As of 05-2020, I am all done with 39 years total police work. No more uniforms for me.
Ken / Claudia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2013, 03:47 AM   #13
Tac
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 20
Underpowered is relativ. A combination of this kind made in germany would normaly be towed by a VW Amarok or a mini prime mover built on a VW T5/Crafter or MB Sprinter. And they all have a diesel with around 180HP and 330lbf ft. Even the light duty commercials with 16500lbs GVWR have only 150-180HP.

Everything with more than 7715lbs or is towing something is limited to 50mph on every street, even on the autobahn. A little overspeeding to 56mph is normal and everyone with those vehicles drive it.

So the Ecoboost or the 6.2l V8 provide exclusiv towingpower.

Has someone a wiringplan for the 343RL with voltages?
Tac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2013, 07:54 AM   #14
Pmedic4
Senior Member
 
Pmedic4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Illinois
Posts: 581
Wiring diagram

You probably found one of the biggest complaints about RV's in the US, and that is there is no details provided for the wiring, or plumbing also. As the purchaser, you have to discover on your own how they built your RV.

I've traveled a little outside of Bavaria and the 'Wild South', but unfortunately when your working, well, they kind of expect you to be there. Which is why I think it would be fun to do some RV'ing in Germany, especially up in the north where I haven't been. One of my favorite places is Rothenburg ob der Tauber, and of course Heidelberg, but your right I didn't get much outside of
Bavaria or Baden-Württemberg.

Perhaps when I retire in a year or two, I'll come visit my friends and we can have a Hefe together.
__________________
Ed & Mary

2017 Cougar 333MKS
2015 RAM 3500 HD with 6.4L

Pmedic4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2013, 08:28 AM   #15
Tac
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 20
A Hefe? URGS, UAHHHH, IHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. Taste a real beer and drink pilsner. Best Koenigs Pilsner. Or if you want it a little more spicy, taste Alt, Diebels for example. Or if you like harsh beers, taste Karlsberg.
I have to send my US relatives 2 bottles every year
And when they come over, the first day the women had to drive, because the men are a little bit "funny"
If you cross the white sausage equator to north, you will get a little culture shock. And do you like our fuelprices?
I live in the lower rhine area. And in a diameter of about 15-20miles it has several campinggrounds here. Included the biggest campingground in hole germany. Nearly 15000 people camp there.


I have hoped, that some electric gifted people made their own wiringplans by looking into their RV's.
Here in germany you get every technical sheet if you ask the manufacturer. Calling Keystone was not really effectiv in that case.

I have called a US Car importer near by. He said, a F250 Lariat with Supercab, ShortBox and 6.2 V8 will have a empty weight of about 7000-7100lbs. This could match. A F250 with a Diesel is to heavy.

Did anyone know how to convert the 343RL to 17.5" Rims/Wheels? 215/75R17.5 with a LI of 134 are buyable here and not too expensive.

I have read something about an axle issue on Keystone fifth wheels. What was the problem?

Where is the gastank in the 343RL?

Which devices run on 12V and which on 120V?
Tac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2013, 09:43 AM   #16
jtyphoid
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Texas
Posts: 265
Quite a few appliances use 12V DC and/or propane, like the lights, most refrigerators, water heater, stove, oven, and furnace. The ones that require 120V A/C are typically the air conditioner, microwave, ceiling fan, washer/dryer, electric element in the water heater, electric heat strips in the air conditioner, and television.
jtyphoid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2013, 09:47 AM   #17
jtyphoid
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Texas
Posts: 265
Another option for power is to get a US generator to provide 120V 60 Hz to the trailer. It would be a bit expensive to run, due to the high gasoline price, but it might be less expensive than replacing a bunch of appliances, over the expected life span.
jtyphoid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2013, 01:25 PM   #18
Tac
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 20
It would be easier to buy a 8000W Permapower 230V to 120V converter. It would just cost ~900$, makes no noise (very importent on european campinggrounds) and don't need fuel.

Has really noone a homemade wiringplan?

I found a ford-matching electric to hydraulic conversion kit with everything inside.
2 Kodiak 13" Discbrake conversions
1 DEXTER Electric / Hydraulic Disc Brake Actuator
1 Hydraulic stainless steel brake tubing kit for leaf spring suspension style axles with Disc brakes
Tac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2013, 01:51 PM   #19
outwest
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Okla
Posts: 363
regarding wiring - from my experience, in days gone by the RV manufacturers here in the U.S. did provide wiring diagrams (I know it was included in manual and paperwork for our 1984 Avion trailer) but nowadays they don't. The manufacturers here have even been known to change things in the middle of the production year, causing units with same year and model to be wired slightly differently.

That being said, the manufacturers must have some wiring diagrams somewhere locked away. But, they wont provide them to the customers nor to the dealers.

There may be some manufacturers out there that will provide wiring diagrams, but I know Keystone certainly wont.

Regarding width of trailer - trailers of 101 inch width is common here (mine is 101 inches). I saw you say roads there would accommodate 100 inch width. Hopefully that extra inch of width wouldn't be an issue.
__________________

2012 Keystone Vantage 32FLS
outwest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2013, 02:26 PM   #20
Tac
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 20
The normal streetlegal vehicle wide is exactly 100,39". If you have isolated sidewalls, the wide can be 102,36".

If i found a wide for the 343RL, its always 8ft or 96". Is this the interior wide?

It would really help me if i would know where the 120V wires are and what they are for. The 12V wiring is not a problem. 12V is also the normal vehicle-voltage in europe.
The gas-system is absolutly no problem. Inch or millimeters, what ever. It just have to hold tight.
Tac is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by the Keystone RV Company or any of its affiliates in any way. Keystone RV® is a registered trademark of the Keystone RV Company.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 02:32 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.