Starting to think my new Raptor is a Lemon.

[Tuz5150]

Originally Posted by DynoGuy

I just bought a 2019 Raptor 415 this last October to full time in since I'm working out in Las Vegas.

It's a sad state of affairs.... and it's not unique to Keystone, all the components are basically the same on all brands. RVs are designed/made for just light weekend use. I'd say 100% china content is to blame.... then pay $10/hr for someone to assemble it.

I'm in process of replacing/fixing stuff on mine.... but I bought it used in really nice condition for next to nothing.

[Old Mustanger]

Wouldn't it be great if RV manufacturers had to be ISO certified!

[ctbruce]

So you know, there is no crazy Keystone conspiracy that sits and enjoys what is said to defend or berate them. There are plenty examples of both on the forum if you read a lot of the posts.

The moderators let these rants and defenses go for the most part. Members help other members address their issues and if someone vents, then it falls on the ears of others who have been there, done that, got the mouse ears.

What we will not tolerate are members belittling or attacking other members. That is not acceptable behavior. We issue warnings in personal messages to members who have chosen to cross the lines of poor behavior, hoping that they will chill out and let it go. Some do, some do not. All are treated the exact same and given the same chance. In the case of the example of this thread, a member made a conscious choice to not accept a warning and a request to calm down. He did not and chose to be banned permanently. Sad, but it happens. We wish him luck for the future but have moved on.

If you are posting thinking that Keystone is the man hiding behind the Emerald City curtain, you are wrong about that. I would challenge anyone to find any evidence of Keystone employees or managers lurking in the background. It just ain't there.

Being a moderator is not always fun and games. We have a great time helping others as much as possible, reading all of the posts, keeping the peace, pointing people to various resources, etc.
The pay sucks (what pay?) and the hours daily are long. But knowing you've helped someone and put a smile back on their face....that is priceless.

[Jfreek65]

Originally Posted by ctbruce

Being a moderator is not always fun and games. We have a great time helping others as much as possible, reading all of the posts, keeping the peace, pointing people to various resources, etc.
The pay sucks (what pay?) and the hours daily are long. But knowing you've helped someone and put a smile back on their face....that is priceless.

As a former mod of other forums I thank you and the others on your team for taking on the largely thankless task of keeping this place going. Many of us have benefited from the info here and that’s largely because you’ve kept it a safe and useful place to go.

[John57]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

John57,

This is NOT a "Keystone owned forum". Keystone RV (the manufacturer, not the forum owner "Social Knowledge, Inc"), of your/my trailer are NOT members of this forum, they do NOT respond to any comments on this forum and as far as I can determine, they do NOT even access or read any of the comments on this forum. This is a forum of "owners and interested public" there is simply no "factory monitoring, factory support or factory intervention" that I've ever seen or even suspected.

Check the disclaimer at the bottom of EVERY forum page: This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by the Keystone RV Company or any of its affiliates in any way. Keystone RV® is a registered trademark of the Keystone RV Company. This disclaimer "used to be bolded and in red" but we found that people don't read it anyway, so that was changed a couple of years ago...

Anyone who "believes they can fix Keystone" by complaining on this forum or by "issuing threats on this forum" are wasting effort that will only be seen by other forum members (not associated with Keystone), most of, I might add, are happy, satisfied owners who can sympathize with but not provide any resolution to those who are not satisfied or happy.

If anyone wants to "fix the industry" by providing "the industry with solutions" this is not the place to converse with "the industry".... THEY AREN'T HERE !!!!!

My apologies John, I did not see the disclaimers. However, I do believe that they along with their competitors and customers are reading your site with regularity. I read as much industry news as I could when I was working... always tidbits to help you or prepare you. Certainly their legal team is.
I do appreciate your efforts in management as I have friends who also manage forums and the time involved is incredible, so thank you.
I do stand by my statements of quality, because I have documented them all thoroughly.
I hope you will accept my apology as I have been under a lot of frustration and at times, downright anger with the problems that came out of the factory with my 427. In some ways your forum is comforting in that I am not alone, but also turns mild frustration into anger at Keystone due to the fact that so many others have the same issues.... I do hope that the RV companies/industry can be "fixed"... though it would take more than just this forum to do so, but I do believe a forum would be a good place to start. It may be as simple as having their higher ups read these....
I hope I didnt turn a good day into a worse one for you. I hope today is a better one.

John

[LewisB]

Originally Posted by ctbruce

...The pay sucks (what pay?) and the hours daily are long. But knowing you've helped someone and put a smile back on their face....that is priceless.

Ok, here's some more pay <that's me!

THANKS to you and the entire site team for the countless hours you spend trying to help us improve the quality of our lives. And thanks for taking action when needed. Even though we forget to say "thanks" - you really ARE appreciated.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by John57

My apologies John, I did not see the disclaimers. However, I do believe that they along with their competitors and customers are reading your site with regularity. I read as much industry news as I could when I was working... always tidbits to help you or prepare you. Certainly their legal team is.
I do appreciate your efforts in management as I have friends who also manage forums and the time involved is incredible, so thank you.
I do stand by my statements of quality, because I have documented them all thoroughly.
I hope you will accept my apology as I have been under a lot of frustration and at times, downright anger with the problems that came out of the factory with my 427. In some ways your forum is comforting in that I am not alone, but also turns mild frustration into anger at Keystone due to the fact that so many others have the same issues.... I do hope that the RV companies/industry can be "fixed"... though it would take more than just this forum to do so, but I do believe a forum would be a good place to start. It may be as simple as having their higher ups read these....
I hope I didnt turn a good day into a worse one for you. I hope today is a better one.

John

The highlighted portion above is the way I have felt and feel from time to time. The forum has helped me put things into a different perspective. My personality is a very A type and can lead to a lot of frustration and anger if left unchecked or I don't ride herd on it. Accepting the "animal" (industry) for what it is is difficult to do, but, the reality is that I, you nor this forum will force the manufacturers to fix what they view as a perfect money making machine.

On a personal level I try to elevate my concerns to the corporate level; directors, CEO, President etc. and express my aggravation and concerns. One of them is Darco and I have spoken directly with the director of design responsible for my line of RV and his take is that it is a good product. Why you may ask? Because they look at the top 5 issues for WARRANTY as things that need to be "fixed". Darco is not ever on that list because is deteriorates after the warranty has expired and I explained that to him. He said he would take it under advisement. At that point there isn't a lot further one can do to "fix" an issue.

I've learned to "accept" RVing for what it is and that is darn near impossible for me. With that and what I've learned over the years, I try to share what information I can so that others don't have to reinvent the wheel repeatedly hopefully reducing some of the frustrations and setbacks I've encountered. I will say this however; this new RV may have me going off the rails...but I hope not. Looked at it yesterday; haven't even signed the papers yet; and the Samsung fridge has 2 dents in the front doors. Whoops! I had asked them to make sure it was in perfect shape upon my arrival back in TX - not a word was mentioned. Then, the sales guy said they would have to turn it into Keystone to see if they would cover it under "warranty"...."WARRANTY"??? I said? I haven't even signed the papers on it!! "Oh, don't worry, I'm sure they will" he says! I say "well, you've purchased slide toppers and installed them, installed a washer and dryer plus new Sailun tires on your dime and you'll get to keep them if CW doesn't repair those doors because I won't sign the purchase agreement". Anyway.....riding herd, that's what I'm trying to do as difficult as it is. Strangely, I don't have that kind of patience in other areas of my life but an RV can sure make one learn new ways....even it's just to keep from having a heart attack!

[chuckster57]

You wouldn’t want to do what I do for any length of time. I get to see the nitty gritty, and the maze of obstacles that must be navigated in perfect form.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by sourdough

The highlighted portion above is the way I have felt and feel from time to time. The forum has helped me put things into a different perspective. My personality is a very A type and can lead to a lot of frustration and anger if left unchecked or I don't ride herd on it. Accepting the "animal" (industry) for what it is is difficult to do, but, the reality is that I, you nor this forum will force the manufacturers to fix what they view as a perfect money making machine.

On a personal level I try to elevate my concerns to the corporate level; directors, CEO, President etc. and express my aggravation and concerns. One of them is Darco and I have spoken directly with the director of design responsible for my line of RV and his take is that it is a good product. Why you may ask? Because they look at the top 5 issues for WARRANTY as things that need to be "fixed". Darco is not ever on that list because is deteriorates after the warranty has expired and I explained that to him. He said he would take it under advisement. At that point there isn't a lot further one can do to "fix" an issue.

I've learned to "accept" RVing for what it is and that is darn near impossible for me. With that and what I've learned over the years, I try to share what information I can so that others don't have to reinvent the wheel repeatedly hopefully reducing some of the frustrations and setbacks I've encountered. I will say this however; this new RV may have me going off the rails...but I hope not. Looked at it yesterday; haven't even signed the papers yet; and the Samsung fridge has 2 dents in the front doors. Whoops! I had asked them to make sure it was in perfect shape upon my arrival back in TX - not a word was mentioned. Then, the sales guy said they would have to turn it into Keystone to see if they would cover it under "warranty"...."WARRANTY"??? I said? I haven't even signed the papers on it!! "Oh, don't worry, I'm sure they will" he says! I say "well, you've purchased slide toppers and installed them, installed a washer and dryer plus new Sailun tires on your dime and you'll get to keep them if CW doesn't repair those doors because I won't sign the purchase agreement". Anyway.....riding herd, that's what I'm trying to do as difficult as it is. Strangely, I don't have that kind of patience in other areas of my life but an RV can sure make one learn new ways....even it's just to keep from having a heart attack!

Want to add that I sent them an email about the fridge today after our conversation yesterday and then talked to them. No problem on the fridge repair; they will handle it however it shakes out. I had them put that in writing...

[dutchmensport]

Wow! what a lively and spirited thread going on here. I think this is the first one with so much "passion" involved, that I've found on this site so far. Brings back some memories of why I left another forum web site! Gee! what memories! So, with all the entertainment out of the way ....

I'm on my 5th camper. 1 pop-up, 3 travel trailers, and now a fifth wheel. The last 3 were all Keystone products. All my previous campers had issues when I took delivery, or shortly there after. The only one that had absolutely no issues, every, was my first travel trailer, and that was a Dutchmen.

Flushing out the sloppy workmanship, or the cheap corner cutting is always going to be part of the experience of RV ownership. Sometimes, it takes a while for such things to unearth themselves. My latest camper, my Montana High Country, has been a real gem. I "feel" like I've completely rebuilt the camper. Upon first site, it appeared everything was in good order. Let the camper experience an earthquake mixed with hurricane force winds for a few thousand miles and then things really started showing up. Things broke, things came apart, things disintegrated. Build, and rebuild. Seems every trip out, it came home broke that first year.

Finally, after almost a year, nothing was left to break, fall apart, or disintegrate. Before parking for the winter, we had a few good week-end outings where nothing happened any more. I think I've finally arrived! NOW, it's a good camper! Firm, solid, and read for (almost) full timing in another years.

It's because of these types of experiences, everywhere I've participated in forums, I've always said, use your camper for at least a year before taking off to go full timing. During that first year, you'll do nothing but flush out problems and doing fixes, and returning the camper for warranty work. That's hard to do if you just purchase and take off immediately. It can be very, very disappointing.

So, basically, the issue of shoddy RV manufacturing is nothing new. It's been around for a long-long time. It's part of the nature of the beast. What does need to happen is, those of us who have experience with such "shoddy" manufacturing, need to do all we can to warn "newbies" wanting to purchase their first RV so they will have a more truthful expectation once they do purchase.

RV purchases and quality cannot be compared to automobile purchases and quality. The two worlds are completely light-years apart. They are two completely separate animals living in two different parts of the universe. If those of us with experience can somehow drill this truth into the head of prospective "newbies" then a lot of miss-conceived myth could be alleviate.

Shame on the RV manufacturers. In that, we all agree. But it is, what it is. The other alternative is to simply NOT purchase anything and then they will be driven out of business. I suppose, that's the only other alternative, because I really don't think the manufacturers are going to change the ways.