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Old 05-29-2012, 05:20 AM   #1
MooseMan
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Downhill Sway

Hi,

Towing ~5500 lbs loaded Passport 2650BH with a 1997 Ford Expedition, with WDH and sway bar set up by the dealer. Right now the torsion bars are a few degrees above level (instructions say + / - 10 degrees OK) Have noticed that when on downhills the rig tends to sway some. I can manage the sway with lower speed and careful braking but it is an awkward feeling.

Any suggestions? Is this just the nature of such a short wheelbase for a TV?

Thanks!
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Old 05-29-2012, 05:34 AM   #2
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What hitch setup do you have? Does the trailer sit level when towed?

The short wheelbase doesn’t help, but downhill shouldn’t be much different from level unless you’re riding the brakes or downshifted.
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Old 05-29-2012, 05:51 AM   #3
MooseMan
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EZ-Lift hitch, 800# w/ Reece friction sway control. Sits level.

It's also been windy in CO the last few days but it feels like every downhill, regardless of the gusts.



Quote:
Originally Posted by sdayman View Post
What hitch setup do you have? Does the trailer sit level when towed?

The short wheelbase doesn’t help, but downhill shouldn’t be much different from level unless you’re riding the brakes or downshifted.
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Old 05-29-2012, 03:40 PM   #4
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Well friction sway bars aren't the best, but still...

Downhill in a crosswind, being passed by a semi are the three big sway introducers. Normally if set up right, no problems.

So, did you actually weigh fully loaded TT? Did you also weigh tongue? Was tongue weight 13 to 15% of FULLY LOADED TT weight? If answer to any of above is no, start there.

If still an issue, IMHO get an Equal-i-zer or Reese Dual Cam setup with built in sway control. I prefer Equal-i-zer. Note you will need the weight numbers in order to buy the right hitch for YOUR tongue weight.
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Old 05-30-2012, 04:18 AM   #5
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OK - first I feel better knowing that the big three sway inducers are the only time I'm feeling the sway anyway. It is not happening randomly as we drive down the road. Second the sway is generally a quick motion and tends to stabilize quickly.

RE: the hitch - I have not officially had it weighted. It is quite a production to get it done. But using back-of-the-envelope math here's what I come up with:

Dry weight: ~4900 lbs
Hitch weight (dry): ~540 lbs
Loaded weight: ~5500 lbs
Hitch weight (loaded): ~640 lbs (guessing for all the crap in front storage)

At 600# on the hitch that puts us about 10.9%. At 640 lbs hitch 11.6%. I can play +/- with the math to account for water, gray/black, etc and it seems to generally hold in that ballpark. So a little light based on your comments below. Might be time to get it weighted.




Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck&gail View Post
Well friction sway bars aren't the best, but still...

Downhill in a crosswind, being passed by a semi are the three big sway introducers. Normally if set up right, no problems.

So, did you actually weigh fully loaded TT? Did you also weigh tongue? Was tongue weight 13 to 15% of FULLY LOADED TT weight? If answer to any of above is no, start there.

If still an issue, IMHO get an Equal-i-zer or Reese Dual Cam setup with built in sway control. I prefer Equal-i-zer. Note you will need the weight numbers in order to buy the right hitch for YOUR tongue weight.
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Old 05-30-2012, 04:33 AM   #6
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There's not really an adjustment for the friction bars, but the red flag here is that the dealer set up the WD. Most do not know how to set it up properly. You can do a quick check by measuring the unhitched and hitched front fender height. They should be the same or very close within 1/4" or so. Not enough weight transfer can make the front end float and it can feel like sway.
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Old 05-30-2012, 07:15 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck&gail View Post
Well friction sway bars aren't the best, but still...

Downhill in a crosswind, being passed by a semi are the three big sway introducers. Normally if set up right, no problems.

So, did you actually weigh fully loaded TT? Did you also weigh tongue? Was tongue weight 13 to 15% of FULLY LOADED TT weight? If answer to any of above is no, start there.

If still an issue, IMHO get an Equal-i-zer or Reese Dual Cam setup with built in sway control. I prefer Equal-i-zer. Note you will need the weight numbers in order to buy the right hitch for YOUR tongue weight.
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Old 05-30-2012, 06:28 PM   #8
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I'm quite happy with my setup using plain roundbar WDH and a single friction bar, once I got it dialed in. I tow a 5000 lb, 25 foot Passport 238ML with a 4x4 Tahoe with the Sachs self-leveling rear suspension and P tires. I've been able to eliminate all sway and towed over the hill to the coast this weekend with plenty of wind and grades up and down. The Tahoe is pretty short and I probably wouldn't want to tow a longer TT without a longer tow vehicle wheel base, but the Passport has spread axles and tracks very nicely.

Here's how I did it.

0.) Replaced the worn out front shocks with Rancho 9000 adjustables and aired up my back tires to max sidewall rating. Front tires I'm running stock 35psi.

1.) Dealer's set up was wrong. First of all, the TT wasn't loaded so once I added my stuff I needed to increase the WDH. Second, the self leveling shocks need you to drive a couple of miles before they level out. This set up wallowed like a dolphin.

2.) Adjusted the WDH with the shocks self-leveled to restore the original front ride height, then took a trip to the scales. Added another washer to the tilt and got the front axle weight to within 50# of stock. Now the thing rode great but the trailer still jostled a bit in the wind. Greased all the pivot points of the ball, WDH, and sway bar (but not the bar itself). Had to make a lot of steering correction to keep the thing in a straight line.

3.) Tightened the friction bar until the rig wouldn't self-straighten when turning a corner (had to steer the wheel back by hand instead of letting it spin), then backed it off a small amount. Now the whole thing drives with very little steering correction input needed, and the whole rig moves as a unit when passing a semi or getting hit by a cross breeze. It squeaked a lot when turning, but drives well. It self-centers, but just barely.

4.) Experimented with the retainer pins on the sway bar. Added an extra pin to the hitch side of the sway bar ball. (There are two slots. I have the Reese bar.) This holds the bar on the ball tighter and keeps it from "popping" while turning. Now I only get noise from the sway bar when it gets very wet, or just an occasional groan from the WDH chains.

Last weekend I drove up I-5 to and from Anacortes, Wa, and experienced all kinds of wind, rain, and traffic conditions. I didn't have a bit of sway or even wiggle, and I even made a panic stop at 45 MPH where I locked up my trailer brakes and the ABS on the Tahoe went off. It still stopped dead straight. I use a Prodigy P3 on about 6.4V of brake voltage and B1 boost setting.

You don't need a really expensive hitch unless the one you have can't be properly set up for your situation. If you can't tighten your friction sway bar enough to keep the rig from self-straightening then you need another one or a different type of hitch. You also have to adjust the sway bar tension once the pads wear a bit.
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Old 05-31-2012, 03:29 PM   #9
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If you have sway on a good day something is not setup correctly and adding a sway control device is just covering up a problem.

I have many different trailers I pull from simple sled trailers, dump trailers to large ocean boat triple axle monster. All pulled with an F350 and none, except for my Raptor are setup with a WDH. The reason I got the WDH was for the future resale or in case a friend wanted to borrow my trailer, not because I needed it. The trailer I have the most sway problem with is my small two place trailer and most times shifting the load around solves the problem.

I do not want to publicly admit how fast I have towed other then to say I have had no issues to some beyond the speed limit
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Old 05-31-2012, 06:28 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Landry View Post
There's not really an adjustment for the friction bars, but the red flag here is that the dealer set up the WD. Most do not know how to set it up properly. You can do a quick check by measuring the unhitched and hitched front fender height. They should be the same or very close within 1/4" or so. Not enough weight transfer can make the front end float and it can feel like sway.
x2. I've helped several folks correct dealer WDH setup, in all cases the TV front was way to high, not enough tension on the bars, and the "sway" was really TV oversteer from a light front end and bad camber from the front end being to high and to light.

Once the front end was back down to within 1/4" of unloaded height the problems went away and they are now happy campers.
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Old 06-01-2012, 05:01 AM   #11
MooseMan
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Thanks guys - we take it out again tonight. Hopefully it won't be high winds and I will get a better sense of what is going on. If it is easily reproduced I'll start by doing a weigh-in. I'll also plan on measuring TV front/rear height when unloaded and loaded.
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Old 06-01-2012, 01:14 PM   #12
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A couple other things to check also:

Make sure all tires are unit are aired up properly and that rear tires on TV are aired for max load.

Make sure TT is level or slightly lower than level but not nose high (many times downhill sway is caused by a nose high trailer read not enough tongue weight).

I know many don't like friction sway bars but they are better than none. Set friction tension 1 and 1/2 turns tight from point that you can just barely slide bar by hand. (Let tension off or remove bar when cutting hard to park in CG's).
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Old 06-01-2012, 08:28 PM   #13
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Ok. First, thank you all for the detailed replies. As another datapoint - I took it out again tonight and I feel like it was even more sensitive to sway than before. I was getting buffeting from pickups and panel vans. Less wind than last week. What its different this week is a few hundred less pounds in the suv, full propane tanks, two batteries and about 20 gals water-all toward the front of the trailer.

Finally found some level ground (none in my driveway) and the truck def looks sagging. Don't have a measuring tape with me but took a pic that I will post when not on my phone. Sounds like I def need to run some calculations on my hitch setup. The 800# WDH should be big enough, maybe it its at the wrong height?
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Old 06-10-2012, 06:01 PM   #14
MooseMan
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Thanks everyone for your help. A friend and I spent about 3.5 hours working on this today and I think it is definitely improved. I had to ballpark some of the figures, since how much cargo we take depends on how long we are camping, if we have to take water, if there are two batteries, cargo in back of truck, etc.

On final analysis the rear of the truck is up a full inch from where we started, and down an inch from unloaded (I have one more measurement to take). Have a drive this weekend so I will be able to test it under more realistic conditions.

Assumptions
  • Used two scales which maxed, but the working hitch weight is 600-650 lbs.
  • Camper dry weight is 4820#.
  • Assumed camping gross weight is 5300-5500#
  • Hitch/Gross ratio = 10.9% low, 12% high
  • Camper had 20 gal water, 1.5 tanks propane and 1 battery, no grey water
  • Assuming truck will have 200# of cargo in back - stood on hitch to simulate.

Observations
  • Difficulty finding perfectly level surface so we had to make our best educated guesses
  • Tongue weight is within an acceptable range
  • Started with 4 links hanging, moved to 5th link and overextended bars some, gained an inch on truck
  • Camper not level, hitch at lowest setting

Actions taken & outcome
  • Measured target height with trailer about parallel = 23” (lower by >1”)
  • Flipped hitch over
  • Added 3 small washers to push the torsion bar angle down some
  • Hooking up at 4 links more difficult but can be done
  • Truck approx 1” higher off of ground
  • Seems to drive better (drove w/ water in tank)
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Old 06-10-2012, 06:50 PM   #15
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What is the unhitched and hitched height of the front fender well?
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Old 06-10-2012, 07:10 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Landry View Post
What is the unhitched and hitched height of the front fender well?
I was measuring from the tire to the fender and didn't record the final measurement since we were in a hurry. I suspect it is between 1/4" and 1/8". Will have a chance to measure this Friday.
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Old 06-10-2012, 07:12 PM   #17
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It's easier and a little more accurate to pick a spont on the wheel well and measure it to ground.
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Old 06-10-2012, 07:16 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Landry View Post
It's easier and a little more accurate to pick a spont on the wheel well and measure it to ground.
Now that I've done it - I can see why. What's hard is finding a car's length of level ground in the Rockies
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Old 08-05-2012, 06:31 PM   #19
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EDIT: Started new thread: http://www.keystonerv.org/forums/sho...6377#post46377


Well after a few trips (including a drive through gusty Wyoming) I have become pretty comfortable with the revised hitch setup. Now only one detail - I got *blasted* by a crosswind today and racked my entire hitch! I am wondering if I had the sway bar over-tightened (bottomed out the threads per instructions, then I went another 1/2 turn b/c I knew the road I was going to be on). Everything seems intact. I will probably move the control to the other side of the hitch and try to get through the season.

Here's a link to the picture.

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B0-...1NONlkwYk1WSkU
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Old 08-09-2012, 10:40 AM   #20
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Just my two cents, but you are asking your hitch and sway control device to do too much with your current set up. Like you, I tow with an Expedition. SUV's inherently have softer suspensions and shorter wheelbases than trucks so that contributes to the sway situation.

Your sway control device is essentially dampening the sway. It is not eliminating it at the source. This is why guys like LeeMedic and I bit the bullet and invested in the Hensley Arrow. Yes, it is exponentially more expensive than your current hitch (I paid about $2k for a reconditioned Arrow direct from Hensley) but it is really just a relative cost in my book. My Bullet and Expedition set me back well over $60k. The added cost of the Hensely Arrow vs the guarantee that sway will be eliminated is a no brainer for me. The fact that my family (and fellow travelers) and equipment are protected from a potentially life threatening disaster is a bonus.

Again, just my two cents but given what is happening with your current setup, you are lucky you didn't have an accident.
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