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Old 01-23-2020, 06:25 AM   #1
Frank G
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Towing by the Numbers

Every automotive manufacture selling vehicles in north America publicize the parameters that a vehicle is designed to operate within. This may include all the load weights and the ability to tow weights including the frontal square footage allowable of the towed unit.

My question is; on this forum the GVW of the vehicle is sacred and never to be exceed and the allowable towing weights are totally dismissed as total lies and never achievable. Why? Were they not determined by the same engineers? Approved by the same corporate Lawyers? I do not know how you can pick and choose witch numbers are good or bad. Do you know something they don't.
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Old 01-23-2020, 06:45 AM   #2
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You have to meet all the numbers, not just pick and choose which ones to hit. If you don't do it that way, then you yourself are picking which ones you can and cannot live with arbitrarily.

The final decision is always yours. If you ask here, you are going to get the standard line of stay under all the numbers. There is no need to argue otherwise or try to convince someone to change their mind. If you agree, so be it. If you disagree, so be it. Pretty simple really.
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Old 01-23-2020, 07:10 AM   #3
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For our set up, the numbers work out pretty close. A little over 2k payload, GVWR 9k, GCWR 20k. The GVWR of the Cougar is 10.3k with a pin weight of 1.5k.
Our actual weights are a little lower but you can see we are close to the max weights for ur Ram 2500.
As it was explained to me by an automotive engineer friend of mine (he dumbed it down quite a bit for me), the GVWR of the TV is based on the load carrying values used in the frame design and axle ratings, the powertrain capabilities, the braking capabilities and the recommended tire load ratings.
The GCWR is calculated based on the same engineering as above, except the trailer is now factored as "rolling weight" not carried weight, since most of the trailer weight is being carried by the trailer axles and tires. The trailer (over 3k pounds) is also required to have it's own braking system.
For our Ram, the Trailer Maximum weight is stated at 13k. We can't get to that number without violating the GCWR and very probably the payload rating using our fifth wheel. I suppose we could get close though if the 13k trailer were a bumper pull So I'm suggesting the maximum towing weight, while defendable, is really a marketing pipedream.
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Old 01-23-2020, 07:17 AM   #4
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are there more tow vehicle / tow weight discussions in the middle of winter than during camping season? Motorcycle guys used to call this phenom PMS (parked motorcycle syndrome).
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Old 01-23-2020, 07:47 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by ctbruce View Post
You have to meet all the numbers, not just pick and choose which ones to hit. If you don't do it that way, then you yourself are picking which ones you can and cannot live with arbitrarily.

The final decision is always yours. If you ask here, you are going to get the standard line of stay under all the numbers. There is no need to argue otherwise or try to convince someone to change their mind. If you agree, so be it. If you disagree, so be it. Pretty simple really.
I am not suggesting any numbers are exceeded. When site team members write statements like this,

"max tow capacity is just "paper talk" so be careful."

I question the validity of the statement.
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Old 01-23-2020, 08:26 AM   #6
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This is rocket science. Nothing sacred or you pick and choose.
CGVWR, GVWR and each axle on the TV has a GVWR. RV has GVWR says the engineers are the max. why is that difficult? We are lucky all that is now on printed on every vehicle.
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Old 01-23-2020, 08:27 AM   #7
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I think the reason the max tow number is questioned is because it is not achievable with a typical towable RV set up. The max tow number is usually the empty weight of the truck (maybe a 150 pounds is added for the driver) subtracted from the GCWR. Maybe a guy who pulls a trailer for work and it’s just him in an otherwise empty truck could tow the max trailer without being over GCWR, but an RV is a different story.

When loaded for camping the truck is usually much closer to its GVWR than the empty weight and so it is impossible to tow the “max tow number” without exceeding the GCWR.
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Old 01-23-2020, 08:39 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank G View Post
I am not suggesting any numbers are exceeded. When site team members write statements like this,

"max tow capacity is just "paper talk" so be careful."

I question the validity of the statement.
Usually if all the numbers are close to max they probably don't/won't equal the max tow number, 2 + 2 in this case my not equal 4 (with engineers it doesn't have to equal 4), therefore "paper talk". Same as "dry" RV weights, they are also "paper talk" in order to sell to unsuspecting buyers that haven't done their home work.
On some/most things in regards to RVs I truly believe that there's several on here smarter than the engineers, at least they have experience where the majority of the engineers DO NOT.
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Old 01-23-2020, 08:44 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank G View Post
I am not suggesting any numbers are exceeded. When site team members write statements like this,

"max tow capacity is just "paper talk" so be careful."

I question the validity of the statement.
I haven't seen that specific comment, but I'll agree that "max tow capacity" is related to a combination of factors (contained in the other max limits).

As an example, if you subtract the GVWR from the GCWR, you "should get" the max trailer weight (MTWR)... You don't. What you get is the unloaded tow vehicle weight. The GCWR is a "fluid number" limited by not only trailer weight, but also by tow vehicle weight at the time of towing. If you add 500 pounds of cargo to the truck bed and add 500 pounds of passengers to the truck cab, you must deduct 1000 pounds from the maximum trailer weight in order to stay at/under the GCWR.

So, someone traveling alone can tow a trailer "up to the GCWR" while someone with the added 1000 pounds of cargo/passengers can only tow "up to the GCWR minus that extra weight. So "Max Trailer Weight" is not a "static figure" but changes based on the tow vehicle weight, payload weight and trailer weight. All the factors must be included.

Here's an example from the Ford 2019 Towing Guide: https://www.fleet.ford.com/resources...e_r2_Dec21.pdf

Go to page 23, first line is F250 6.2L gas truck with 3.73 axle ratio.
GCWR 19500
GVWR 10000
Max TLR 12500

Doing the math, 19500 - 12500 = 7000 (the empty weight of tow vehicle)
Doing the math, 19500 - 10000 = 9500 (the maximum trailer weight at tow vehicle GVW of 10,000 pounds)

The GCWR is a "fixed rating" that depends on two changing values, the tow vehicle weight and the trailer weight. If you are at "maximum GCWR" and change either value, it limits/affects the other value.

Think of it as having a 1 gallon empty bowl and two 3/4 gallon jugs. You can fill the bowl "up to 1 gallon" with any combination from the two jugs, but you can't put 1.5 gallons into the bowl by "maxing out the capacity from both jugs. It's the same with the relationship between GCWR, GVWR and Max Trailer Weight.
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Old 01-23-2020, 09:57 AM   #10
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I made the comment Frank G referenced and I stand by it. I have looked at countless RV/TV combinations and if you load the truck/trailer like most folks you are going to exceed one of the other limits first; payload, rawr or gcwr. The max tow rating is the last thing generally you are going to exceed.

Now, what do you read on every brochure, every webpage etc. for each of the Big 3? Max towing ability...EVERY one. They are starting to mention payload but nothing like all the hype about max towing capacity. Why do they do that? It's the biggest number they can put out there and tout to the world; they don't give a whit about the other numbers; that is on you, the purchaser, to figure out.

Here is a link from GM about the new 2020 HD trucks. Note that the max tow rating is mentioned FOUR times in the first 2 pages; not a word about another weight restriction. To a person new to towing this sounds really good and is misleading. Why? The manufacturer intends it to be that way...it's just "paper talk so be careful".

https://media.gm.com/content/media/u...ct%20Guide.pdf
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Old 01-23-2020, 12:00 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by sourdough View Post
I made the comment Frank G referenced and I stand by it. I have looked at countless RV/TV combinations and if you load the truck/trailer like most folks you are going to exceed one of the other limits first; payload, rawr or gcwr. The max tow rating is the last thing generally you are going to exceed.

Now, what do you read on every brochure, every webpage etc. for each of the Big 3? Max towing ability...EVERY one. They are starting to mention payload but nothing like all the hype about max towing capacity. Why do they do that? It's the biggest number they can put out there and tout to the world; they don't give a whit about the other numbers; that is on you, the purchaser, to figure out.

Here is a link from GM about the new 2020 HD trucks. Note that the max tow rating is mentioned FOUR times in the first 2 pages; not a word about another weight restriction. To a person new to towing this sounds really good and is misleading. Why? The manufacturer intends it to be that way...it's just "paper talk so be careful".

https://media.gm.com/content/media/u...ct%20Guide.pdf
I do find this interesting, a lot of TV advertising pushes Max Tow Rating, then one goes to an RV show and all the trailers have Dry Weight Listed! That is a real bad combination of numbers.
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Old 01-23-2020, 12:09 PM   #12
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I do find this interesting, a lot of TV advertising pushes Max Tow Rating, then one goes to an RV show and all the trailers have Dry Weight Listed! That is a real bad combination of numbers.


Russ, you are absolutely correct! For a person that doesn't know it is a bad combo indeed....and that's what the sales folks, auto and RV, want. By choosing those numbers on either end it opens up more truck/trailer combos than if you use realistic numbers. I have been looking at LOTS of trailers. Every salesman can either quote the dry weight, or go to the sticker and point it out. GVW does not come to mind for them. That's all I ask about and I am the one that has to go to the sticker and figure it out usually. Keystone lists dry weight and carrying weight but not gvw. Many of the sales folks don't even know how to arrive at that number. Sad - for the sales person and the potential, unknowing buyer..
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Old 02-02-2020, 08:32 AM   #13
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Also, remember there can be a big difference between what you can tow (hook up and get moving) and what you can safely stop in an emergency situation.

Trailer brakes are not self adjusting, as you travel and use the brakes the pads wear. As you wear down the brakes there is less force applied. Don't let an emergency stopping situation be the time you discover you should have tested and adjusted your brakes....
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Old 02-02-2020, 08:44 AM   #14
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A few comments here. Tow ratings for any truck are somewhat, mostly, irrelevant when it comes to 5th Wheel type Camping Trailers And of course the reason is that those types of trailers (5th Wheel Camping trailers) will produce, on average, 20% of the trailer's weight as Pin Weight. That average pin weight number will of course be counted as "Payload" on your truck and must be calculated when you are determining if you truck is big enough, heavy duty enough to tow the trailer in question. An example might be....a trailer with a GVWR of 16,000 lbs. You already know that it is very likely that if that trailer is loaded to that 16,000 lbs, or there about, you are going to be seeing approx. 3200 lbs of pin weight. It could be slightly less, it more likely will be a bit more, but every trailer is different, so the 20% calculation number is often used. Now let's take a flatbed/utility type trailer and load it where the trailer and it's payload is 20,000 lbs. Depending on where you put the load on the trailer, you may have roughly 4000 lbs of pin weight being produced by that load on that trailer. So let's move the weight more to the rear of the trailer and now you find that the pin weight might be 3500 lbs. Move it rearward even more and it might be 3000 lbs. The point is this. 5th Wheel Camping trailers, generally speaking do NOT allow the flexibility to move the loaded weight more to the rear, as a flatbed/utility trailer does. In other words, it is what it is. Of course there can be ways to move some of the camping trailer's weight around, but not nearly as much as a flatbed/utility trailer........so we generally use the accepted "guesstimate" of 20% of the 5th Wheel Camper's weight as what the approx. pin weight will be. All guesses so far right? So do yourself a favor and weigh the rig at a Certified scale and you will know for sure what you have. The result of what I just described above is this...........Most times with a 5th Wheel Camping Type Trailer, you will run out of payload capacity long before you get to the truck's rated Towing Capacity....that's just the nature of the beast.

Manufacturer's Pin Weight Numbers.......First let me say, they are NOT trying to lie to anyone (mostly). Those numbers are stated almost exclusively as an EMPTY WEIGHT for the trailer....as it was built. So let's say your trailer weighs 10,000 lbs empty weight. You have 3000 lbs of cargo capacity, so the GVWR of that trailer is 13,000 lbs. If the trailer is empty, the pin weight is going to be approx. 2000 lbs. If the trailer is fully loaded, the pin weight is going to jump up to approx. 2600 lbs. So, as a manufacturer of the trailer, the only "KNOWN" number is the empty weight and the amount of pin weight that it produces on your truck when it is at it's empty weight. They have no clue how lightly or how heavily you will load that trailer when you purchase it....and further, they have NO IDEA HOW you will load that trailer after you purchase it. All they can tell you is that the trailer (in my example) should never weigh more than 13,000 lbs and the resultant pin weight is unknown because of the reasons I just stated. So there are some answers for two things.
1. The reason a trucks towing capacity probably is irrelevant when it comes to towing 5th Wheel Camping Trailers
2. The reasons that an "Empty" Pin weight number is given in the trailer manufacturer's brochure.

Last Comment: The Order of Overload Progression on a truck
When loading a truck, whether it is for towing a camper, hauling a load of lumber or bricks or dirt, the order of progression to an overload condition is as follows.
1. Load or put enough weight on the truck and you will eventually reach the available payload capacity of the truck. It's pretty simple math. The GVWR of the truck, minus the weight of the truck before loading it = the available payload that you have to work with.
2. Once you reach that available payload weight number, you are now at the GVWR for that truck. Any additional weight added at that point is causing two things to be true. A. Payload rating overload. B GVWR of the truck to be exceeded or overloaded.
3. Next in line for overload progression is the Axle Weight Ratings. If you continue to keep adding weight to the truck, you will eventually reach the Axle or Axles Weight Ratings. It could be just the rear axle or if enough weight is added to the truck it could be Both Axles are overloaded.
4. Tire load rating numbers. If even more weight is added to the truck and you have exceeded the Payload, GVWR, and the axle and/or the axles ratings, you will eventually exceed the Tire Load Capacity ratings, and again, this could be both front and rear, but more likely the rear tires, as weight added to the truck is normally in the bed or rear half of the truck.

Hope this helps explain some of the issues raised in this discussion.

Oops.......one more thought on this. Every single rating that the truck has, in regard to it's towing capacity and weight capacities should be followed....in other words, not exceeded. That includes Payload, FAWR, RAWR, GCVWR, Tow Rating, and Tire Load Capacity. And remember, the tire load capacity is a number that requires that the tire be inflated to the tire manufacturer's psi number that is stamped on the sidewall of the tire. That number is not just the maximum inflation psi number, that number also is the number that will ALLOW a tire to provide it's rated load capacity. This of course is assuming that the tire is in new and/or very good condition, and we all know that as a tire ages, the ability of that tire to provide the Tire Load rating, lessens over time.
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Old 02-02-2020, 08:51 AM   #15
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Also, remember there can be a big difference between what you can tow (hook up and get moving) and what you can safely stop in an emergency situation.

Trailer brakes are not self adjusting, as you travel and use the brakes the pads wear. As you wear down the brakes there is less force applied. Don't let an emergency stopping situation be the time you discover you should have tested and adjusted your brakes....
Actually more and more trailers are coming with forward self adjusting brakes. If your trailer doesn't have them, You can change them out for self adjusting brakes. I have done quite a few, and if your really want stopping power change out the electric for hydraulic (disc) brakes.
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Old 02-02-2020, 08:59 AM   #16
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I wanted to add my two cents without getting into definitions, just the big picture. The engineers design the tow vehicles and sign off on what the numbers are in order to be safe for you and the travelling public. The Manufacturers guides are with a specific build within that truck and usually are skewed with less options in order to achieve higher numbers. Each specific truck has its own actual numbers posted in the door jam. Many people either already own a tow vehicle and do not purchase a trailer that t stays within the actual numbers and are trying to justify towing outside of those numbers. I just wonder how many people would like it if everyone disregarded the laws of the road because they think it is safe? I am not naïve to think people don't speed on the road (or tow within the numbers), but do you think I am going to recommend that we all speed? Back to the towing numbers and specs. The best advice before purchasing a trailer and/or a truck is to research the numbers, and buy accordingly. Preferably within the legal specs. And if you don't understand what all the terms mean, there are many videos available, web sites and forums. It is your responsibility, not rv salesperson, truck salesperson or someone else. Thanks for letting me rant.
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Old 02-02-2020, 09:02 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Frank G View Post
Every automotive manufacture selling vehicles in north America publicize the parameters that a vehicle is designed to operate within. This may include all the load weights and the ability to tow weights including the frontal square footage allowable of the towed unit.

My question is; on this forum the GVW of the vehicle is sacred and never to be exceed and the allowable towing weights are totally dismissed as total lies and never achievable. Why? Were they not determined by the same engineers? Approved by the same corporate Lawyers? I do not know how you can pick and choose witch numbers are good or bad. Do you know something they don't.
Just believe what the salesmen tells you and forget about it. (Just Kidding) but the truth is many will tell you "you an pull that no problem" I have had them tell me that when I was looking at 5 ers and had a 1500 Ram.
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Old 02-02-2020, 09:09 AM   #18
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One of the "problems" or questions I have struggled with is the GVWR vs. Max axle weights on my F350. For example, my 2018 F350 CC SB SRW Lariat 4x4 diesel has a GVWR of 11,500 lbs. My door sticker lists my cargo weight as 3,608 lbs.
The axle ratings are:
Front GAWR: 5,600 lbs
Rear GAWR: 7,230 lbs
If you add those it comes to 12,830 lbs, so why is my GVWR 11,500? If I am slightly over that 11,500, but well under the axle ratings when I hook up our Montana fiver where do I stand legally? Color me confused.
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Old 02-02-2020, 09:15 AM   #19
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i think one of the hardest parts for most folks is determining the actual cargo weight in the TV, the RV as well as fluid weights for both. you can look at all the "paper talk" and do all the math but until you actually either weigh everything AND do all the math OR go over the scales you will never really know for sure. whats the point of looking at the numbers if you dont really know what the cargo itself weighs? and how many people actually do that? i myself did weigh everything and took into account fluid weights and did the math but like most people i am guilty of NOT updating those values as I accumulate more stuff in the trailer and truck. to add to the confusion some dealers say mfg dry weight includes fluids and some say no it doesnt (it actually doesnt). 500+lbs of fluids is a BIG difference if you are close to GCWR.
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Old 02-02-2020, 09:16 AM   #20
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There was a good thread on another forum last week about how do the commercial hot shot rigs get away with the loads they carry because they are usually over the door sticker payload ratings. So it looks like it's a different ballgame when max registered gvw and DOT scales come into play.
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