Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×
 

Go Back   Keystone RV Forums > Keystone Tech Forums > Towing
Click Here to Login

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 02-07-2021, 07:11 AM   #1
SupaDav
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Bethlehem
Posts: 14
New Member 5th wheel hope for my Ram 2nd gen?

Thanks for the add

I am considering upgrading from a TT to a used 5vr ( 30-32 ft ). Would you mind looking over my numbers and commenting? Could a 5th wheel work safely with my truck?

Truck: 98 Ram 2500 QC 2WD, shortbed, automatic (47RE), 5.9L Cummins, 3.55 rear, factory trailer towing pkg w/ air bags, LT265/75/R16 Tires
240,000 Mi.

Off Door Sticker:
GVWR: 8800
GAWR Front:4410
GAWR Rear: 6084

My CAT scale #'s:
Steer Axle: 3800
Drive Axle: 2840
Curb Wt: 6640 (Full Fuel, Driver onboard )

My Math:

GVWR 8800 minus 6640 curb wt minus 160 for 2nd pass. minus 200 for misc stuff in truck minus 200 5th wheel hitch = 1600# Left over for Pin weight


Using 20% for Pin Weight means a 8000# LOADED 5th wheel?
Using 25% for Pin Weight means a 6400# LOADED 5th wheel?

Are these calc's realistic/close?
What are your experienced recommendations? ( and, no, I can't afford a 1 ton truck AND a new to me 5er )

Thanks for any thoughts/suggestions. Great Site
SupaDav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2021, 07:23 AM   #2
markcee
Senior Member
 
markcee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Sun City West
Posts: 907
Do you have a particular 5th wheel in mind? I'm not sure you will find something in that size range with an 8000 lb GVWR.

Even the shortest Cougar 1/2 ton 5th wheel (23MLS) at 26'10" has a GVWR of 10K. Dry weight on this one is 7100. Add batteries, propane, liquids and your gear and I don't think you can keep it under 8K.....and it's 5' shorter than what you are interested in.
__________________
2022 Rockwood Signature 8324SB
2019 F350, SRW, 6.2L, 4.30 gears
Sold: 2020 Keystone Cougar '1/2 ton' TT, 29RLKWE
markcee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2021, 07:39 AM   #3
chuckster57
Site Team
 
chuckster57's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Modesto
Posts: 20,235
Welcome to the forum

200 for the hitch may be a bit high unless your looking at a slider. Otherwise, yeah those are realistic numbers. There are several brands that advertise 1/2 ton towable, your doing it right by starting with the tow vehicle. When you look at trailers, go straight to the federal sticker ( should be on the drivers side near the front) and use the GVWR not the dry or shipping weight.
__________________

2012 Copper Canyon 273FWRET being towed by a 1994 Ford F350 CC,LB,Dually diesel.
Airlift 5000 bags, Prodigy brake control, 5 gauges on the pillar.Used to tow a '97 Jayco 323RKS.

Now an RVIA registered tech. Retired from Law enforcement in 2008 after 25+ yrs.
chuckster57 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2021, 07:53 AM   #4
SupaDav
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Bethlehem
Posts: 14
Markcee
Thanks for the reply. I guess I'm a bit confused.... When you replied "I'm not sure you will find something in that size range with an 8000 lb GVWR." were you referring to the GVWR of the 5th wheel, or my truck???
SupaDav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2021, 08:02 AM   #5
SupaDav
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Bethlehem
Posts: 14
Chuckster
Thanks for the reply. So, with a 1600# payload leftover for the pin, that means an 8000# trailer, LOADED? assuming a 20% pin weight? With no margin leftover on truck GVWR. Not to put u on the spot, but are those #'s in the "safe range"?

BTW Noticed you are a former LEO. Thanks for your service. I'm a retired FF/Para
SupaDav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2021, 08:06 AM   #6
markcee
Senior Member
 
markcee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Sun City West
Posts: 907
Quote:
Originally Posted by SupaDav View Post
Markcee
Thanks for the reply. I guess I'm a bit confused.... When you replied "I'm not sure you will find something in that size range with an 8000 lb GVWR." were you referring to the GVWR of the 5th wheel, or my truck???
5th wheel. I was looking at your referenced calculations for an 8K or 6.6K loaded 5th wheel based on pin weight %.
__________________
2022 Rockwood Signature 8324SB
2019 F350, SRW, 6.2L, 4.30 gears
Sold: 2020 Keystone Cougar '1/2 ton' TT, 29RLKWE
markcee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2021, 08:20 AM   #7
chuckster57
Site Team
 
chuckster57's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Modesto
Posts: 20,235
Quote:
Originally Posted by SupaDav View Post
Chuckster
Thanks for the reply. So, with a 1600# payload leftover for the pin, that means an 8000# trailer, LOADED? assuming a 20% pin weight? With no margin leftover on truck GVWR. Not to put u on the spot, but are those #'s in the "safe range"?

BTW Noticed you are a former LEO. Thanks for your service. I'm a retired FF/Para
Congrats on your retirement also. What some consider "safe" may not be what others think. I like a margin of safety, for example when I bought my truck in 2009 and had to install a hitch, I knew I was going to put one in rated for way more than the trailer Then I downsized trailers.

In this new sue happy world we live in now, I wouldnt chance anything that might give some idiot a chance to take away what I spend YEARS to get, JMHO
__________________

2012 Copper Canyon 273FWRET being towed by a 1994 Ford F350 CC,LB,Dually diesel.
Airlift 5000 bags, Prodigy brake control, 5 gauges on the pillar.Used to tow a '97 Jayco 323RKS.

Now an RVIA registered tech. Retired from Law enforcement in 2008 after 25+ yrs.
chuckster57 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2021, 08:57 AM   #8
sourdough
Site Team
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: W. Texas
Posts: 17,599
OP you're doing the right thing, and a great job, trying to figure the equation out before you jump in. Lots of folks don't and find themselves in over their heads with no way out.

Your numbers look pretty good, great job scaling the truck - no worrying about that sticker in the driver door! Some thoughts;

I'm thinking the 200lbs. misc. in the truck is too conservative. I base that on the "stuff" I've carried in all my trucks towing a trailer. By the time you figure tools (heavy), compressor (really needed), bbq (can't leave home without it!), bottle jacks, blocks....and the list goes on, 200lbs. isn't going to get you far. OR, you will do as I used to have to do when overweight - leave all the stuff you wanted to go camping with at home which really wasn't any fun at all in the end.

You're figuring 20% pin weight which is at the lower end IMO; I've seen 5ths with pins in the low 20s. You might just up that to 21% to give you just a bit of breathing room.

If you're going to buy and older trailer watch the weights on them. Many of the older trailers did not have the newer technology, light weight materials in use now. Hopefully whatever you look at will have the sticker on the driver front corner of the RV to give you some help.

You said you were looking for a 30-32' trailer; I don't think that will happen, I've certainly not seen one. Just for some thought; maybe take 1500# as what's left for a pin vs the 1600# you were looking at. Not much but gives you a bit of latitude on what's loaded in the truck. With that number you would be looking at a 5th wheel somewhere in the range of 7200lbs. gvw.

You've done some good, thoughtful work trying to do this right. I know that's not what you want to hear and I wish it was something else. Now if you can find a trailer that fits that kind of weight profile that would be super, otherwise I'm afraid it would be too big a stretch IMO.
__________________
Danny and Susan, wife of 56 years
2019 Ram 3500 Laramie CC SWB SB 6.4 4x4 4.10
2020 Montana High Country 331RL
sourdough is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2021, 09:33 AM   #9
SupaDav
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Bethlehem
Posts: 14
Sourdough, thanks for the reply. Interesting you should comment "no worrying about that sticker in the driver door!"

In my owners manual it lists my truck "config" "2500 HD 4x2 club cab Auto 4 spd OD HD" with a 4.10 rear @ 8800# GVWR

But, it lists MY actual truck setup ""2500 HD 4x2 club cab Auto 4 spd OD HD" w/ 3.55 rear @ 10,500#

But my door sticker reads 8800# GVWR......?

Does this make sense? Can rear axle ratio make that much of a diff?
If so, it would increase my payload cap substantially.

Thanks,

Dave.
SupaDav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2021, 11:15 AM   #10
jasin1
Senior Member
 
jasin1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Upper Chesapeake Bay
Posts: 4,804
It can be several thousand pounds difference in towing capacity between 3:55 to 4:10 gears...4:10 having a higher towing capacity. One thing you may want to consider is looking for a nice used 3500. You have 240000 miles on your truck and while the diesel may run forever, the suspension and other mechanicals are getting a little “long in the tooth”. I just traded my 2012 ram 2500 diesel Laramie,I only had around 98000 miles and it ran great. My problem was other parts started wearing out. It has many different ujoints on it that started to wear out. I had to have the whole front drive shaft rebuilt and only used four wheel I hand full of times( still spins whether used or not).
The reliability and capability of your truck is a big piece of the puzzle and choosing a bigger truck will open up your possibilities for choosing a fifth wheel. I know you have a 2wd but springs and rear and tranny all have some wear I would imagine
__________________
2020 Cougar 315 RLS
2020 Ram 3500 6.7HO 4.10 Dually Aisin
jasin1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2021, 11:40 AM   #11
jasin1
Senior Member
 
jasin1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Upper Chesapeake Bay
Posts: 4,804
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasin1 View Post
It can be several thousand pounds difference in towing capacity between 3:55 to 4:10 gears...4:10 having a higher towing capacity. One thing you may want to consider is looking for a nice used 3500. You have 240000 miles on your truck and while the diesel may run forever, the suspension and other mechanicals are getting a little “long in the tooth”. I just traded my 2012 ram 2500 diesel Laramie,I only had around 98000 miles and it ran great. My problem was other parts started wearing out. It has many different ujoints on it that started to wear out. I had to have the whole front drive shaft rebuilt and only used four wheel I hand full of times( still spins whether used or not).
The reliability and capability of your truck is a big piece of the puzzle and choosing a bigger truck will open up your possibilities for choosing a fifth wheel. I know you have a 2wd but springs and rear and tranny all have some wear I would imagine
And to add to that ... the towing specs,horsepower,torque and other specifications are based on when the truck was new..20+ years ago while the numbers don’t change technically because of age...they do change in real world tests I would imagine
__________________
2020 Cougar 315 RLS
2020 Ram 3500 6.7HO 4.10 Dually Aisin
jasin1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2021, 11:40 AM   #12
sourdough
Site Team
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: W. Texas
Posts: 17,599
Quote:
Originally Posted by SupaDav View Post
Sourdough, thanks for the reply. Interesting you should comment "no worrying about that sticker in the driver door!"

In my owners manual it lists my truck "config" "2500 HD 4x2 club cab Auto 4 spd OD HD" with a 4.10 rear @ 8800# GVWR

But, it lists MY actual truck setup ""2500 HD 4x2 club cab Auto 4 spd OD HD" w/ 3.55 rear @ 10,500#

But my door sticker reads 8800# GVWR......?

Does this make sense? Can rear axle ratio make that much of a diff?
If so, it would increase my payload cap substantially.

Thanks,

Dave.

The information posted on the door sticker is what you go by - it is directly specific to yourtruck. Printed material in brochures, manuals etc. aren't directly specific to your truck.
__________________
Danny and Susan, wife of 56 years
2019 Ram 3500 Laramie CC SWB SB 6.4 4x4 4.10
2020 Montana High Country 331RL
sourdough is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2021, 12:02 PM   #13
SupaDav
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Bethlehem
Posts: 14
Thanks Jasin. All good, valid points :-)
SupaDav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2021, 12:12 PM   #14
SupaDav
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Bethlehem
Posts: 14
Understood Sourdough....
It looks like a 5er is probably out of my reach with my existing TV. Next step: Travel Trailer
Trucks owners manual limits tongue capacity to 900#. Is there some way to work backwards off this 900# number to determine what size TT we could look at that would include some margin of safety factor in the tongue weight? As an example: I've seen TT's with dry tongue weights of, say, 750#. How do I figure out how much the "stuff" I put in TT and truck increases tongue weight? Or put another way, how much weight could I add to TV and TT and still have somewhat of a safe tow? Thanks
SupaDav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2021, 12:25 PM   #15
JRTJH
Site Team
 
JRTJH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Gaylord
Posts: 26,839
The basic calculations I prefer to use is the Travel Trailer GVW (not dry weight or shipping weight) and use 11% of the GVW, then add the weight of the WD hitch assembly.

Example: A trailer with a GVW of 7500 pounds x11% = 825 + 125 for the hitch would be an "approximate receiver weight of 950 pounds.

If you know which hitch you're going to buy, look up that specific weight to add. If you're "shopping and don't know which hitch, I'd recommend using 100-125 as a "rough estimate".

You'll also still need to keep the total payload below the trucks yellow sticker payload to stay under the GVW for the tow vehicle without overloading either the front axle or the rear axle ratings.... It's a "consider them all and stay below them all" approach....
__________________
John



2015 F250 6.7l 4x4
2014 Cougar X Lite 27RKS
JRTJH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2021, 01:31 PM   #16
sourdough
Site Team
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: W. Texas
Posts: 17,599
Quote:
Originally Posted by SupaDav View Post
Understood Sourdough....
It looks like a 5er is probably out of my reach with my existing TV. Next step: Travel Trailer
Trucks owners manual limits tongue capacity to 900#. Is there some way to work backwards off this 900# number to determine what size TT we could look at that would include some margin of safety factor in the tongue weight? As an example: I've seen TT's with dry tongue weights of, say, 750#. How do I figure out how much the "stuff" I put in TT and truck increases tongue weight? Or put another way, how much weight could I add to TV and TT and still have somewhat of a safe tow? Thanks

John has given you good advice on trying to work into the weights, but, are you sure on that 900# limitation on your receiver? Is that 900# WITH a weight distribution hitch? Seems awfully light for a 3/4 ton truck.
__________________
Danny and Susan, wife of 56 years
2019 Ram 3500 Laramie CC SWB SB 6.4 4x4 4.10
2020 Montana High Country 331RL
sourdough is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2021, 05:30 AM   #17
SupaDav
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Bethlehem
Posts: 14
thanks JRTJH

Your numbers are fairly close to my situation. If I use a 7000# GVWR x 11% = 770#
770# + 125# for hitch = 895# tongue weight. If I use 800# as a figure for all the stuff I put in the TT, that would mean a dry wt. of TT @ 6200# MOL?
SupaDav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2021, 05:33 AM   #18
SupaDav
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Bethlehem
Posts: 14
Sourdough-

Thought that Tongue weight # looked light, I thought this beast could tow much more.
Trying to get a pic of the Owners Manual posted, Looks like I will have to post as a new reply to thread.
SupaDav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2021, 05:47 AM   #19
chuckster57
Site Team
 
chuckster57's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Modesto
Posts: 20,235
Take a pic of the receiver on your truck. It will have a decal on it with all the weight limits for that receiver on your truck.
__________________

2012 Copper Canyon 273FWRET being towed by a 1994 Ford F350 CC,LB,Dually diesel.
Airlift 5000 bags, Prodigy brake control, 5 gauges on the pillar.Used to tow a '97 Jayco 323RKS.

Now an RVIA registered tech. Retired from Law enforcement in 2008 after 25+ yrs.
chuckster57 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2021, 05:50 AM   #20
SupaDav
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Bethlehem
Posts: 14
Reply for Sourdough

Thought that tongue weight # was a little low, but here is the owners manual specs.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_6475.jpg
Views:	131
Size:	187.8 KB
ID:	31893  
SupaDav is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
5th wheel, new member

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by the Keystone RV Company or any of its affiliates in any way. Keystone RV® is a registered trademark of the Keystone RV Company.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 08:33 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.