Towing in the snow

[rhagfo]

Well the more times I watch the video, seems like they just started the downhill and was gaining speed, he should have been manually applying the trailer brakes to dump speed. The worst thing it is very hard to judge grade steepness on a video.

[Ken / Claudia]

I will say that I think we all know the feeling of driving through a curve on a road with normal traction and reasonable speed for the road.
When you have a loss of traction, pulling a trailer or not. Everything you do to change speed or steering has a real dynamic effect in what happens. Even the best drivers can still spin out or slide across a roadway.
Several years ago while elk hunting and driving on snow and ice for 5 days on the same route to and from the ranch. On the 6 day the 20 mph speed through a curve was too fast. I slid across the narrow gravel road and into the ditch. I ended up with the drivers side of the truck on the ground. The f350 was drivable but had about 8,000 dollars damage.
In my case I tried to apply more power in 4x4, but I floored it and spun the tires causing more traction loss and forced the truck to continue sliding. A little throttle may have helped or saved me. None or too much still put me in the ditch. Driving into the curve slower to begin with was the only sure safe way.

[jasin1]

Originally Posted by Halcyon

Looking again at the video and what you said, I believe you are right on. No power to pull, and no slowing down = uncontrolled mass in the direction it was heading. I wouldn’t have thought of that exact combination of effects. Since I have hauled my rig up hill in a snowstorm at night (west side of Eisenhower pass, AKA “IKE challenge” on TFLTruck.com), I will take this new knowledge with me if it happens again.

Thanks and yes I’m by no means an expert on any of this lol. I wish I could take my fifth wheel out to a parking lot in the snow to see how it responds if I ever get caught in it but.......that would put me in the snow driving to and from and may be counterproductive. I’m just going to follow everyone’s suggestions and rely on their expertise if it ever comes up

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by Ken / Claudia

Just slow down, that curve had a warning sign that said 40 mph. On a video it is hard to tell the real speed. But I will guess more like 50-55, by watching the roadside pass by.
There appeared to be a short in the RV lights. Those were not blinking do to braking and no brake lights ever came on the trailer. Did they even have working RV brakes?
Yes, I was not there, but seeing what I could of the conditions of road and lack of packed snow. I would not have chained up, just slowed down.
I will sum it all up driver error.
Edit: I posted #2 and was unable to finish my information and it came up as post #4 when I was done.

So about 15th time watching the video, I noticed that the lights were not on until 25 seconds into the video. Then they were on continually to the slide into the ditch. Is this guy a left footed breaker, and was just resting heavily on the pedal or was he ridding the brakes the whole way??
It was a bit slick, but the chase vehicle didn't seem to have issues stopping, was the 5er and TV unable to slow??

[Sarge2]

When I first saw that video surfing thru YouTube, I thought "darn, he's driving awfully fast for the road conditions"... Maybe just the cop in me but when that truck started to lose it and the trailer was pushing him around, it kind of confirmed that he was in fact driving way too fast for the road conditions.. jmho

[spicercars]

Originally Posted by Sarge2

When I first saw that video surfing thru YouTube, I thought "darn, he's driving awfully fast for the road conditions"... Maybe just the cop in me but when that truck started to lose it and the trailer was pushing him around, it kind of confirmed that he was in fact driving way too fast for the road conditions.. jmho

Exactly driving way to fast for the conditions. Doesn't take much to analyze this one.

[ewbldavis]

I agree - driving too fast for conditions. Sleet like that definitely makes for a slippery road, but it does seem like he was moving along swiftly.

Seems he simply plunged the pedal to the floor when things went south - makes me wonder if manual trailer braking as mentioned might have saved it - or at least helped.

[Northofu1]

I have never towed a trailer in snow or ice. I have commuted over a million kilometres over a 26 yr period. The section of hiway 400 from Orillia to Cookstown can be treacherous in winter. This area is in a snow belt that can easily rival the Buffalo area.

I can't see how pumping breaks, gently applying them, or relying on the trailer to help stop would even work. As he is heading on a slight downgrade way too fast with what I can only assume were all season radials on truck and ST's on trailer, the momentum (no pun intended) of the trailer just pushed that truck straight where it was going.
I don't even think snow tires would have helped. If it happened to me I would have stayed where I could until it blew over and DOT had plowed / salted the roads, if I couldn't stay put I wouldn't have been doing more than 40 mph, less on a down grade.
Just my experience driving in snow, and driving on ice for work for 40 years.

[Ken / Claudia]

If traveling at a slower speed and trailer had chains on, using the trailer brakes can slow TV without jack knifing. That's the reason comm trucks are required to use drag chains on the rear non powered tlr axle.

[Northofu1]

Not in Canada.

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by Northofu1

Not in Canada.

Not even BC and Alberta?

[Northofu1]

I meant Ontario. No chains, no studded tires.

[Todd727]

For the people that immediately speculated that they were doing 50-55 mph, you could've just looked at the video. They were doing 33-36 during most of the video.

[CaptnJohn]

In 1984 before the road improvements and 1 or 2 lane all the way over Wolf Creek Pass I started at the bottom in nice weather pulling a TT with a new Ramcharger. It turned to rain then slush and at the top 13" of snow. The only white knuckle drive I remember. Now when it snows I stay put, including 2 days at a rest stop, until crews can clear them. I'm not a fan of towing in the rain, but 'in snow I don't go'.
The comment of duallies being bad on snow~~ can be true. However with over 4000# in the bed it is better than SRW. There is never less than 1500# in the bed of my truck with hitch, aux fuel, tools, etc.

[Bandit12]

Here in Northern California, we deal with chain controls throughout the winter season. Had chain controls posted on my commute to work this morning. There are 3 documented levels of chain controls for CA but there are actually 4.

R-1: Chains are required on all vehicles except passenger vehicles and light-duty trucks under 6,000 pounds gross weight and equipped with snow tires on at least two drive wheels. Chains must be carried by vehicles using snow tires. All vehicles towing trailers must have chains on one drive axle. Trailers with brakes must have chains on at least one axle.

R-2: Chains or traction devices are required on all vehicles except four-wheel/all-wheel drive vehicles with snow-tread tires on all four wheels.
NOTE: (Four-wheel/all-wheel drive vehicles must carry traction devices in chain control areas.)

R-3: Chains or traction devices are required on all vehicles, no exceptions.

The fourth one is R-1 Modified: Trucks and vehicles pulling trailers require chains, traction devices or snow tires on the drive axle of all vehicles except four wheel or all wheel drive vehicles. Trailers with brakes still are required to chain up one axle.

Regardless of which chain control is posted, all vehicles must carry chains. Posted speed limits apply to all vehicles. If chain control are posted the speed limit is usually reduced to 35 MPH.

My truck is 4x4 and I now have studded snow tires on all four wheels. My wife's car is a Subaru Outback AWD and we have studded snow tires on all four wheel on that vehicle too. Both have a set of chains in the back. I have never been in a situation with the Subaru that I've needed to chain up. My truck on the other hand is a different story. Twice in the past year I gotten stuck, once I was on packed snow turned into ice and I had to chain one wheel to get moving. The second time was just about a week ago and I got in deeper snow before I chained up. I also didn't have the studded snows mounted at that time. A friend had to tug me out of the snow I was in.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by Todd727

For the people that immediately speculated that they were doing 50-55 mph, you could've just looked at the video. They were doing 33-36 during most of the video.

Some may have thought they were going 50-55 but most said (if I recall) they were "going too fast"...and they were. Sometimes 10mph is too fast for the given conditions. On that day obviously 33-36mph was looks to me.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by CaptnJohn

In 1984 before the road improvements and 1 or 2 lane all the way over Wolf Creek Pass I started at the bottom in nice weather pulling a TT with a new Ramcharger. It turned to rain then slush and at the top 13" of snow. The only white knuckle drive I remember. Now when it snows I stay put, including 2 days at a rest stop, until crews can clear them. I'm not a fan of towing in the rain, but 'in snow I don't go'.
The comment of duallies being bad on snow~~ can be true. However with over 4000# in the bed it is better than SRW. There is never less than 1500# in the bed of my truck with hitch, aux fuel, tools, etc.

I've done Wolf Creek for many, many years. Your observations are correct. On high passes what is at the bottom can vary drastically from what is at the top. I've seen many wrecks on the up/down side of that pass from folks that just don't have a clue.

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by Todd727

For the people that immediately speculated that they were doing 50-55 mph, you could've just looked at the video. They were doing 33-36 during most of the video.

Actually watching the video and blowing it up so I could read the speed on my 17" laptop he actually got up to 39mph. I also find it interesting that one of the first vehicles by was an unloaded DRW, driving in control.

Either the driver either was intentionally gaining speed or was unable to hold speed on the downhill.

[mullhaupt]

Originally Posted by jasin1

A lot more dangerous then I thought....towin a fifth wheel in a snowstorm

you might have been going to fast but I just can't believe no one stopped what is this world coming too. in the 70's no one would have passed the scene

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by mullhaupt

you might have been going to fast but I just can't believe no one stopped what is this world coming too. in the 70's no one would have passed the scene

Well at least not the first five or so, then they figure there is enough help.

This is also the reason nowadays that they close all lanes for even a minor accident to protect the first responders.