Raptor 356 Impressions

chunker · 01-30-2020, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRTJH

Given the comments (extracted from your post only to highlight them) do you really think you're going to be satisfied with anything from THOR, as soon as the first warranty claim occurs?

Actually I attempted a new thread titled Raptor 356 Impressions so I'm not sure why my comment was added to the thread about slide seals. But that was going to be part of my question on they forum since it deals with Keystone products. I'm going to gather you are a big fan of Thor, your experiences may be different from mine. Frankly if I had bad customer service with a motorhome on a Prevost chassis I'd be dissatisfied and vocal about it. You cherry picked my comments and left out the one where the dealer is an important link to the "satisfaction experience"(I wrote expense but meant experience).

So tell me about good things in Thor customer service. Do they sell parts direct to the customer, GD doesn't but Winnebago does? How responsive is to the customer AFTER the warranty is expired? What is Keystone doing at the factory to ensure that a quality trouble reduced product is produced? I appreciate any feedback you can provide. Thanks.

chunker · 01-30-2020, 08:38 AM

NOTE; I apologize for what might be a duplicate posting but this was supposed to be it's own separate thread and it ended up being a reply on an existing thread.

In my search for a replacement RV I am also considering the Raptor 356. The reason for the 356 is size (under 40"), weight (17K and under), layout (11'+- garage). I am also considering a Grand Design Momentum 351M which is an identical layout. One of my big concerns is Thor which I consider a POS of a company. However I had a Raptor 300MP which was a good trailer with a pretty good build. Nothings perfect and I know it.

Me?? It's not my first rodeo and I've had tents, pop-ups, travel trailers, 5th wheel TH and regular and motor homes. I've bought new and used. I can fix most things except poor QA and QC coming from the factory. I know that QA and QC has been dismal the last few years from all manufacturers at this price point. That will continue until the economy begins to collapse and people cut back on spending. I'd love better quality from the factory but don't want the catalyst for that to happen. So I'm stuck like all the rest trying to get the best I can for the $$$ I spend.

Didn't mean to philosophize so much, just got carried away. At any rate I like much of the new Raptor characteristics, welded to frame garage tie-down, use of some MoreRyde products instead of Lippert, , willingness of the factory to make some custom build changes (putting in older folding steps instead of solid steps), lighter color interior appointments (I dislike dark gloomy interior colors). Grand Design doesn't build a better trailer but they have had a customer service and response that is good. As stated above Raptor has Thor and they are a POS company from my observation and opinion. I also know the key to a "happy" buying and ownership expense is the dealer that you use especially during any warranty times. I have a local one that I conducer a cut above most. Perfect no better yes.

**JRTJH** · 01-30-2020, 09:23 AM

I deleted your previous post in another thread since you posted the same thing here. I moved all of the responses to this location, although they will post in "timed sequence" rather than in "response sequence" as they are from two threads. Hopefully, that will consolidate all the discussion in one location.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chunker

In my search for a replacement RV I am also considering the Raptor 356. ... One of my big concerns is Thor which I consider a POS of a company. ...

... As stated above Raptor has Thor and they are a POS company from my observation and opinion.
..

Given the comments (extracted from your post only to highlight them) do you really think you're going to be satisfied with anything from THOR, as soon as the first warranty claim occurs?

ctbruce · 01-30-2020, 09:38 AM

Just a thought and since you are experienced you know this, do an over the top PDI before signing anything. If it measures up, then you found yourself as good one and can feel good about buying. If it is not up to snuff, walk away and move to the next one. You will have saved yourself the pain of a potential lemon. Either way, you win.

**JRTJH** · 01-30-2020, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chunker

Actually I attempted a new thread titled Raptor 356 Impressions so I'm not sure why my comment was added to the thread about slide seals. But that was going to be part of my question on they forum since it deals with Keystone products. I'm going to gather you are a big fan of Thor, your experiences may be different from mine. Frankly if I had bad customer service with a motorhome on a Prevost chassis I'd be dissatisfied and vocal about it. You cherry picked my comments and left out the one where the dealer is an important link to the "satisfaction experience"(I wrote expense but meant experience).

So tell me about good things in Thor customer service. Do they sell parts direct to the customer, GD doesn't but Winnebago does? How responsive is to the customer AFTER the warranty is expired? What is Keystone doing at the factory to ensure that a quality trouble reduced product is produced? I appreciate any feedback you can provide. Thanks.

I'll attempt to answer (in a non-argumentative way if possible) your comments as they refer to me.

First, no, I'm not a "big fan of THOR". I am a realist who understands that different companies have different approaches to their product support. You can buy a "$20 Chinese knockoff" at Harbor Freight or a "Snap-On original" for $120. Do you expect the same "manufacturer's support" from both?

Given pricing for GD (which you state doesn't sell parts to customers, but Winnebago does)… Most GD trailers sell for around $5000+ more than a comparable Keystone product. Like Harbor Freight/Snap-On, you do get what you pay for. IMHO, for what that might be worth, GD and Keystone products are remarkably similar in components, build quality and durability. The difference is that $5000 extra that you pay "for the privilege of a smile and helpful voice if you need to call the factory". For some, that's a valuable component of the RV sale, for others, it's not as important and for some, it's a total waste of $5000. So, again, you get what you pay for.

To openly call a company a "POS" and then say, "but I'm very interested in buying their product" …. What "wise shopper" would suggest that kind of compromise (unless it's "keeping the door cracked so I can justify my own mistake" if things go wrong).

If you really think that THOR is a POS company, move on and "hope they either change management style" or go broke. Don't settle for the "POS knowing they won't support me if I have problems" while walking in "eyes wide open to the reality that they are a POS"...…

Remember, however, that THOR is the parent company of Airstream, the "gold standard" for travel trailers for the past 75+ years, the "ultimate in quality and product". They are the only one of that "top of the line" remaining. Avion, Silver Stream and Silver Streak are all "belly up". Having owned an Airstream, I wouldn't spend the $150K for another one, but "THOR and Airstream are the ultimate", according to many people who do spend that kind of money on a 31' trailer.

Other questions you had:

NO, Keystone does not support any customer orders. It's DEALERS ONLY.
Do they support "after warranty issues"? Sometimes yes, sometimes no, it depends on the situation, the facts surrounding the problem and, as you suggested, "dealer involvement". BUT: will a "good dealer always assure a good outcome?" NO WAY, Jose.

As for, in your words: "quality trouble reduced product". The company would suggest they already do better than their competition. The threads on this forum suggest, for the most part, buyers are satisfied. On another "internet site" titled, "Unhappy Keystone RV Owners"... well you tell me if you really think comments on such sites as that are "honest and objective" ???

My recommendation: If you really believe THOR is a "POS company" then move on, buy something else. Don't compromise your standards by spending money where your belief is that the company is a POS. If you do, chances are that you'll be back here "raising hell" the first time you have a problem and the dealer doesn't "bend over backwards to fix it because Keystone is a POS like their parent company THOR.

ctbruce · 01-30-2020, 09:59 AM

If the other site is Things Keystone Sucks At, then this site is for the most part Things They Don't Suck At. Not all threads, but mostly positive and satisfied owners.

Read both to be an informed consumer. The truth lies somewhere in between. Where you will land in that continuum will be up to you.

And as a disclaimer, no one on this forum, that we are aware of, works for Keystone or Thor. If somebody does, that person has not made it known.

chunker · 01-30-2020, 03:15 PM

Thanks for the comments from all. I enjoy a spirited but honest discussion. I was very happy with my Raptor, a 2011 300MP. Yes it was a Thor product but I was out of warranty and nav er needed an service I couldn't handle myself. My skepticism of Thor is based on looking at a variety of RVs, trailers and motorhome. That and talking to various Thor owners who were not happy campers. I'm considering the Raptor based on past ownership experience but as with all manufacturers quality has declined since 2011. Hopefully I'll be a satisfied owner.

chunker · 01-30-2020, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ctbruce

Just a thought and since you are experienced you know this, do an over the top PDI before signing anything. If it measures up, then you found yourself as good one and can feel good about buying. If it is not up to snuff, walk away and move to the next one. You will have saved yourself the pain of a potential lemon. Either way, you win.

That's the plan regardless what I get. There are a number of PDI checklists I have seen so I'll review and take one with me and require all systems to be powered up to check.

chunker · 01-30-2020, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRTJH

Given pricing for GD (which you state doesn't sell parts to customers, but Winnebago does)… Most GD trailers sell for around $5000+ more than a comparable Keystone product. Like Harbor Freight/Snap-On, you do get what you pay for. IMHO, for what that might be worth, GD and Keystone products are remarkably similar in components, build quality and durability. The difference is that $5000 extra that you pay "for the privilege of a smile and helpful voice if you need to call the factory". For some, that's a valuable component of the RV sale, for others, it's not as important and for some, it's a total waste of $5000. So, again, you get what you pay for.

Actually the Raptor is $5-7K more than the GD Momentum comparable trailer. But Raptor has more mandatory "options" that you can either not order for savings or get as desired on the Momentum. Example the Raptor has 3 TVs, Momentum 1. Me I'm not a big TV fan so 3 is overkill. There were some other that I don't recall right now. But at the price point and variables in negotiated price, they are not that far apart especially considering the installed equipment. Both companies will install the older folding aluminum steps instead of the solid steps. I don't like the solid steps as they are not compatible with my traveling style. At the dealership I spent an hour or so on the phone with a factory customer service rep who said they would do that, but they had not had that request before. GD regularly does that. During the conversation we went over the weights of various options. Those models don't have as much cargo capacity so knowing what one weighs and how much options add or can be saved is important. Very good conversation so in that respect customer service very good. If it's as good AFTER a sale that's great.

Talking to my favored dealer tomorrow.

ctbruce · 01-31-2020, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chunker

That's the plan regardless what I get. There are a number of PDI checklists I have seen so I'll review and take one with me and require all systems to be powered up to check.

Good plan. Your best protection is a good dealer who will represent you and you issues to Keystone over warranty issues. From your other posts it sounds like you have a dealer you trust. That's a good thing. Good luck.

travelin texans · 01-31-2020, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chunker

Thanks for the comments from all. I enjoy a spirited but honest discussion. I was very happy with my Raptor, a 2011 300MP. Yes it was a Thor product but I was out of warranty and nav er needed an service I couldn't handle myself. My skepticism of Thor is based on looking at a variety of RVs, trailers and motorhome. That and talking to various Thor owners who were not happy campers. I'm considering the Raptor based on past ownership experience but as with all manufacturers quality has declined since 2011. Hopefully I'll be a satisfied owner.

When you speak of "Thor owners" you will have lots of folks upset with their RVs as that's 85%+ of all the RVs on the road with Keystone being just one of the MANY manufacturers in the Thor stable.

chunker · 01-31-2020, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by travelin texans

When you speak of "Thor owners" you will have lots of folks upset with their RVs as that's 85%+ of all the RVs on the road with Keystone being just one of the MANY manufacturers in the Thor stable.

I agree but what I'm saying is in my travels and friends I know several people who own Thor corporate owned vehicles and as a rule they were dissatisfied with a Thor response to issues and problems. The worst examples of an RV build had Thor emblazoned on it, Thor Ace. Horrid factory build and QC and I was appalled that a dealer would put something like that in a show designed to sell stuff.

chunker · 01-31-2020, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ctbruce

Good plan. Your best protection is a good dealer who will represent you and you issues to Keystone over warranty issues. From your other posts it sounds like you have a dealer you trust. That's a good thing. Good luck.

That's a high bar to achieve and I don't have blind faith, but they will be responsive to issues. As Reagan said, "trust but verify".

Dennis852 · 02-02-2020, 01:54 PM

I just purchased a raptor 356. For the class that it is in I think it’s the best trailer out this year. We looked at every brand except for the momentum’s (can’t justify the extra money for something that’s nothing more than the competition) and found the raptor to be the best overall package. The styling inside and out is what got me. It’s very modern but not overdone. Once it arrives and we get some miles on it I will make sure to post a review.

chunker · 02-05-2020, 04:44 AM

I have placed an order for a Raptor 356 with some specific options. Raptor comes well equipped but most dealers add to that. Too equipped for me. I am ordering the queen bed, NOT ordering the patio system, AM ordering the HappyJac, Full Body Paint, (orange), Dual pane windows, grey interior. We put the request in for folding steps instead of the solid steps. That turned into a glitch. Keystone is inserting this order into the line on one already started but steps were already done so got with dealer and we'll change that when it gets in. That was talking to the dealership owner whom I know, so I'm OK with that. Factory says 1st of March, dealer says better to expect mid March. Maybe I'll drive up and watch it get built. Probably not though.

**chuckster57** · 02-05-2020, 04:59 AM

If it comes off the line with solid steps, I would verify the brackets are there for traditional fold down steps. And the dealership will have to cut the Jwrap for the steps to fit.

We have added solid steps to units with the folding steps, not the other way around. If the brackets not there, I would ask how they are going to install it.

chunker · 02-05-2020, 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckster57

If it comes off the line with solid steps, I would verify the brackets are there for traditional fold down steps. And the dealership will have to cut the Jwrap for the steps to fit.

We have added solid steps to units with the folding steps, not the other way around. If the brackets not there, I would ask how they are going to install it.

I have physically got under 2 356 and some other Raptors, 2020 models and they have the 2 brackets for the folding steps. It appears to me that Lippert ships these frames with the brackets and if the dealer's plan doesn't use them no big deal. So unless there is a factory change in the last few months I will be OK. Where I have seen an issue, mainly in a GD, is the body is mounted with the door close to the wheels and there wasn't room. GD also I think installs part of an upgraded audio system in the area which would require relocation of stuff. So far nothing in the Raptor build is an issue that can't be handled. As you said the Jwrap lower trim is cut and edge trim, holes in floor patched by flooring company, side trim replaced to get rid of those holes. Already talked to the dealership owner that I know and respect so we're on that already.

Not going to say some other issue couldn't arrive to put kinks in the works but so far, so good.

**chuckster57** · 02-05-2020, 06:03 AM

Good deal. Hope your whole deal goes smooth.

LewisB · 02-09-2020, 12:55 PM

We purchased a new Raptor 353TS (which is quite similar to the rig you ordered) and have been extremely happy with it - the key, as stated elsewhere, is your relationship with the dealer.

I too was/am not a rabid fan of the Morryde "solid" steps. I like them when they are down - nice and stable...but they are hard to use for temporary conditions (like at a rest stop or in the dirt alongside the road) and they represent a very real HAZARD to your trailer when misused in conjunction with the Level-Up system. We were not warned about this during our PDI, so make sure you understand that you can destroy your entry door if you change the level-up system with these steps down. (See the attached Morryde warning)

1543339434-RV Step Tip_v3.pdf

HDroadglide · 02-10-2020, 10:14 AM

WE purchased in Nov 2019 our 3rd Keystone RV it is a Raptor 351. We had a few issues with some things in the RV and speaking with Keystone Factor Rep. they have been more than helpful. As we bought our RV and hit the road the dealer we bought it from corrected some of our problems and we found others and we headed out. Called Keystone to ask where there was a dealer to help fix our few small problems and was given a dealer close. My experience with the Factory has been Great support not so much with the dealer that we were told to correct our small problems on the road. But that was Dealer.

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