advantages and disadvantages of towing with a 1/2 T and with a 3/4 T

[Johnnyfry]

Buying my first 5th ( actually first RV) I went with a 3500 series Dodge Auto with 5.9 L Cummins.

Very happy with the truck. No sway, pulls with ease and no sense of overload, PLUS, I have never had the feeling of being pushed toward disaster when stopping at an intersection. It also gets decent mileage AND the other half has no problem sharing the driving.

John

2006 Dodge 3500 Cummins diesel Mega cab, Cougar 318SAB.

[mustang94]

Originally Posted by Jim W

What users do not consider is the GCWR, GVWR, GAWR and the GAWF of 1/2 ton truck.

Jim W.

Well this is all Greek to me as well as a lot of others out there and depend on their dealer telling them what they can and can not pull with their truck. With out say what truck I have the dealer said oh sure you can pull it with out any problems.... According to this spec sheet. http://keystone-xlite.com/index.php?page=specs for the 31RKS I am now guessing I should have a bigger truck....

[CarKath]

Originally Posted by mustang94

Well this is all Greek to me as well as a lot of others out there and depend on their dealer telling them what they can and can not pull with their truck. With out say what truck I have the dealer said oh sure you can pull it with out any problems.... According to this spec sheet. http://keystone-xlite.com/index.php?page=specs for the 31RKS I am now guessing I should have a bigger truck....

I can understand how this can be overwhelming. A lot of people do depend on dealer to lead then. Some dealers are good some bad. As with everything in our lives.

My personal approach is and always has been, research things to death. Especially in this computer age. The info is at your finger tips.

I checked specs on both truck and trailer to see if it would work. Manufactures all have there specs and capacities on there sites.

If your not comfortable searching it. Call Keystone and ask specs, while your making calls, call Ford, Dodge or GM or what ever make you have and ask the "posted load ratings".

After some reading and talking and pondering. It comes clear what is going to work.

Do the research, forget opinions......... you will be fine

Carl

[Festus2]

Don Williams (Mustang94):
To help you make some sense of all this Greek stuff which you have been reading on here, you might want to visit the Trailer Life magazine website (www.trailerlife.com) and find the appropriate links about towing. If you haven't already done so, try going to the Ford website and check its truck towing links. Look in your Ford truck manual under "towing". In addition to these three, there are numerous websites all devoted to towing --- just do a Google search.
As CarKath pointed out in his post, the more you can find out on your own about what all this Greek stuff means for you, the better informed your decisions will be. You will end up relying less on what your dealer or Keystone tells you and instead you will be building up your own knowledge base.
You have to remember that dealers - and Keystone to some extent - are in the business of selling RV's and may tell you all sorts of stuff to make that sale. If you happen to appear on their lot in a 1/2 T truck, some may tell you "not to worry, your truck will handle that". And to convince you even further, they might point to the sticker on the RV that says "1/2 ton towable"....."See? It says right here that you can".

The Keystone link you inserted in your post is a prime example of a sales tactic which tries to convince people that all these RV's listed below can be easily towed with a 1/2 ton vehicle. Some on that list can be. Others are "iffy". Others shouldn't be.

Again, the buyer has to do some research and homework. It is their responsibility. An informed buyer is a smart buyer.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by mustang94

Well this is all Greek to me as well as a lot of others out there and depend on their dealer telling them what they can and can not pull with their truck. With out say what truck I have the dealer said oh sure you can pull it with out any problems.... According to this spec sheet. http://keystone-xlite.com/index.php?page=specs for the 31RKS I am now guessing I should have a bigger truck....

It might sound like Greek, but it's vital that anyone who tows a heavy trailer understand their rig's limitations. Imagine if you weighed 350 lbs, you'd never consider buying pants with a 28" waist, so should you never consider a trailer not suited to your tow vehicle. To make those decisions, you have to understand the GREEK. It's really pretty simple.

GCWR: Gross Combined Weight Rating=the total weight of your tow vehicle, all its contents COMBINED with your "towed vehicle" with all its contents. ie: the total weight of your truck and trailer, loaded and ready to tow. It's the GVWR plus the maximum trailer weight based on the information in your owners manual and/or posted on a sticker on your vehicle door or under the hood. For 2010, on the F150, it's on pages 260-266 in the owner's manual.

GVWR: Gross Vehicle Weight=the maximum weight your vehicle is engineered to support while in operation. ie: the maximum allowable weight for your vehicle, its passengers, fuel, hitch, cargo and the tongue weight of your towed vehicle (trailer) Also on the sticker on the door frame. of the truck and on the yellow sticker on the left front side of the trailer as well as on the yellow tag on the screen door of "some" Keystone trailers.

PAYLOAD: The actual weight you can add to your empty vehicle. It's posted on the door frame along with tire size and inflation pressure. Actually, when you weigh your vehicle and subtract that from the GVWR you get an even more accurate figure for payload.

GAWR: Gross Axle Weight REAR=the maximum weight allowed on the rear axle. ie: when loaded for a trip, trailer connected, and weight distributing hitch adjusted for the trip, the maximum actual weight (in pounds) on the rear tires. Also on the sticker

GAWF: Gross Axle Weight FRONT=The maximum weight allowed on the front axle. ie: when loaded for a trip, trailer connected, and weight distributing hitch adjusted for the trip, the maximum actual weight (in pounds) on the front tires. Also on the sticker.

Remember, the only way to really know what the truck weighs, what the trailer weighs, how much weight is on the front or rear axle, the tongue weight of the trailer, axle weights of the trailer and how the combined rig weighs when connected and ready for a trip is to actually put it on the scales and get the true weights. Weigh the truck filled with fuel and your "normal" passenger load. Weigh the front and rear axle separately. Then, hook up the trailer and reweigh the entire rig. Make note of the water tank because it must be included in your weights, also the propane and battery (ies) need to be included. Weigh the front and rear axles of the truck and the axles on the trailer. You may want to weigh each side of the trailer if you're close to GVW on the trailer. It sounds "anal" to be so picky, but the only way you'll ever know what you are dealing with is to know what each part weighs as well as what the total package weighs. I spent about 2 hours at the CAT scales near my home doing this. It's given me much more than just assurance that I am not overweight. It helps with loading the truck and trailer as well as helps in calculating how much pin weight will increase if we tow with half full holding tanks, etc.

Write down every weight. When you get home and start trying to piece it all together, you'll be thankful that you have all the information in a logical format.

Without knowing which tow package you have in your F150, it would be difficult to say that you are overloaded. You may be OK, or you may need to make some compromises to get down to within your acceptable weight restrictions. Only the scale can tell you what you actually face.

As for dealers, salesmen, dealerships, even some manufacturers, they are in the business to make money. If you walk in and they can convince you that you want their product more than any other product, they get your money. Once that's done, you can't return it if it doesn't work out for you, and if you read any contract, the dealership has not documented any "guarantee" of suitability with your vehicle. In fact, there's a disclaimer on most RV contracts that states something like, "No warrantee of suitability with any specific tow vehicle has been made." It beocmes a matter of "he said/she said" and that's impossible to prove, so the customer learns the hard way.

If you want any more information, or if I can help explain further, send me a PM and I'll answer any questions you might have.

It's not Greek, and yes, you can figure it out, then you can make educated, logical decisions on your situation.

[smiller]

Excellent summation JRTJH, that should be a sticky somewhere. One item I would add is the often overlooked spec concerning frontal area limitations. Exceeding the recommended value isn't as dangerous as overloading but will result in a feeling of lack of power and be very hard on the drivetrain.

Mustang94, here is a link to some towing info on your truck, you can plug some of these numbers in as JRTJH described and see where you are. I suspect you will be right on the edges at best and light-duty gas trucks don't like to be on the edges. If you are within the limits and are happy with what you have then whether to change vehicles would be a tough judgment call. FWIW I was where you are and made the mistake of looking at a Dodge 2500 diesel on a dealer's lot and had the salesman give me the keys and tell me to take it home and pull my trailer to see what I thought. The difference was so shocking that I bought the truck with hardly a second thought.

[wgb1]

Excellent post JRTJH and very helpful to me as well. I tow with a Chevy Silverado 1500 and without all the info, I know I am at least at my limit if not a little over

I walked into so many RV dealers over a 3 or 4 year period that said I would have noooooo problem towing with my truck. I now know they were all full of bull to put it mildly. Fortunately, I only tow short distances and will eventually upgrade my TV. The term "Half ton towable" is laughable with all but the smallest of trailers unless it is a very "beefy" half ton truck. I am able to tow with my current vehicle at 70 MPH on the freeway if I want but choose not to. I stay within a comfortable llimit that I feel is safe.

At any rate, thanks for the quality info.

[RCrawler]

1/2 ton trucks use a semi floating axle design, meaning the axleshaft not only transmits power, it also supports the weight of the vehicle. They use a single roller bearing or tapered bearing.

On a 3/4 and 1 ton, they use a full floating rear axle. The axle shaft only transmits power. A hub with inner and outer tapered roller bearings supports the weight. This is the same design that is used in medium and HD trucks, even above class 8.

It is a common occurence to break a semi floating axle shaft or have a bearing failure from normal driving. Add a few years of hauling and pulling a trailer or 5th wheel at or near the trucks capacity...

Break an axle or wheel bearing on a 1/2 ton, and you may likely see your tire and wheel pass you by. On an HD, it will simply stop moving. And while wheel bearing failures do happen, they are rare on a full floater.

I've pulled just about every kind of load you can think of. With mini trucks up to 53' 8 axle maxi trailers. Been WAAAAYYYY over the capacity of the vehicle at times. For ocassional towing, a 1/2 ton will do just fine. But for regular towing, I'm picking the larger truck, every time. More power, better braking, better transmission, stronger drivetrains.

Jason

[SteveC7010]

Originally Posted by RCrawler

1/2 ton trucks use a semi floating axle design, meaning the axleshaft not only transmits power, it also supports the weight of the vehicle. They use a single roller bearing or tapered bearing.

On a 3/4 and 1 ton, they use a full floating rear axle. The axle shaft only transmits power. A hub with inner and outer tapered roller bearings supports the weight. This is the same design that is used in medium and HD trucks, even above class 8.

It is a common occurrence to break a semi floating axle shaft or have a bearing failure from normal driving. Add a few years of hauling and pulling a trailer or 5th wheel at or near the trucks capacity...

Break an axle or wheel bearing on a 1/2 ton, and you may likely see your tire and wheel pass you by. On an HD, it will simply stop moving. And while wheel bearing failures do happen, they are rare on a full floater.

Jason, that is a superb explanation of the axle differences, and thank you!

This explanation plus the actual payload ratings for 1/2, 3/4, and 1 ton trucks certainly makes understanding these issues much, much clearer.
(Payloads for '12 Dodge Rams 1500's = approx. 1,600-1,800# , 2500's = approx. 1,800 to 3,100#, and 3500's = 5,100#)

[GMcKenzie]

Originally Posted by cumminsdad08

NOW as for programers and chips. i run a chip on both my diesel's. the one on my dodge is a programer and i like that for one reason only, fuel millage. i am able to obtain a few more miles per gallons. now it did cost me 700 bucks to install it, so will i see the savings, prolly not. i will most likely end up changing it before the savings equal out. i wanted it for other reasons too. but i got it because i wanted to. I DO NOT see any difference when towing the camper in power. i do see faster turbo boosting, and faster acceleration when passing, but both is not really that important compaired to stock. i will often pull it on stock or fuel. i hardly ever bump it up. its harder on the truck i want to make last. now the chevy has 60 hp chip over stock, but i am mostly pulling utilitly trailers over steep grades and on long highway runs. and i did notice a differnce with it. it gets to speed faster and will up shift on the grades, as long with keeping the speed up on hills also. fuel is of no concern to me usually, being a work truck. this is just my take on programmers/chips. i feel that they are mostly for play.

Biggest thing I saw different after installing a chip (Edge Juice) is the truck hunted gears less and would hold fifth better when hitting a hill. I maybe saw a 1mpg gain, but really can't be sure. I also have the newer CTS display so I can monitor all my temps, including EGT's. I do think this is a must for a diesel even pulling moderate weight.

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by Jim W

My only $0.02 that I am adding is. I have seen way too many grocery getters over loaded with the front end pointing in the air. To even consider a 1/2 ton truck as a tow vehicle for a heavy trailer.

What users do not consider is the GCWR, GVWR, GAWR and the GAWF of 1/2 ton truck.

Air bags do not help increase the carrying capacity of any truck. All they offer is the ability of leveling the load. Chips or programmers might increase the engine horsepower and performance, but they do not increase the load carrying capacity of the truck.

Hitches do not increase the load carrying capacity of any truck. What they do is to allow the load to be distributed over the frame of the truck.

What will change the load carrying capacity of any truck are the design components that are used by the manufacture, as an example.
The 2500HD and 3500HD Ram with a 6.7L diesel/auto has the same frame under these truck. But what changes the load carrying capacity are the tires, axles, springs and ring gear and pinion on the DRW truck. This is where the load carrying ability increase comes from, not aftermarket components.
Jim W.

Couln't agree more with air bags do not add to towing capacity. I have a set on my 1/2 ton truck for getting into and out of a sharp dip in my driveway to street transition. it's nice to hit the air up and lift the toung to prevent dragging and drop it back down after transitioning to the road from the driver seat.

[smiller]

Originally Posted by Jim W

The 2500HD and 3500HD Ram with a 6.7L diesel/auto has the same frame under these truck. But what changes the load carrying capacity are the tires, axles, springs and ring gear and pinion on the DRW truck. This is where the load carrying ability increase comes from, not aftermarket components.

I'm not sure about the 6.7, but in the 3rd Gen 5.9 trucks the 2500 and 3500 are essentially identical (exact same engine, frame, transmission, rear end, brakes, etc.) The additional capacity comes from the two extra rear tires, and that's about it (although the difference is substantial of course since tire capacity quickly become the limiting factor once you get strong enough axles under there.)

Once you distill all the numbers down the most critical items end up being tire and axle ratings and in that realm the 3/4 or 1-ton trucks are in a completely different class than the 1/2-tons. And as mentioned above air bags, springs, etc. won't improve the axle or tire carrying capacity one iota, they just cover up how overloaded the truck probably is.

[SteveC7010]

Originally Posted by smiller

I'm not sure about the 6.7, but in the 3rd Gen 5.9 trucks the 2500 and 3500 are essentially identical (exact same engine, frame, transmission, rear end, brakes, etc.) The additional capacity comes from the two extra rear tires, and that's about it (although the difference is substantial of course since tire capacity quickly become the limiting factor once you get strong enough axles under there.)

I don't think you can even get single rear wheels in the 3500 series as they all appear to be duallies.

For both Dodge and Chevy (and GMC... ), and I suspect Ford as well, the dual rear wheels make the 3500's ideal for small dump bodies, tow truck bodies, flat bed bodies, goose neck horse and utility trailers, and oh yeah, pulling the larger fifth wheelers with the heavier pin weights.

[smiller]

Originally Posted by SteveC7010

I don't think you can even get single rear wheels in the 3500 series as they all appear to be duallies.

The marketing dept. at Dodge puts a set of helper springs on a 2500 (seriously, that is the only difference) and sells it as a single-rear wheel '3500' along with the duallie version, but yes, I think most everyone considers a true 3500 to be a duallie.

[RCrawler]

Originally Posted by smiller

but yes, I think most everyone considers a true 3500 to be a duallie.

Hardly. Is this going to turn into a SRW vs DRW debate? Because I don't need training wheels to keep MY truck upright.

Jason

[SteveC7010]

Originally Posted by RCrawler

Hardly. Is this going to turn into a SRW vs DRW debate? Because I don't need training wheels to keep MY truck upright.

Jason

No debate here, just an observation of how things seem to be these days.

FWIW, I don't think a single rear wheel 3500 has the same payload rating as a duallie, but didn't find the info on the Dodge Ram website.

(And, since the camping season up here is barely a full five months, I'd be super happy if someone could give me easy instructions about how to get the darned extension fenders off the bed of my truck for the other seven months of the year. I'd convert that thing into a SRW if a flash if I could.)

[smiller]

Originally Posted by RCrawler

Hardly. Is this going to turn into a SRW vs DRW debate? Because I don't need training wheels to keep MY truck upright.

Not at all, I was only commenting on how the terminology is getting blurred these days.

[JRTJH]

Steve, If you go to this page on the Dodge website:

http://www.ramtrucks.com/en/2011/ram...nd_trims_3500/

They show the different cab configurations for the 3500 series. They do show a 8' and 6.5' single rear configuration in crew cab configuration and also a single rear wheel configuration for short bed in the megacab.

Apparently, at least on that part of the Dodge site, the regular cab is "dually only" while the crew cab and mega cab are available with single or dual rear wheels. I also was suprised to see that the megacab is only available in short bed version... Hmmmmm

From what I see, here's the difference in 4X4 SRW and DRW: (Both with the 3.73 rear axle)

SRW Base Weight 7367 GVW 10,100 GCWR 21,000 payload 2730 max trailer 13,500
DRW Base Weight 7621 GVW 12,300 GCWR 21,000 payload 4680 max trailer 13,250

Apparently, according to GCWR, the limiting factor must not be tires since the GCWR remained the same between the SRW and DRW. Must be something else that limits max trailer size. Axle, transmission, engine???

[RCrawler]

Depending on cab layout, gearing and transmission choice, a SRW 3500 can tow and haul as much as a DRW. But with identical trucks, the DRW will always be rated more. The current ratings can be very confusing with every manufacturer having their own system. But the government has created a standardized system for rating. Although I'm not convinced that anything government will be better

But just like with the 1/2 ton vs HD thing, you can get away with more than what the manufacturers rate them at. I'd hook up to any load with my SRW 1 ton that was meant for a DRW truck. But it also comes down to driver ability and experience.

An inexperienced driver behind the wheel of an HD truck can be just as dangerous as someone that has been towing for 20+ years in a 1/2 ton with an identical load.

The Mega Cab is only available in a short bed. But it can also be equipped with DRW. I know several guys towing heavy with this configuration.

Jason

[SteveC7010]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

Apparently, according to GCWR, the limiting factor must not be tires since the GCWR remained the same between the SRW and DRW. Must be something else that limits max trailer size. Axle, transmission, engine???

I poked around the Dodge site some more and found a lot more numbers. Took some looking.

The engine must not be the limiting factor as the 4500 and 5500 chassis and cab products use the same 6.7L diesel. The numbers just keep on climbing there. I suspect tranny and drive train limit what they can pull, with axles and suspension defining payload.