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Old 04-30-2020, 10:44 AM   #41
Sarge2
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I appreciate all the responses in regard to the tire and wheel size, and since I'm a bit of a gear head myself, I also appreciate a good ride when I see it...
Stay safe my friends...
Sarge
by the way, probably take the advise to improve the quality of tire and not the size... thanks again
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Old 04-30-2020, 10:54 AM   #42
traynoral
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Originally Posted by Sarge2 View Post
I appreciate all the responses in regard to the tire and wheel size, and since I'm a bit of a gear head myself, I also appreciate a good ride when I see it...
Stay safe my friends...
Sarge
by the way, probably take the advise to improve the quality of tire and not the size... thanks again
Great. Let us know what you end up getting for tires and how well they perform.
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Old 05-02-2020, 01:00 PM   #43
lunge motorsport
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So Calvin …I feel compelled to respond again to you.
My original reply to the original post was a because I believe that RV manufacturers have received certifications on big trailers with marginal suspension and brakes. I have owned a few and they have used marginal components throughout. So when someone is modifying a vehicle to meet the certification standard by the manufacturer, that is a minimum and should be considered as such. I also mentioned that there are those on the forum that are hung up on this certification as the gospel, never to be deviated from. Hello Calvin…
You, then cited a Federal regulation with a link to back up your claim about the certification standard held by the NHTSA. Here is the section as copied you’re your post. https://www.govregs.com/regulations/...7_section567.6
You failed to mention that this regulation applies to vehicles provided to 2nd party outfitters who receive chassis’ for modification and then desire to make changes to the GVWR rating. Those vehicles will then be resold as a motorhome or ambulance or some other type of vehicle. It wholly misleading to claim that those regulations apply to the end user. For a guy to claim he is a thorn in the side of others wishing to improve their vehicles because he is a rules guy that then misrepresents the rules is suspect behavior. What is the motivation for your withholding that critical piece of info from your post? Here is more text that should be of interest to those on the forum who are or have been influenced by “The rules guy”

...The term GVWR is defined in 49 CFR Part 571.3 as ‘the value specified by the manufacturer as the loaded weight of a single vehicle.’ the GVWR informs vehicle owners how heavily the vehicle may safely be loaded. It also affects the vehicle’s loading and other tests conditions for the performance tests to ascertain whether the vehicle complies with applicable safety standards. NHTSA expects the GVWR to reflect a manufacturer’s good-faith evaluation of the vehicle’s size, weight, load carrying capacity, and intended use.”

“NHTSA’s regulations on GVWR only addresses the GVWR of new vehicles. This is because the agency’s safety standards apply only to new motor vehicles and new motor vehicle equipment. There is a provision, §108(a)(2)(A), in the Vehicle Safety Act that prohibits manufacturers, distributors, dealers and motor vehicle repair businesses from knowingly rendering inoperative in whole or in part any device or element of design installed in accordance with a Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard. These parties would be subject to this provision if they were to modify your vehicle’s suspension. However, the provision does not apply to individual owners modifying their own vehicles.”

“Because we do not regulate how individuals modify their own vehicles (and thus do not prohibit you from modifying your vehicle’s suspension), we are unable to advise you about the specific modifications that must be made to a vehicle for it to safely carry an additional 1,000 pounds. Among other things, however, you should carefully evaluate whether the vehicle’s axles, brakes, tires, and frame can adequately handle the additional load. We suggest you consult with the original vehicle manufacturer about this question. You may also wish to consult a local attorney concerning possible liability in the event your vehicle is involved in an accident.”

Now Calvin....maybe you can help me understand how this section of the regs applies to the end user? Maybe I’ve got this all wrong here?

There are a few more on this forum that cited their backgrounds making statements such as backyard mechanic, bubble gum from a buzz box, and that a guy that may be able to weld up his lawn more is not qualified to make a modification to a vehicle without the proper non-existent regulations. One poster said that he would not want to be around a coach on the highway with such mods. Wow! What blow hards you guys are. You have no idea about the qualifications that a guy may have to make upgrades.

So for me, I will continue to offer advice to those that request it, if I have the knowledge to help, and I will now try to understand what motivates members who wish to show authority on any subject here.
Darrel
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They have many features and upgrades, more than I can list, so much, did I mention they are well equipped, I don’t know if I have enough room here....and I really don’t think you care anyway, so nope
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Old 05-02-2020, 02:15 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by lunge motorsport View Post
So Calvin …I feel compelled to respond again to you.
My original reply to the original post was a because I believe that RV manufacturers have received certifications on big trailers with marginal suspension and brakes. I have owned a few and they have used marginal components throughout. So when someone is modifying a vehicle to meet the certification standard by the manufacturer, that is a minimum and should be considered as such. I also mentioned that there are those on the forum that are hung up on this certification as the gospel, never to be deviated from. Hello Calvin…
You, then cited a Federal regulation with a link to back up your claim about the certification standard held by the NHTSA. Here is the section as copied you’re your post. https://www.govregs.com/regulations/...7_section567.6
You failed to mention that this regulation applies to vehicles provided to 2nd party outfitters who receive chassis’ for modification and then desire to make changes to the GVWR rating. Those vehicles will then be resold as a motorhome or ambulance or some other type of vehicle. It wholly misleading to claim that those regulations apply to the end user. For a guy to claim he is a thorn in the side of others wishing to improve their vehicles because he is a rules guy that then misrepresents the rules is suspect behavior. What is the motivation for your withholding that critical piece of info from your post? Here is more text that should be of interest to those on the forum who are or have been influenced by “The rules guy”

You can't get out of context and provide a complete answer. This is the entire .6 you speak of... § 567.6
Requirements for persons who do not alter certified vehicles or do so with readily attachable components.
A person who does not alter a motor vehicle or who alters such a vehicle only by the addition, substitution, or removal of readily attachable components such as mirrors or tires and rim assemblies, or minor finishing operations such as painting, in such a manner that the vehicle's stated weight ratings are still valid, need not affix a label to the vehicle, but shall allow a manufacturer's label that conforms to the requirements of this part to remain affixed to the vehicle. If such a person is a distributor of the motor vehicle, allowing the manufacturer's label to remain affixed to the vehicle shall satisfy the distributor's certification requirements under the Vehicle Safety Act.


The term GVWR is defined in 49 CFR Part 571.3 as ‘the value specified by the manufacturer as the loaded weight of a single vehicle.’ the GVWR informs vehicle owners how heavily the vehicle may safely be loaded. It also affects the vehicle’s loading and other tests conditions for the performance tests to ascertain whether the vehicle complies with applicable safety standards. NHTSA expects the GVWR to reflect a manufacturer’s good-faith evaluation of the vehicle’s size, weight, load carrying capacity, and intended use.”


You're out of context again. "Gross vehicle weight rating or GVWR means the value specified by the manufacturer as the loaded weight of a single vehicle." That's the full extent of the definition. Compliance with vehicle safety is a series of all sorts of other things and the vehicle manufacturer attested to them with a sworn statement on the vehicle certification label.

“NHTSA’s regulations on GVWR only addresses the GVWR of new vehicles. This is because the agency’s safety standards apply only to new motor vehicles and new motor vehicle equipment. There is a provision, §108(a)(2)(A), in the Vehicle Safety Act that prohibits manufacturers, distributors, dealers and motor vehicle repair businesses from knowingly rendering inoperative in whole or in part any device or element of design installed in accordance with a Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard. These parties would be subject to this provision if they were to modify your vehicle’s suspension. However, the provision does not apply to individual owners modifying their own vehicles.” You're overlooking industry standards.

“Because we do not regulate how individuals modify their own vehicles (and thus do not prohibit you from modifying your vehicle’s suspension), we are unable to advise you about the specific modifications that must be made to a vehicle for it to safely carry an additional 1,000 pounds. Among other things, however, you should carefully evaluate whether the vehicle’s axles, brakes, tires, and frame can adequately handle the additional load. We suggest you consult with the original vehicle manufacturer about this question. You may also wish to consult a local attorney concerning possible liability in the event your vehicle is involved in an accident.”

Now Calvin....maybe you can help me understand how this section of the regs applies to the end user? Maybe I’ve got this all wrong here?

There are a few more on this forum that cited their backgrounds making statements such as backyard mechanic, bubble gum from a buzz box, and that a guy that may be able to weld up his lawn more is not qualified to make a modification to a vehicle without the proper non-existent regulations. One poster said that he would not want to be around a coach on the highway with such mods. Wow! What blow hards you guys are. You have no idea about the qualifications that a guy may have to make upgrades.

So for me, I will continue to offer advice to those that request it, if I have the knowledge to help, and I will now try to understand what motivates members who wish to show authority on any subject here.
Darrel
GVWR is the ultimate limiter. The vehicle is built to standards that insure it is safe to operate when the GVWR has not been exceeded.

What is a modification?

Welding something to the frame of your vehicle is a modification. Is it legal and safe? If so, by who's standards?

What is a misapplication?

Replacing Original Equipment wheels and tires that are 15" with some that are 16" is a misapplication without the approval of the vehicle manufacturer. Says who? Industry standards, it's even in the Keystone vehicle owner's manual.
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Old 05-02-2020, 05:34 PM   #45
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The way I interpret all these Reg's is that they apply to manufactures selling or distributors of motor vehicles. Once a vehicle is sold and titled as a private vehicle they do not apply.
In Virginia as in some other states we have an annual safety inspection. When I take my trailer in for inspection they check that it is safe to operate on the highways. They check brakes, suspension, lights, etc. and anything that might make it unsafe to operate out on public streets. They do not check whether it conforms to any new vehicle Regulations. It is a private vehicle. I am not a manufacturer selling new vehicles.

Once they affix a sticker on my vehicle I have met all state requirements...period. In states that don't have annual safety inspections the owner is still required to operate their vehicle safely and insure the maintenance of the vehicle is kept up. In all cases they do not require private owners to maintain vehicles to new vehicle regulations.
We are not selling standardized new manufactured vehicles to the public.
The federal government controls their manufacturing certifications.

We are private owners and only need to insure the safe operation of our private vehicles.
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Old 05-02-2020, 09:33 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by fjr vfr View Post
The way I interpret all these Reg's is that they apply to manufactures selling or distributors of motor vehicles. Once a vehicle is sold and titled as a private vehicle they do not apply.
In Virginia as in some other states we have an annual safety inspection. When I take my trailer in for inspection they check that it is safe to operate on the highways. They check brakes, suspension, lights, etc. and anything that might make it unsafe to operate out on public streets. They do not check whether it conforms to any new vehicle Regulations. It is a private vehicle. I am not a manufacturer selling new vehicles.

Once they affix a sticker on my vehicle I have met all state requirements...period. In states that don't have annual safety inspections the owner is still required to operate their vehicle safely and insure the maintenance of the vehicle is kept up. In all cases they do not require private owners to maintain vehicles to new vehicle regulations.
We are not selling standardized new manufactured vehicles to the public.
The federal government controls their manufacturing certifications.

We are private owners and only need to insure the safe operation of our private vehicles.
The minimum standards for any state vehicle inspection is found in 49 CFR 570. Here is one reference to those standards. IMO it's the easiest one to read.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/part-570
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Old 05-03-2020, 03:52 AM   #47
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The minimum standards for any state vehicle inspection is found in 49 CFR 570. Here is one reference to those standards. IMO it's the easiest one to read.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/part-570
While it may be the easiest to read, it also defines the applicability of the federal guideline:

§ 570.3 Applicability.
This part does not in itself impose requirements on any person. It is intended to be implemented by States through the highway safety program standards issued under the Highway Safety Act (23 U.S.C. 402) with respect to inspection of motor vehicles with gross vehicle weight rating of 10,000 pounds or less, except motorcycles or trailers.

§ 570.53 Applicability.
This part does not in itself impose requirements on any person. It is intended to be implemented by States through the highway safety program standards issued under the Highway Safety Act (23 U.S.C. 402) with respect to inspection of motor vehicles with gross vehicle weight rating greater than 10,000 pounds, except mobile structure trailers.

So, in the "easy to read parts", these guidelines are for the STATE to consider including in their "STATE INSPECTION" process. Many states have not implemented an inspection program and those that haven't "are in violation of the federal guideline" (if there is any violation) The guidelines apply to setting up a state inspection program and are guidelines on what to check IF an inspection program is established. It is not a requirement for any specific vehicle inspection/compliance by any owner of that vehicle... Citizens of the 50 states are not the "subject of/scope of" these guidelines. At any rate, in the "under 10K GVW" trailers and motorcycles are specifically excluded and in the "over 10K GVW" mobile structure trailers (I don't know of any motorcycle with a GVW in that range) are specifically excluded.

Now, for the definition of "mobile structure trailer": Mobile structure means a factory assembled structure or structures equipped with the necessary service connections and made so as to be readily movable as a unit or units on its (their) own running gear and designed to be with or without a permanent foundation. Mobile structure does not include manufactured homes. https://www.lawinsider.com/dictionary/mobile-structure

If we "research manufactured homes" (we've had many discussions about this on the forum) RV's are a type of trailer that is specifically excluded from the "manufactured home" designation. There are specifically defined exclusion criteria, formulated by RVIA and approved by the federal government and all state governments in their motor vehicle code. The "inclusion of RV's in the manufactured home designation has long been a "DON'T TOUCH OUR PRODUCT" by RVIA and so far, the federal government and all 50 states have not moved to include RV's in the manufactured home category...…

It's sort of like saying, "All apples will be inspected for compliance" and since you own an orange, you'll need to be inspected".....
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Old 05-03-2020, 07:20 AM   #48
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I agree with what John posted and with the theory or reality (no data to prove either one) of what Calvin has said. While the regs are what they are here's the the thing as I see it. Your opinion may differ and that's fine.

Here in Maryland where I reside there are state required inspections only when yo sell a vehicle, other states have annual inspections. BUT, and here's the big but. those inspections are based on a list of items that the state mandates. Typically "normal wear safety items" such as brakes, lights, suspension (mostly cars i.e. tie rods, ball joints, steering play, damaged windshields, etc).

I don't personally know of a traffic stop for other than the obvious lights not working or windshield being broken. Where the rest of the "regs" show up is in some attorney's legal clerks computer during a civil suit or a DA's assistants computer when seeking a legal penalty for a fatal MVA.

Don't think for a moment that if someone is involved in a "wrongful death" suit that they wouldn't be looking for that. Regardless of the intent, any attorney would be pleading to a jury that the alteration of "bla, bla, bla" was a factor and the defendant "willing and knowingly" made, or had made these alterations. These arguments would be submitted to a jury that doesn't know an RV from a construction portable office from a mobile home. These jurors would decide culpability and damages. So it boils down to 2 major factors, the jury and how much time and money the attorney is willing to spend on pretrial discovery.

In the case of a civil trial it boils down to the money available (either in insurance or assets) and the how the jury in that particular court typically finds.

In the DA's side, they pretty much have "unlimited funds" in comparison to the citizenry or PD's office and all the time in the world if they want.

Again these are my opinions based on my observations. My observations are these:
When we moved to the county we live in it was still very rural but growing rapidly. Everyone was pretty much called for jury duty in regular fashion. I served several juries over the first 15-18 years until the population was sufficient for a larger jury pool. During the late 1990's I had the "privilege" of serving on the Fed Grand Jury in Baltimore twice, each time was an 18 month stint which required 1 8 hr. day per week. I think I witnessed ham sandwiches and small dogs get indited.

These are my experiences, yours may be very different.
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Old 05-03-2020, 07:31 AM   #49
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Jeez, I built my own airplane and certify it legal and safe to fly.

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Originally Posted by flybouy View Post
The way I see it it's mainly a result of our society being over litigious and the accepted idea that someone must "pay" for your loss (either real or imagined). Combine that with an overzealous government that wants to regulate everything and doesn't understand how most of it works.

Don't get me wrong, if someone (individual or company) does undo harm then they should be penalized but good gracious the television just bombards use with Lawyer commercials telling us how to get rich. Regulations are necessary but what seems to be missing is the good old common sense.

Wasn't that many years ago that you could go to a welding shop and get a hitch made or a modification to "beef up" a suspension. There were "spring shops" that would re-arch or add a leaf. Those places are disappearing and I miss them. Typically it was owned and operated by a guy that wasn't an MIT engineer, may or may not have been a certified welder, but knew what you needed, could "rig it up" and if it was going to get you into trouble tell you no and refuse to do it. His most valuable skill was the implementation of common sense. They don't teach that at the "trade schools" or certification programs unfortunately. Now everyone must be "certified" and become "technicians or specialists" . That's a great word. I saw a news bit last night on "Certified Pre-Owned Cars" and how most of them are meaningless. By definition, they are certifying that someone bought the car, used it, and now it's for sale again. And people are eating it up.

I'll take a a person that's experienced that's got common sense but that's a rapidly dying breed these days.

JMHO
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Old 05-03-2020, 07:35 AM   #50
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Jeez, I built my own airplane and certify it legal and safe to fly.
You left out the details.

https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/gen_av/.../amateur_regs/
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Old 05-03-2020, 07:40 AM   #51
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Nonsense that is not the way it works rebuilding and modding old cars.

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Probably because the owner found a certified modifier to approve it.
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Old 05-03-2020, 07:42 AM   #52
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Lifted truck/trailer

I had hoped to hear more on this thread about equalization of the 5th wheel to the lifted truck. I too have a lifted truck and would like my 5th wheel to be more level. Without getting into all of the fab work that has caused so much drama on this thread, is there a safe way to lift the 5th wheel a bit? So much weight has shifted to the rear that the front one is super light and it causes the kingpin to bounce the truck around a bit.

**sorry, I have no idea why the one picture is upside down, it wasn’t taken that way but every time I upload it here it does that.
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Old 05-03-2020, 07:52 AM   #53
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Which detail did I leave out? I built my airplane and I am the one that certifies it safe to fly. Yes a inspector looks at it when it is completed but he is not the one that certifies it safe, he could not care less if you take a tin can and make it fly it is up to me to make sure that tin can is safe. I do that by writing a statement in my log book that I certify this aircraft is safe. I have the repairman's certificate and can do all the work on my aircraft. I only bring this up because of the absurdity of saying someone cannot make a change on their vehicle to make it safer, we all know that the trailer manufacturers use the cheapest products they can find from tires to axles to electronics etc..

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Old 05-03-2020, 08:24 AM   #54
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Which detail did I leave out? I built my airplane and I am the one that certifies it safe to fly. Yes a inspector looks at it when it is completed but he is not the one that certifies it safe, he could not care less if you take a tin can and make it fly it is up to me to make sure that tin can is safe. I do that by writing a statement in my log book that I certify this aircraft is safe. I have the repairman's certificate and can do all the work on my aircraft. I only bring this up because of the absurdity of saying someone cannot make a change on their vehicle to make it safer, we all know that the trailer manufacturers use the cheapest products they can find from tires to axles to electronics etc..
I think you are missing the point. You certified it "safe" and someone who was obviously qualified and certified agreed that it was "safe". Was this "homebuilt" certified to take up passengers or was it classed as "experimental"? Was the aircraft built from a kit, plans, or was it solely your design/build?

I think you are comparing apples to oranges. JMHO
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Old 05-03-2020, 08:25 AM   #55
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I had hoped to hear more on this thread about equalization of the 5th wheel to the lifted truck. I too have a lifted truck and would like my 5th wheel to be more level. Without getting into all of the fab work that has caused so much drama on this thread, is there a safe way to lift the 5th wheel a bit? So much weight has shifted to the rear that the front one is super light and it causes the kingpin to bounce the truck around a bit.

**sorry, I have no idea why the one picture is upside down, it wasn’t taken that way but every time I upload it here it does that.
Most likely you second photo was taken with your phone rotated 180 deg. You can open it in most any viewing software, rotate it and save it.
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Old 05-03-2020, 08:31 AM   #56
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Does anyone read their vehicle’s certification label?

There is a list of equipment items in the vehicle certification regulation that can be changed without hindering the intent of vehicle certification without being certified. Tires, wheels, brakes, axles etc.. are on that list. Chassis modifications of any sort are not on that list.

"This vehicle conforms to all applicable US Federal motor vehicle safety standards in effect on the date of manufacturer."

See 49 CFR part 567, vehicle certification/modification.

Yes but owners are not prohibited from modifyiont their RV in the US. They just need to be sure to always go up in component strength.
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Old 05-03-2020, 08:33 AM   #57
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When changing tire size don't forget the distance between the tires in mylti-axle trailers. You might be able to go up but the distance between the tires is reduced by 1" for each 1" in tire OD
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Old 05-03-2020, 08:46 AM   #58
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Just for your information all homebuilt aircraft build by an individual are registered as a Experimental and can take up passengers if you have two seats or more. Also it does not matter if it is built from a kit or plans or my own design. Sorry to the op as this is not a homebuilt aircraft forum but after having built 4 aircraft I do know what I am talking about when it come to building and certifying a homebuilt aircraft. Done

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I think you are missing the point. You certified it "safe" and someone who was obviously qualified and certified agreed that it was "safe". Was this "homebuilt" certified to take up passengers or was it classed as "experimental"? Was the aircraft built from a kit, plans, or was it solely your design/build?

I think you are comparing apples to oranges. JMHO
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Old 05-03-2020, 08:49 AM   #59
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When changing tire size don't forget the distance between the tires in mylti-axle trailers. You might be able to go up but the distance between the tires is reduced by 1" for each 1" in tire OD
Why do you suppose this is an industry wide mandate?

Tire Size

To maintain tire safety, purchase new tires that are the same size as the vehicle’s original tires or another size recommended by the manufacturer. Look at the Tire and Loading Information label, or the sidewall of the tire you are replacing to find this information. If you have any doubt about the correct size to choose, consult with the tire dealer.
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Old 05-03-2020, 09:01 AM   #60
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SO, we have gone from the OP's question to building hot rods, building airplanes, so how did we miss boat construction? Anyone build a boat that they want to share? As long as we are comparing apples to oranges to tangerines we may as well throw grapefruit in the mix.
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