110 heat tape on water lines under coroplast?

[cvin]

Maybe 4-6 weeks a year i have to worry about the water lines freezing

This is may and oct in flagstaff where it can hit 20 a few nights
And then occasionally down south We hit some freezing nights- 28-30 probably

Do not think it is cold enough to freeze the tanks
that being said i keep grey empty, black no more than half full for this cold weather and fresh water less than half if possible freezing temps
Propane furnance runs full time if needed- for me this is not a long enough time to worry about propane usage costs, that is a non issue

But would like to not have to worry about pipes breaking- the trailer is being run off the fresh water tank not hose hooked to faucet


Mobile rv guy put an outlet on the furnace duct closest to the fresh water tank and we put a correctly sized facon heater pad on the fresh water just because we were right there

I am still having the cold water line freeze up in anything below 30...

am hooked up to power and want to do all 110 volt
My outback has the “arctic barrier” package which i think is just coroplast

I am wanting to wrap the pipes with 110 volt heat tape, any issues with this or suggestions?
Can i just pick up some heat tape at home depot?
Thanks for any help

[sourdough]

Others will have differing opinions I'm sure but I say don't - in capitals.

I've not used heater tape with an RV except on LP tanks and fresh water hose BUT...

I have a home in the mountains where it can get really cold. When I bought it the house had all PVC water lines. 1st thing I did was put heater tape on them and insulate them because all they did was freeze constantly (pier and beam about 3' off the ground). Worked well for a few years then started having breaks every time I went up in winter seemingly. Upon investigating I found the heater tapes were actually baking the pvc and making it extremely brittle. All it took was a little pressure and the pvc would just shatter. Had enough of that and had everything changed to PEX. SO much better and I only have a short length that might freeze if it gets below zero and it's easy to get to so I can thaw it. I did something else though....

Took a length of PEX and just wrapped a heater tape around it and some insulation and put it in the basement as if it were part of the water supply when I replaced everything and just let it run to see what happens. After the 2nd winter I checked the PEX and it was hard so the heat was affecting it over time. Now I didn't have water running through the PEX which would have delayed the effect I'm sure, but, it still had a deteriorating effect on the PEX so I'm thinking find another way to heat the lines (heat lamps?). I've got about 15 new heater tapes of various lengths sitting in the basement if you decide to use them....but I'm not there and about to head to FL.

[JRTJH]

While it "can be done," I'd advise against using heat tape on plumbing that's in the area under the floor and sealed by the coroplast. IMHO, that's asking for trouble. There is much that can happen to damage or deteriorate those heat tapes and with no way to regularly inspect them, they can burn through a PEX pipe, rug against something sharp and once the insulation is rubbed away, you've got all kinds of potentials for electrical problems or even unsafe shock hazards.

I'd guess that the issue you're facing (a frozen pipe when temps drop below 30) is a PEX pipe section that's laying against a frame rail or in direct contact with an exposed metal frame crossmember. I'd suspect that if you put foam pipe insulation on the areas that are in close proximity to the exposed metal frame components, you can eliminate the frozen pipe and avoid the risks associated with heat tapes.

If the bottom of your trailer was open for easy, regular inspections of the heat tapes, I wouldn't hesitate to install them, but in a "hostile environment" of an RV underbelly, the unreliability of heat tapes is not a good idea.

[cvin]

Great info guys

After reading this leaning toward insulating all the pipes with the foam and seeing how hard it is to add some insulation to the bottom of the trailer

On to the home depot site to research insulation now....

[JRTJH]

As for insulating the PEX lines in the underbelly, remember that insulating foam wrap "insulates both ways"... By that I mean that it keeps "cold out" but it also keeps "heat out". What that means is that the foam wrap will protect the plumbing by keeping the cold out longer, but eventually it will freeze if the temp is low enough for long enough... The same holds true when the temperature rises. The foam wrap will keep the heat from reaching the PEX causing it to remain frozen for a longer period of time.....

So, I'd recommend NOT putting foam wrap insulation on "everything under the floor"... This is a situation where more is not better. Rather, I'd recommend putting the foam wrap on those PEX lines that are in contact with or very near the metal frame rails and crossmembers and do not put it around the PEX lines that are not in close proximity to the un-insulated metal. That way, the heat from the rising temperatures (after the sun comes up) can more easily reach the PEX and help warm any potentially colder areas that are closer to the metal frame components.

It's a matter of "picking and choosing" which parts need protection and using the unprotected parts to help offset the cold by more rapidly allowing their heat to reach the protected parts once the temps warm up....

I hope this makes some sense the way I presented it.

[cvin]

Totally makes sense

About to do some searches on adding insulation above the coroplast but any suggestions will be appreciated

Thinking those foam boards and wondering about putting the silver bubble wrap right on the coroplast on the inside???? I know it needs an air gap , thinking. There will be gaps from boards in the frame between the coroplast

Planning to sell this camper in the next couple of years but figure the labor/money is worth it if i have no broken pipes to repair between now and then

[JRTJH]

If it were me, I wouldn't insulate the underbelly any more than it was when delivered from the factory. My reasoning is this:

There are WAY more holes and voids in the coroplast and the frame rails than you'd imagine. Trying to "EFFECTIVELY" insulate the underbelly is an exercise in futility. You simply can't get insulation on the inside of the frame rails and they will present a 100% "cold soak" directly around any insulation you might apply to the coroplast. It's sort of like putting insulation in all the walls and then opening the windows in the coldest room.

What I'd suggest is closing up the holes in the frame rails that are visible. Use aluminum foil tape to cover those holes. That will prevent drafts into the underbelly. Then, apply a layer of aluminized bubble wrap (foil side up) that lays on the coroplast. That will provide a minimum amount of "dead air space" between the coroplast and the underbelly but the aluminum layer on the bubble wrap will reflect any heat that's radiated downward, forcing it back up, onto the exposed parts of the PEX which will allow that heat to travel along the PEX, under the foam wrapped PEX and help slow the loss of heat in the protected PEX lines....

As with heat taking longer to thaw "foam wrapped PEX lines" heat will take longer to thaw the entire underbelly in an "overly insulated trailer" once the sun comes up and the temps rise. Over insulating will delay warming in the mornings just as under-insulating will hasten freezing when the temperatures fall.

[Archergodwin]

I ran thermostat controlled Frost King tape on my pex lines for my kitchen island, and those lines drop out from under the floor ( above the coroplast) down the frame rail and then back up through the floor into the island. They would freeze if it got down to about 20deg outside. I have had them taped and foam insulated for about 6 years now. No issues. NOTE: The frost king tape you do not 'wrap' around the tubing... you lay it next to the tubing in parallel and in good contact. The built in thermostat controls it pretty well.

[cvin]

Wow, lots to think about

Have read 4-5 hours on insulating rv underbellys
Lots of conflicting info

Here is a thought
When in the colder temps like 15-30 would i just be better off to get 100 foot of heated hose/add heat tape and have it trickle rather than run off the tank?

Grey tank can be open to the ground here so wont fill up

The hot water line has frozen some but it is usually the cold

Looks like my next camper may be an arctic fox or outdoors rv, would rather pay up front and have all this done for the little bit of time it is in freezing weather

[notanlines]

I don't have any solutions to your problem, but I do have a couple observations. Danny recommended staying away from heat tape, but remember that his were on 24 hours a day, probably days on end. Yours would only be for a few hours, and just for a few days. I wouldn't worry about that for just a few hours here and there.
I would avoid the trickle of cold water. What if the temp's reached 20 degrees and little by little your drain hose froze? Hmmmm?

[Archergodwin]

Originally Posted by cvin

...
Looks like my next camper may be an arctic fox or outdoors rv, would rather pay up front and have all this done for the little bit of time it is in freezing weather

It is my opinion, from what I've seen... that the whole 'four seasons', 'arctic' or whatever their marketing wants to call it - package, is just that - a marketing ploy. If you do buy, make them put in writing what they guarantee the lowest temperature the rig is rated to.... dollars to donuts, they will not put anything in writing.. nothing. I think most are only guaranteed down to 32deg, when you get into the fine print, regardless of what the 'package' name is.

[flybouy]

Do you move your camper? If you do then I'd avoid the heat tape on all the pipes. My concern would be the heat tapes getting chafed from the vibrations and wearing down to the conductors. Heat tapes at Home Depot and the like are made for "sticks and bricks" buildings that don't move.
If you full time on a "permanent" space then there are other alternatives.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by notanlines

I don't have any solutions to your problem, but I do have a couple observations. Danny recommended staying away from heat tape, but remember that his were on 24 hours a day, probably days on end. Yours would only be for a few hours, and just for a few days. I wouldn't worry about that for just a few hours here and there.
I would avoid the trickle of cold water. What if the temp's reached 20 degrees and little by little your drain hose froze? Hmmmm?

Jim is right. I plugged the heater tapes in in Oct. and unplugged them in May so you could probably work around that. Just wanted to point out the potential damage they could do unchecked. As far as the water hose, I carry a heated hose. When it's going to be below freezing I plug it in and it really works - no frozen water, no running trickle.

[cvin]

still debating on what to do

but now having more issues with the furnace...

on a side note, I have the Tattletale alarm and contacted them to see if there was a temp sensor that can be attached to that and text me if the camper hits a certain temp

they do have one and I will install it Friday when I get back to the camper

there are other cellular sensors that do this but you have to pay a monthly fee, I am already paying a cell fee for the tattletale so try convenient they have one that can be added

[wiredgeorge]

Originally Posted by sourdough

Others will have differing opinions I'm sure but I say don't - in capitals.

I've not used heater tape with an RV except on LP tanks and fresh water hose BUT...

I have a home in the mountains where it can get really cold. When I bought it the house had all PVC water lines. 1st thing I did was put heater tape on them and insulate them because all they did was freeze constantly (pier and beam about 3' off the ground). Worked well for a few years then started having breaks every time I went up in winter seemingly. Upon investigating I found the heater tapes were actually baking the pvc and making it extremely brittle. All it took was a little pressure and the pvc would just shatter. Had enough of that and had everything changed to PEX. SO much better and I only have a short length that might freeze if it gets below zero and it's easy to get to so I can thaw it. I did something else though....

Took a length of PEX and just wrapped a heater tape around it and some insulation and put it in the basement as if it were part of the water supply when I replaced everything and just let it run to see what happens. After the 2nd winter I checked the PEX and it was hard so the heat was affecting it over time. Now I didn't have water running through the PEX which would have delayed the effect I'm sure, but, it still had a deteriorating effect on the PEX so I'm thinking find another way to heat the lines (heat lamps?). I've got about 15 new heater tapes of various lengths sitting in the basement if you decide to use them....but I'm not there and about to head to FL.

I have a 3000 gallon water storage tank at my place and wrap the stand pipe with a electrical cord heating element that only gets warm (not hot) if it senses freezing temps (or thereabouts). The stand pipe is then wrapped in fiberglass insulation and then that tin foil type insulation and if you leave it plugged in all the time the electrical cord heating element will last for years since we don't see freezing all that much. The heat from this stuff is such that you can put your hand on the cord and it won't get burned; the cord is just warm. They sell it at the TruValue.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by wiredgeorge

I have a 3000 gallon water storage tank at my place and wrap the stand pipe with a electrical cord heating element that only gets warm (not hot) if it senses freezing temps (or thereabouts). The stand pipe is then wrapped in fiberglass insulation and then that tin foil type insulation and if you leave it plugged in all the time the electrical cord heating element will last for years since we don't see freezing all that much. The heat from this stuff is such that you can put your hand on the cord and it won't get burned; the cord is just warm. They sell it at the TruValue.

Yep. That's what I thought. I could watch the little light on the end of the heater tape come off and on depending on the temp so never thought a thing about it causing harm.....but they did. In several places. Never would have thought it. It was 1/2" pvc/cpvc.

Edit: the only thing I can think of is that they had to come on and just stay on for days or weeks at a time in the middle of winter so maybe they just kept "baking". You could see where the piping was discolored to brown/dark brown where it got so warm.

[Archergodwin]

PVC is only rated for a peak temp of 140degF. CPVC is rate for 200 as is PEX. Why it's important to use a thermostat regulated tape... and also make sure that thermostat 'button' is against the tubing you are heating. I think that's key.

[hankaye]

cvin, Howdy;

In the stickies at the top of the section (Mods & Upgrades is a post from a
member named "geo". He goes into great detail about prepping for Cold weather.

My own solution, both when I lived in the San Pitch Valley of Utah (temps down
into -30's and a few -40's), for a few winters and here in N.M. ( only down to
the teens a few times each winter), has been to heat tape the water hose
from the spigot to the inlet with foam tube insulation and Skirting to keep
the wind from sucking the heat from under the RV.
I've noticed that the water lines are laid against the heat ducting and they
stay comfortable in that environment. Sometimes a "less is more" approach
works better. Not saying that anyone's solution is better, just you need to
find what works best for you. Plenty of information to work with, have fun.

hank

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by Archergodwin

PVC is only rated for a peak temp of 140degF. CPVC is rate for 200 as is PEX. Why it's important to use a thermostat regulated tape... and also make sure that thermostat 'button' is against the tubing you are heating. I think that's key.

Don't forget "installation mistakes" in where and how you install the heat tape. If the thermostat sensor is located "touching" or close to an un-insulated steel I-Beam, it will "sense colder temps" than if it's located "inside an insulated cover, only touching the PEX tubing, it won't protect the PEX that 3' away from the thermostat, runs against that same I-Beam and freezes at that spot, even though the thermostat says it's 40F (where it's located)... So, depending on "how meticulous" (yes, meticulous) you are in designing and adhering to the installation of the heat tape, you can have a "heat tape that's functional and protects the PEX" or you can have a "heat tape that always senses cold temperatures and never turns off, burning up the PEX"....

While I'm not suggesting that some people might read this thread and "throw a heat tape on some tubing, thinking it'll help" I am suggesting that we could easily have people reading this thread with the intent of improving their cold weather capability who don't know the difference in a #1 or #2 Phillips or can't tell a crescent wrench from a box end wrench....

So, I'd end this with a caution to anyone contemplating an "easy fix to frozen pipes in a barely insulated travel trailer" that there are pitfalls in taking the easy way out without considering ALL of the implications before jumping at any conclusion as "Hell yeah, let's do that, it'll fix all our problems"......

[Archergodwin]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

While I'm not suggesting that some people might read this thread and "throw a heat tape on some tubing, thinking it'll help" I am suggesting that we could easily have people reading this thread with the intent of improving their cold weather capability who don't know the difference in a #1 or #2 Phillips or can't tell a crescent wrench from a box end wrench....

John, please know that I'm not 'firing back' at you. I'm just addressing what I construe in your comment

The same can be said for any other thread in forum sections related to repair/maint./upgrades/mods. But if we are worried about people not reading the instructions for the installation of a device, or lack of skills to attempt something... how are we to know that? (except for tell-tale wording in a post maybe ) and.. because these forums exist, there is a certain amount of 'expected knowledge' from people that visit these forums... otherwise they probably would not be allowed to legally exist. (the forums, not the people )

Really not meaning to be sarcastic at all, and honestly wanting to know: How meticulous does the site want us to be, in describing the modification or upgrade?

All you can do in a forum is share your experience with item A, doing B modification/upgrade/repair. If someone has a similar or same 'A', then it's as close as you'll get to the 'same thing'. Hardly anybody has the exact same 'A', and perhaps we need to place a disclaimer at the beginning of our posts?

I think the best you get from a forum is a real world example of what someone else did, in a similar situation as yourself, and you need to research your own situation to see what might transfer over and discard what doesn't fit.

To do something immediately after someone else does something, can be inviting trouble, absolutely. If you like what someone else has done... then you start researching that to see if someone has done that on your item 'A', and if not, you research some more.

I realize that I am probably 'different' than most, and will research/plan a project up to a year or more in advance.

As the quote goes:
"Whatever is worth doing at all, is worth doing well."
- Philip Stanhope, 4th Earl of Chesterfield

In the case of this heat tape on underside lines, mine have been heat taped for 6 years now. I did install my heat tape sandwiched between both hot and cold lines to maximize heat transfer from the tape, and to eliminate hot spots, and then pipe-foam insulated. But the thermostat is snugly against the water line. And you are correct, the tape doesn't help the line that is 3 ft away... but the line that is 3 ft away doesn't need the tape because it's up inside the coach.