Cougar Half-Ton Fifth Wheels

famoussenior · 09-14-2018, 05:45 AM

Surprised by my DW's interest in getting a fifth wheel, we went to see if the Cougar Half-Ton fifth wheels are light enough for my 2013 1500 Dodge Ram to pull. I'm far from an expert at determining a safe towing maximum and know there are a lot of factors that enter in the equation. I really would appreciate input from the forum so here is some data: According to the Dodge dealer, my truck is rated to pull 8,850 max dry trailer weight. The max payload weight for my truck is 1,580. All is based on my 5.7L engine and 3.55 rear end. My goal is to find a HT towable fifth wheel without upgrading my truck to a 2500. By the way, a few of the Cougars I saw on the lot have a max dry weight and hitch weight that is within my truck's maximums but I remain leery.

Based on the above, what would be considered as a safe max trailer weight and payload to pull with my truck?

66joej · 09-14-2018, 06:37 AM

Pin/tongue weights are listed dry (nothing in the trailer). For instance my TT has a dry tongue of 550# yet when loaded for camping it comes in at 880#.
As you can see dry weights are a bit misleading.
I would not pull a 5er with a 1/2 ton truck.YMMV

**JRTJH** · 09-14-2018, 07:02 AM

Remaining leery is good.... Do some "easy math" before you buy !!!

You say your payload is 1580 pounds. That figure is full fuel tank and a 150 pound driver. So, from that, deduct your "additional weights" starting with the your weight in excess of 150 pounds. Then deduct your DW's weight, any and all "personal cargo", mats, tools, coolers, GPS units, seat covers, running boards, spray in or truck bed liners, mud flaps, etc that you've added since the truck was new. Then deduct 150 pounds for your fifth wheel hitch. What's left is your maximum fifth wheel pin weight.

Typically, most fifth wheel pin weights range from 15%-25% of total trailer weight. The data on the Keystone website and in their brochures is EMPTY trailer weight for the standard trailer with no options, no battery and no propane in the tanks. So, you'll need to add 60 pounds for propane and 100 pounds for two batteries to the weight, just to tow the empty trailer home. Almost all of that weight is "pin weight" since the propane tanks and batteries are in the forward storage compartment area.

Most people add at least 1000 pounds of cargo/fluids to any trailer when towing, so you'll also be adding a portion of that to the pin weight, which is directly taken from your truck payload.

To be "on the safe side" many calculate anticipated pin weights by using the trailer GVW (shipping weight + cargo capacity) and using 20% of that GVW as the pin weight.

As an example, if you weight 200 and your DW weighs 150, you have a 40 pound dog and carry 100 pounds of tools in your truck, have added 50 pounds of accessories to the truck (running boards and a LineX spray in bed), you'll have about 390 pounds to deduct from the payload. Add your hitch and you're about 540 pounds of "deductions from payload" So in reality, your 1580 pounds is 1040 pounds. Assuming you'll never add a generator to your truck bed, never carry firewood or a 5 gallon fuel tank, never throw in an axe or any 2x8 blocks for leveling, the maximum pin weight your truck can carry is 1040. If you do add camping stuff to the truck bed (most of us do) then that comes off the maximum also....

If you use the data on the Keystone website for the smallest Cougar Half Ton, the 25RES, you'll see that it is going to overload your truck.

The EMPTY specs for that trailer are: Pin: 1500 GVW: 10,000
Anticipated specs: Pin weight about 20% of GVW: 2000

Even if you could manage to keep the pin weight to 15%, with an 8800 pound maximum trailer rating, the empty trailer weighs 7500 pounds. Add your hitch, propane, batteries, camping equipment and you're going to be at/over your maximum trailer capacity as well as being over your maximum payload....

Simply put, while your truck can "PULL" that trailer (make it go forward while hitched) it's not a capable vehicle to actually "TOW" a fifth wheel in the Cougar Half Ton line.

Are there people who do it? Yes, and some of them are successful, until they have truck problems or get stranded with an overheated transmission or have axle problems, etc.

There's also people standing on the beach in NC, watching the waves and waiting for the storm surge.... Risk takers typically aren't "safety conscious"....

**flybouy** · 09-14-2018, 07:05 AM

Many,many posts regarding this, do a search on the forum and a large volume of reading will be at your fingertips. Start off with writing down the weight restrictions from the yellow sticker on the truck. That is pertinent information on YOUR truck as it was delivered, not a sales pamphlet from the dealership.

wiredgeorge · 09-14-2018, 07:28 AM

Not meaning to dispute any of the info but my personal opinion is that "1/2 Ton Towable" is a marketing jingle more than a fact. There likely are 1/2 ton trucks that if optioned correctly may be able to tow SOME of these units marketed as 1/2 Ton Towable but MOST 1/2 ton trucks are going to over their head. I am not saying you couldn't pull it down a straight flat country road but your truck will struggle in hills, you will not have any margin of safety and it will be tiresome to drive.

Count it as a blessing that your wife wants a 5ver and start looking for a more appropriate truck if you can budget it or if not, look for a smaller bumper pull; most gals will like the condo like interiors of a 5ver over a smaller bumper pull so use this when begging for that truck to pull it. Remember that if you are not going to be doing full time pulling, you might just be able to get away with a gas engine and used truck. 5vers are great to pull and provide a lot of the comforts of home when camping! Good luck.

**chuckster57** · 09-14-2018, 07:56 AM

Dry weight: I may look into what Keystone does. Our sales staff went to Grand Designs seminar recently and dry weight came up. Grand designs has a battery and filled propane bottles that are placed on the unit at the plant scales for an accurate tongue weight.

I don’t know that others are doing it, but I would suspect that it might be something more and more are going to do.

**JRTJH** · 09-14-2018, 08:30 AM

This is the email I received from Keystone CS in December 2017 explaining their published weights. While things may change on a daily basis, I haven't heard anything about Keystone changing their procedures.

Bettina Rogers [email protected]e
To jrtjh

Hi John,

Yes, that is correct.

Bettina Rogers
Keystone RV Company
Keystone Shoppers Konnection
574-535-2488
[email protected]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: jrtjh
Sent: Today 2:58:04 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Keystone RV Shopper's Konnection

Thank you for your response. If I understand you correctly, the hitch weight as it appears on your website does NOT include a battery or propane, but it does include the weight of the empty propane cylinders. Is that correct? Thanks much !!!

-----Original Message-----
From: Bettina Rogers <[email protected]>
To: jrtjh
Sent: Tue, Dec 12, 2017 2:16 pm
Subject: Keystone RV Shopper's Konnection

Hi John,

Thank you for contacting Keystone RV Shopper's Konnection. You are correct, the GVWR (gross vehicle weight rating) is the shipping weight plus the carrying capacity. The shipping weight is when you pick it up from the dealer-nothing added to it. The carrying capacity is the maximum amount of weight it can carry due to the axle size. The hitch weight is the amount of a trailers weight that rests on the tow vehicles hitch (also empty). When you are adding weight to the RV you will want to distribute it evenly. Yes, add the weight (100 #) to the trailer weight. Please let me know, if you have further questions. Happy Holidays,

Bettina Rogers
Keystone RV Company
Keystone Shoppers Konnection
574-535-2488
[email protected]

Howie · 09-14-2018, 08:42 AM

Good advise above. The reality is that you will have to be so careful with a 1500 not only in what 5er you purchase but you will have to be very mindful of what and how you load. Yes, you can pull it but is your or your DW's life or health worth it? Upgrade to a 2500 as I would bet you could sell your 1500 and buy a used 2500 for not a great difference in cost. Life is too short to take needless risks.

I was recently in your shoes and I decided to upgrade the truck first. Ended up buying a 350 as there wasn't any difference is what I found used. Did I need a 350, no, but I am totally comfortable in that I made a safe and sound decision. Temping fate is for teenagers and fools.

bob91yj · 09-14-2018, 09:12 AM

It's not as much the "go" that I would worry about, but the "whoa" that would be the biggest issue IMO.

rhagfo · 09-14-2018, 11:20 AM

While I would rather see someone towing a lite 30’ 5er and be slightly over GVWR and still within axle and tire ratings, than towing a 30’ TT. The reason is much more stable towing package.
In the OP’s case he will not be too happy getting near max tow rating with 3.55 gears. Then there is thee 1,500# payload, just not enough to get pin, hitch, and people even if you go over a couple hundred pounds.

newcar16 · 09-14-2018, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by famoussenior

Surprised by my DW's interest in getting a fifth wheel, we went to see if the Cougar Half-Ton fifth wheels are light enough for my 2013 1500 Dodge Ram to pull. I'm far from an expert at determining a safe towing maximum and know there are a lot of factors that enter in the equation. I really would appreciate input from the forum so here is some data: According to the Dodge dealer, my truck is rated to pull 8,850 max dry trailer weight. The max payload weight for my truck is 1,580. All is based on my 5.7L engine and 3.55 rear end. My goal is to find a HT towable fifth wheel without upgrading my truck to a 2500. By the way, a few of the Cougars I saw on the lot have a max dry weight and hitch weight that is within my truck's maximums but I remain leery.

Based on the above, what would be considered as a safe max trailer weight and payload to pull with my truck?

We have a 2016 couger 26RLS. I used to tow it with a 2013 silverado 5.7, trailer towing package and 3.42 rear end. The truck pulled it fine around indiana and Michigan where we do most of our camping. We took a trip to Tennessee and the truck struggled in the mountains

travelin texans · 09-14-2018, 01:05 PM

You've done the right thing by doing some research beforehand!
One thing to remember, DO NOT believe ANYTHING your rv or truck dealer tells you about what or how much you can tow, they're there to sell & don't know/don't care if you can/can't tow whatever safely as long as they sell it. The old saying "if their lips are moving".

famoussenior · 09-14-2018, 02:20 PM

Many thanks for the great input from the forum. It is apparent to me I have two options: forget about the fifth wheel and keep my pull trailer, or upgrade my 1500 truck and get what I need for the fiver of my choice. I am in the majority who feel safety is more important than any other factor.
Again, thanks to all who responded. This is a great forum!

wiredgeorge · 09-14-2018, 03:00 PM

Howdy famoussenior! See we are neighbors (well kinda). I live by Medina Lake! One thing you might want to consider... there were a LOT more 5vers made a few years ago that weighed a whole lot less than the big guys of 2018. My Cougar is 27' and weighs about 6500 lbs dry. I have a 3/4 ton but it pulls real easy and since I do most of my camping in the Hill Country that was a major consideration plus we have a slot on my property where I park (have a full hook up) and couldn't go much, if any over 30'. Our trailer is a rear kitchen with a great floorplan and I have been tinkering to get it set up to make it mine. This weekend I am going to add a TV mount so the TV can come out and turn towards our Lazyboy recliner love seat some and we can hopefully watch our new Dish sat TV comfortably when we camp next weekend at the Utopia River Resort (in Utopia). Cheers!

mhbell · 09-14-2018, 07:04 PM

See my sig. I bought a 2016 Cougar half ton and was going to pull it with a F150 1/2 ton truck. No way. When I ran it across the scales with full propane and batteries along with everything that I carry in the truck and the 5th wheel. I found that my pin weight was 2400 Lbs, not 1580. Lucky for me I anticipated this and had purchased a F250 Super Duty. Do yourself a favor and take your truck to a cat scale and weigh it with hitch passengers full fuel and everything else you would carry in it. I think you will find that the load (trailer) you can safely carry is less than what the fifth wheel will weigh with everything in it that you want to carry. Sure your truck would tow it, but not safely and it would be a dog in the smallest hills. Been there done that.
Mel

rshipyor · 09-15-2018, 10:49 AM

My wife and I bought a 2018 cougar half ton 25res fifth wheel and pull it with our 2014 Chevy Silverado 1500 z71 and have no problem whatsoever. Just do your homework on weights of rv and hitch and what your truck can handle.

**sourdough** · 09-15-2018, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rshipyor

My wife and I bought a 2018 cougar half ton 25res fifth wheel and pull it with our 2014 Chevy Silverado 1500 z71 and have no problem whatsoever. Just do your homework on weights of rv and hitch and what your truck can handle.

Have you checked those weights? I ask because that is a 10k gvw trailer which would equate to about a 2k pin weight give or take. I wasn't aware of a 2014 Chevy 1500 that had a 3k payload??? Did I miss something?

I may be missing something, and weight slips and detailed info about your truck would be beneficial, but the OP is trying to err on the safe side and not go with "I pull it with zero problems". Just wanting to clarify.

fjr vfr · 09-15-2018, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sourdough

Have you checked those weights? I ask because that is a 10k gvw trailer which would equate to about a 2k pin weight give or take. I wasn't aware of a 2014 Chevy 1500 that had a 3k payload??? Did I miss something?

I may be missing something, and weight slips and detailed info about your truck would be beneficial, but the OP is trying to err on the safe side and not go with "I pull it with zero problems". Just wanting to clarify.

I have to agree with what you're saying. The web site lists a pin weight of 1610 lbs empty. That means about 2k full. Now ad in 200lbs for the 5th wheel, 350 lbs for two passengers the payload is now 2550 lbs with nothing else in the truck. This is for sure way over the payload capacity and the trucks gvwr.

Personally I cringe every time I hear the words "1/2 ton towable." It is such BS. There are very few 1/2 ton trucks and very few 5th wheel trailers that are compatible....and I mean very few! I won't say none, but personally I wouldn't even consider it....just MHO.

**JRTJH** · 09-15-2018, 07:31 PM

The Cougar Half Ton 32DBH is more than most diesel 3/4 ton trucks can handle and would challenge a 1 ton gas truck. And it's not the biggest nor the heaviest "Cougar Half Ton"....

At 36'2", a 9300 pound empty weight with a empty pin weight of 1950 pounds, it's a 4 slide fifth wheel with a bunk house with a GVW of 11,500 pounds, so it's not marketed as a "couple's trailer". It's designed to sleep 4 (per advertised specs) but actually sleeps 2 in the bedroom, 2 in the bunkhouse, 2 on the fold out sofa and 1 or 2 on the dinette. That's a sleeping capacity for a "large family" with a crewcab half ton truck, 3 kids, a dog and bikes on the rear trailer rack...

If someone with a family or 5 or 6 were considering this trailer, they're in the 1 ton truck range with this "half ton towable" trailer and well beyond the payload of a 3/4 ton truck.

A tragedy in the works if anyone is foolish enough to take the "half ton towable" into the sales pitch......

notanlines · 09-16-2018, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rshipyor

My wife and I bought a 2018 cougar half ton 25res fifth wheel and pull it with our 2014 Chevy Silverado 1500 z71 and have no problem whatsoever. Just do your homework on weights of rv and hitch and what your truck can handle.

I believe Danny (Sourdough) was being relatively kind when he failed to ask about your homework and scale slips you have. Maybe you could post a picture of your last slip and the OP could learn by your actions.....thanks.
Jim in Memphis

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