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Old 08-24-2016, 08:37 AM   #1
Silver Britches
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Surge protection on generator(s)?

I have two Honda EU2000 generators paralleled together and am about to dry camp in downtown Atlanta for the upcoming Georgia-North Carolina game. Do I need surge protection between the generators and my Bullet 243BHS? My first thought is that they can't generate enough of a surge to damage anything, but I'm not as well-versed on this as I should be.
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Old 08-24-2016, 08:45 AM   #2
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Generators have an "open ground" system and quite often won't function with a surge/voltage protector monitoring system. You're right, as for the "surge" portion, unless you're using a "mega-watt" system (more than 10K) you probably will never have the capacity to generate enough voltage or wattage to damage your RV system. If the generator has a "green light" you should be "good to go"......
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Old 08-24-2016, 08:48 AM   #3
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Since I have a surge protector for obvious reasons, I always use it when connecting the gens, in parallel or individually.

Like using a water pressure regulator, I won't connect the trailer to anything without the surge protector.
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Old 08-24-2016, 08:51 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by JRTJH View Post
Generators have an "open ground" system and quite often won't function with a surge/voltage protector monitoring system. You're right, as for the "surge" portion, unless you're using a "mega-watt" system (more than 10K) you probably will never have the capacity to generate enough voltage or wattage to damage your RV system. If the generator has a "green light" you should be "good to go"......
Nice to know. Apparently, I have been overprotective of my electrical system when running the gen(s).
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Old 08-24-2016, 11:05 AM   #5
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Nice to know. Apparently, I have been overprotective of my electrical system when running the gen(s).
Much better to "overprotect" than to "underprotect".... I'm surprised that your system isn't giving you an "open ground fault" when connected to the generators. My monitor system "shuts down" and I need to manually over-ride the "ground fault" in order to get power past the monitor device.

That said, the generator is not capable of producing "high voltage" conditions, so an "overvoltage situation is unlikely (unless lightening strikes your system) and the generator also has a "low voltage" (overload) monitor circuit and will shut itself off, which is the same function as the "low voltage monitor" in your line monitor circuit within your surge protector.

So, much of the "protective circuitry" found in a "line monitor surge protector" is "double duty" as those circuits are also a part of almost every "digital inverter generator".

It's sort of like using the factory TPMS system on a truck and then adding "screw-on" valve stem monitors for an additional TPMS. It won't "hurt anything" to have the double protection, but if something "bad" happens, you're still going to find out from either system, so having two won't tell you "twice as fast" or "twice as loud" (in most situations) ...

ADDED: Here's one "fairly easy to understand" explanation of what's happening in the "open ground" generator when connected to an RV with an "open ground" electrical system: http://noshockzone.org/generator-gro...utral-bonding/
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Old 08-24-2016, 12:50 PM   #6
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Yeah, I'm getting a red light and the note about the ground, but it works. From now on I won't use the surge protector when connected to the generator(s) now that I know how it all works.

I always try to learn something new each day and this qualifies. Thanks.
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Old 08-24-2016, 08:34 PM   #7
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If you want to power your rig using a surge protection device, make a neutral-ground plug to plug into your generator. This will fool the protection device into thinking your power source has a ground. See this article for more info:
http://www.rvdoctor.com/2012/10/my-h...-power-my.html
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Old 08-25-2016, 05:00 AM   #8
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All good info. So, I'm set up at camp - jacks and landing gear down on wooden blocks - TV disconnected - plugged into our Champion 3100 inverter generator.
If a short circuit develops between HOT and GRD in our coffee maker and we touch the coffee maker are we protected with the floating ground? I don't plan on using the portable SurgeGaurd when using the generator. Do I need to make the jumpered Edison plug? I get that the ground wires are all connected all the way back to the generator - but that is where it ends - in other words - if we grab onto an appliance (hair drier, fan, etc) that has a hot to ground short; do we become the ground? As stated, the camper is insulated from an earth ground due to being on blocks (ignoring ambient moisture from dew or sprinklers). Have never worried about this in the past (ignorance is bliss).
Hard to imagine that Champion would even sell a generator specifically for RV use if this were a major safety issue. Any and all input welcomed -
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Old 08-25-2016, 05:44 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by jsmith948 View Post
All good info. So, I'm set up at camp - jacks and landing gear down on wooden blocks - TV disconnected - plugged into our Champion 3100 inverter generator.
If a short circuit develops between HOT and GRD in our coffee maker and we touch the coffee maker are we protected with the floating ground? I don't plan on using the portable SurgeGaurd when using the generator. Do I need to make the jumpered Edison plug? I get that the ground wires are all connected all the way back to the generator - but that is where it ends - in other words - if we grab onto an appliance (hair drier, fan, etc) that has a hot to ground short; do we become the ground? As stated, the camper is insulated from an earth ground due to being on blocks (ignoring ambient moisture from dew or sprinklers). Have never worried about this in the past (ignorance is bliss).
Hard to imagine that Champion would even sell a generator specifically for RV use if this were a major safety issue. Any and all input welcomed -
In the "old days" when tools had metal casings and the ground wire within the tool was physically connected to the tool's metal case, then yes, you'd get "electrocuted" if there was a direct short between the tool's hot wire and ground (or neutral). However, today, all tools and almost all appliances are "double insulated" meaning that they have plastic casings (just like the terminal end of your cord plug) and you can touch the case without getting shocked even if there were a "short developed". For almost all tools and small appliances, you'll find they no longer have a ground pin on the plug, (ie: now they only have 2 pins on the plug) which would indicate that even with a "direct short between hot and neutral, the appliance case offers insulation to anyone holding the appliance. Also, as soon as that "short occurs", the circuit breakers in both the RV circuit breaker panel and in the generator overload system "should" open, protecting the user.

So, in actual use, you have no reason to "fear electrocution" with an open ground generator. If, however, you "add a home-made plug" to the generator and "bond the ground to neutral" you would run a risk of electrocution if there is a direct short (as you describe) and you grab hold of the generator chassis. That's why I omitted even suggesting a "home-made plug" in my discussion. That type of device will "solve the red light problem" (ground fault on the voltage monitor) but opens another even bigger potential risk, at the generator....

If I were you, I'd just "shut off the power monitor" and rely on the "double insulation" (plastic housing) on the appliance and leave the generator in the "open ground" condition just as Champion supplied it to you..... Otherwise, with the "home-made plug" you really need an 8' copper or brass grounding rod driven into the ground (next to the generator) and that "now bonded ground generator" needs to be grounded to "earth ground" through that rod......
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Old 08-25-2016, 06:29 AM   #10
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Thanks for the clarification. I am guilty of sometimes over thinking an issue, especially when safety is at stake. We will continue ones we have been.
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Old 08-25-2016, 06:54 AM   #11
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Surge protection on generator(s)?

Two issues in play here: 1. the power supply (generator) not bonding the neutral and ground -and- 2. no ground rod (no ground).

The EMS can tell the neutral and ground are not bonded. Using a plug that bonds them isn't a hack, it really is bonding them. However, the second step is to ground the generator to earth via a ground rod. Without grounding the generator, you aren't completely safe, however the EMS will be happy.

Keep in mind though, I have never seen anyone actually ground their generator... so I wouldn't lose sleep over it.

Just keep your appliances and their cords in good shape. Same goes for your camper's electrical components (receptacles, etc.).


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Old 08-25-2016, 07:38 AM   #12
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Two issues in play here: 1. the power supply (generator) not bonding the neutral and ground -and- 2. no ground rod (no ground).

The EMS can tell the neutral and ground are not bonded. Using a plug that bonds them isn't a hack, it really is bonding them. However, the second step is to ground the generator to earth via a ground rod. Without grounding the generator, you aren't completely safe, however the EMS will be happy.

Keep in mind though, I have never seen anyone actually ground their generator... so I wouldn't lose sleep over it.

Just keep your appliances and their cords in good shape. Same goes for your camper's electrical components (receptacles, etc.).


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And that is, in my opinion, the problem with the way people "fix" the EMS problem.... Many times, "they" (certainly nobody we know) do step 1 (install the plug to bond the grounds) without doing step 2. This leaves a "safety issue" if anything should happen to go wrong.....

I'm guessing, I don't know for sure, but that's probably why you don't find the "solution" (using the plug) in owner's manuals for Honda, Yamaha or Champion generators. So many times, (again my opinion) people who "halfway understand something" look for a solution, find it, read half the instructions, do the "hack" and get the results they were looking for, so "they" stop reading and never finish the solution..... Thus, a "bonded ground generator" is used to keep the EMS happy without grounding.... All is good, until the owner goes outside to "pull the generator under the awning in a rainstorm" and..................... YIKES !!!!!
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Old 08-25-2016, 07:46 AM   #13
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And that is, in my opinion, the problem with the way people "fix" the EMS problem.... Many times, "they" (certainly nobody we know) do step 1 (install the plug to bond the grounds) without doing step 2. This leaves a "safety issue" if anything should happen to go wrong.....

I'm guessing, I don't know for sure, but that's probably why you don't find the "solution" (using the plug) in owner's manuals for Honda, Yamaha or Champion generators. So many times, (again my opinion) people who "halfway understand something" look for a solution, find it, read half the instructions, do the "hack" and get the results they were looking for, so "they" stop reading and never finish the solution..... Thus, a "bonded ground generator" is used to keep the EMS happy without grounding.... All is good, until the owner goes outside to "pull the generator under the awning in a rainstorm" and..................... YIKES !!!!!
It would be nice, however, if the gen and/or the surge protector manufacturers would outline in the manual what you have described in these posts so that the consumer (who reads the documentation) would know "the rest of the story".
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Old 08-25-2016, 07:55 AM   #14
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It would be nice, however, if the gen and/or the surge protector manufacturers would outline in the manual what you have described in these posts so that the consumer (who reads the documentation) would know "the rest of the story".
In some aspects, yes, I agree with you, but with "lawyers involved" adding information often "opens the bucket of worms" and causes more problems than it provides information...

Sort of like Ford, GM or Chrysler adding the "survivability statistics" for seatbelt use in specific vehicles to the owners manual. Some may find the information beneficial in "understanding the system better". If they explained "all the information" would it help or harm the "dumbed down populace" and how could "greedy lawyers use the data to their advantage" ???? I'm not criticizing, just asking a question........
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Old 08-25-2016, 08:19 AM   #15
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In some aspects, yes, I agree with you, but with "lawyers involved" adding information often "opens the bucket of worms" and causes more problems than it provides information...

Sort of like Ford, GM or Chrysler adding the "survivability statistics" for seatbelt use in specific vehicles to the owners manual. Some may find the information beneficial in "understanding the system better". If they explained "all the information" would it help or harm the "dumbed down populace" and how could "greedy lawyers use the data to their advantage" ???? I'm not criticizing, just asking a question........
During my time in the airlines there was a point as two-pilot cockpits were coming into use that we still had flight engineers. The new hire position when hired was a flight engineer position. Well, one of the FE airplanes required more of an old-school systems knowledge. The company, partly due to the dwindling availability of professional flight engineers (PFE's), hired pilots without flight engineer ratings and called them Second Officers. These folks had never flown the flight engineer position, and many had minimal experience in large aircraft. Systems knowledge and understanding was minimal. They were having a problem passing the FAA systems oral exam, which typically lasted two hours. The company solution was to dumb down the systems manual. If it wasn't in the manual the feds couldn't ask the complicated systems question. As a check captain at the time I found this astounding.

Unfortunately, the trend was and is an industry standard response, particularly with todays highly automated aircraft. Systems understanding has been dumbed down along with the pilot's ability to be a pilot should the automation let the pilots down. Even with todays automation, there are times when a pilot needs to be a pilot.
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Old 08-25-2016, 08:36 AM   #16
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You're very VERY correct in your statements. I totally agree with your comments and have found the same "lessons in omission" both in my Air Force career and later in medicine. There are many technical publications that were "simplified" and much of what was "expected knowledge" in previous publications (and technicians who used them) that became "legend" or "rumors" in later years....

In medicine, with today's "laparoscopic procedures" there are a number of "tech reps for the companies who sell and service" the equipment who have never seen an "open procedure" using the "old method" (which is, in many situations, the emergency backup procedure) except "in the movies at school"...

I "get the omission" by the EMS and generator manufacturers. If they added that information (even for explanation purposes) and someone "used that information" to "bypass the safety features", somewhere, it's going to "cost the company" in a courtroom. So, better to "dumb down further" than to risk a substantial loss at the hands of "providing the information for the purpose of better understanding"......

I "get it" but I don't necessarily "agree with it"........ (If that makes any sense)
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Old 08-26-2016, 11:04 AM   #17
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Using portable generators is no different from using an on-board generator inside an RV. You still wouldn't drive a ground rod, but the difference is, with an on-board generator, the ground and the neutral in the system is bonded, so the EMS works to protect the RV's electrical system. This is a link to an excellent discussion about this: http://noshockzone.org/generator-gro...utral-bonding/
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Old 08-27-2016, 05:34 AM   #18
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And that is, in my opinion, the problem with the way people "fix" the EMS problem.... Many times, "they" (certainly nobody we know) do step 1 (install the plug to bond the grounds) without doing step 2. This leaves a "safety issue" if anything should happen to go wrong.....



I'm guessing, I don't know for sure, but that's probably why you don't find the "solution" (using the plug) in owner's manuals for Honda, Yamaha or Champion generators. So many times, (again my opinion) people who "halfway understand something" look for a solution, find it, read half the instructions, do the "hack" and get the results they were looking for, so "they" stop reading and never finish the solution..... Thus, a "bonded ground generator" is used to keep the EMS happy without grounding.... All is good, until the owner goes outside to "pull the generator under the awning in a rainstorm" and..................... YIKES !!!!!


Keep in mind, with or without a ground rod, bonding doesn't introduce a safety issue.

Many (most) contractor generators come bonded from the factory. They are used on job sites all the time.


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Old 08-28-2016, 10:09 PM   #19
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It would be nice, however, if the gen and/or the surge protector manufacturers would outline in the manual what you have described in these posts so that the consumer (who reads the documentation) would know "the rest of the story".


They do. At least it was in my Honda 3000 manual.

There's even a ground lug on it if you feel like pounding in a rod.
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Old 08-29-2016, 07:04 AM   #20
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Hmmm...didn't see that in my Smarter Tools/Yamaha 2000iQ manual or my Honda 1000 manual. I'll give them another look. The 2000's, too, have a grounding lug, primarily for parallel operation.

I'll just leave the surge protector stored away. Less stuff for someone to steal, anyway.
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