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Old 11-07-2013, 06:56 PM   #21
KJcachers
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My 2013 Bullet had water bubbles on the inside of the front wall. Keystone said it was a factory defect in the front roof seal and replaced the whole front end free of charge. Sitting right at 11 months of ownership when it happened.
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Old 11-08-2013, 05:51 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by KJcachers View Post
My 2013 Bullet had water bubbles on the inside of the front wall. Keystone said it was a factory defect in the front roof seal and replaced the whole front end free of charge. Sitting right at 11 months of ownership when it happened.
Your the "Lucky" ONE! It is the rest of us, that are past our one year warranty that are stuck with something poorly constructed. Don't get me wrong, I love our Outback, but this front cap problem became known to me shortly AFTER i bought it while researching RV covers. WAY Too MANY threads around this forum on front cap de-lamination's and failures to call it a "fluke", or,, a rare water intrusion, (at the owners fault). Every time I pick my trailer up from our storage lot, first thing I do is look over the front cap for warp-age, and ya know,, I should not need to do that! After checking that, then I look at all my further decaying decals, as they continue to wrinkle and shrink away. (Which is why I wanted to put a RV cover on it, to keep the sun off, yet, CAN'T due to front cap "problems"! I guess there are just too many Keystone trailers out their with this type of front cap for them to "make good" on them, but it surly makes you think twice about buying another Keystone product...

Rixbullet

Please update this post when your trailer is completed. Photo's would sure be FANTASTIC to see if you could post some. Merced is not too far from me to be out of the question if I need that repair, so knowing the price, and the quality of repair job they doo, will sure be good info to know! Are they putting the same type of material back on your trailer? I think it is called "Flexion" or something from my bad memory of older posts.

I guess the real question, is how long do we all keep our trailers, as every day longer that we own them, we risk a $2.5 to $4K front cap repair job!

I wonder if the newer front caps would fit / work. Probably not, as on my model, they rounded out the interior ceiling, where mine is squared off.
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Old 11-12-2013, 11:21 AM   #23
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After repair

Got trailer home today, $2600 looks good and strong.
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Old 11-12-2013, 01:12 PM   #24
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Looking good !


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Old 11-12-2013, 08:31 PM   #25
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Several thoughts here: First Keystone is not the only one to use cardboard--all of them do. Period.

Second, you will notice that most are going to solid fiberglass shells on the front and back caps. Why do you think? Because all manufacturers had horrid problems with that filon glued to cardboard crap.

Third, I had the same problem on a R-Vision trailer and it was determined to be poor gluing and they took it back to the factory and fixed it. But it was clearly within the warranty time period. All the problems are not due to water infiltration. Many are due to poor manufacturing.

Fourth, most units using this method are entry level units and they are built cheaply, thus this kind of stuff. High end units don't have this problem--but they are $40,000 or $50,000 plus.

No conclusions here...it's just the way it is.
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Old 11-13-2013, 11:15 AM   #26
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rxbullett
Repairs look GREAT! You have the exact same front cap as my Outback 230RS has on it.

We were camping for the last 10 days down at Emma Woods State Park in Ventura, CA. (The "park" sits right on the very edge of the pacific ocean, and is all of just the old abandoned section of the original hwy 1 - built in 1927 per the concrete road stampings.) I noticed SO MANY of the trailers in the "park", all had the "Filon" front caps. So it is not just Keystone using it, but all across many manufacturers. I also noticed very very few newer trailers use aluminum siding... After 10 days of salt air, and even some spray from the high tide waves crashing, I washed & waxed our entire trailer. It is now sitting at Sky River RV for service, and inspection as this thread made me decide to have the "Pro's" look over it for roof sealant, and caulking. I did see a much older Outback trailer in the State park, (probably early to mid 2000's), an old rental trailer from its numbered markings on it. Its front cap was Filon, and actually looked OLD, weathered, but not bubbled, and still "OK". So maybe their is hope in ours lasting 10 years or so...
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Old 01-01-2014, 05:52 AM   #27
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Same problems with Kodiak

I noticed bubbling near the passenger side marker light on front panel. After several weeks of attempting to contact vendors for their warranty (HAHA) I finally heard from Keystone telling me that the sealant around the light must either have gone bad or had a "void". Well, a void would be shoddy workmanship. Also informed me that I should be resealing all fittings, etc every 2 months. Seriously? The unit is not even two years old.
Looks like my son and I are going to have to learn small bubble repair.
Has anyone else tried the kits advertised? The area is only about 1-1/2 sf.

And which campers are not under the THOR umbrella?
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Old 01-01-2014, 10:43 AM   #28
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FlaTraveler,

Sorry to hear about your front cap delamination. I don't know of anyone who has attempted a self repair of a 1.5 sq ft area successfully. Most owners either rely on the dealership or find a competent fiberglass repair shop (usually a marine dealer/repair facility) to do that big an area. Of course that really depends on your level of experience in fiberglass repair.

Kodiak travel trailers are produced by Dutchman, however just recently Keystone took over management of the Dutchman line of RV's. Keystone was not involved in the manufacture of your two+ year old Kodiak, but at this time, they do manage the warranty for Dutchman RV's that still have a warranty remaining. Since yours is older than one year, there is no warranty remaining, and that might be a factor on how Keystone responded to you.

As for your question about what RV's are NOT under the THOR umbrella, here's the ones that are owned/managed by THOR, so any other's would probably not be, but as rapidly as things change in the RV industry, THOR may well have bought controlling interest in some of those that are not on this list.

Airstream, all models

CrossRoads RV (Sunset Trail, Cruiser, Zinger, Z-1, Rushmore, Elevation, Redwood and Hampton),

Dutchmen Manufacturing (Aerolite, Aspen Trail, Coleman, Denali, Dutchmen, Infinity, Kodiak, Razorback, Rubicon and Voltage),

Heartland Recreational Vehicles (Landmark, Bighorn, Big Country, Gateway, ElkRidge, Sundance, North Trail, Wilderness, Prowler, Trail Runner, Fairfield, Cyclone, Road Warrior, Torque and the Breckenridge),

Keystone RV (Alpine, Avalanche, Bullet, Carbon, Cougar, Cougar Half-Ton, Cougar High Country, Cougar XLite, Energy, Fireside, Fuzion, Hideout, Hornet, Impact, Laredo, Montana, Montana High Country, Mountaineer, Outback, Outback Terrain, Passport, Premier, Raptor, Residence, Retreat, Springdale, Sprinter, Sprinter Copper Canyon, Sprinter Wide Body, Summerland, Sydney, Vantage),

Livin’ Lite RV (Quicksilver, Camplite, Axxess, Quicksilver VRV, Bearcat, Jeep and Polaris),

Thor Motor Coach (Four Winds, Hurricane, Windsport, Chateau, Daybreak, Challenger, Tuscany, Outlaw, Palazzo and A.C.E.)

Additionally, you should be aware the "FILON" the fiberglass substrate used in RV skin is a registered trademark and is produced by Crane Composites,
23525 W Eames, Channahon, IL 60410. No matter what brand of RV you buy, if it's fiberglass, it will either have the same skin as your Keystone or it will be an RV manufacturer adaptation of FILON.

Also, Lippert Industries produces almost all the RV frames, doors, windows, plumbing supplies, showers, faucets, furniture, mattresses, and almost all other components (excluding appliances) for all manufacturers of RV's. So, no matter where you look in the RV world, you'll find essentially the same materials in any RV manufactured that were used in your Keystone.

Not defending Keystone, but if you read the owner's manual, you'll find the following:

Warranty Exclusions:

• Routine maintenance including, without limitation, caulking, re-caulking and waxing of the body of the recreational vehicle, tightening screws, brake squeak/lock-up/adjustment, latches, locks, combustion systems, changing fuses, or light bulbs, and maintaining the air conditioning and heating systems;

• Damage or loss caused in whole or in part by exposure to natural or atmospheric elements, corrosive chemicals, ash or fumes generated or released by vehicles, collision, road hazards, rock chips, condensation, or any other source;

Also, included in the owner's manual are the following:

It is the responsibility of the owner to maintain the recreational vehicle as described in the Care and Maintenance section of the Owner’s Manual including taking whatever preventative measures necessary to maintain the exterior sealants of the unit and to prevent foreseeable secondary moisture or water damage to the unit from rain, plumbing leaks, condensation and other natural accumulation of water in the unit.

Other Wall Attachments These can include but are not limited to compartment doors, door holders, range vent, refer vent, lights, awning feet, water fills, cable hatches, furnace vents, grab handles, speakers, receptacles, water heater, etc. Every six months, inspect these areas for sealant gaps/voids, cracks, shrinkage, etc. and reseal as necessary. Please consult your local Keystone dealer for assistance if needed.

CAUTION ABOUT SEALANTS - Be careful when selecting a sealant, as it is not recommended to use 2 different sealants on top of each other. To give you some personal experience with sealants, we had a Springdale RV prior to our current Cougar. The sealant on some of the windows in it failed about 4 months after purchase and the dealer resealed them. That was not covered by the Keystone warranty, however he did not charge us for the work. After 2 years of ownership, several more windows and at least half the clearance lights needed resealing. I did that work myself along with checking the roof. I check all the sealant on my RV every 4 or 5 months, which for us, in Michigan means in the spring when we get the trailer ready for camping and in the fall when we winterize it. In Florida, you might want to check your sealant on the roof, windows and light even more frequently since UV from sunlight and the heat of sitting outside will damage/destroy the sealant even faster than it will in our less sunny climate.

Good luck with your repair, but again, most leave something as significant as fiberglass repair of the size you mention to the professionals.
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Old 01-01-2014, 01:23 PM   #29
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John thanks for info

I do have many friends in the marine industry in South Florida so I may consult with a few before proceeding.
I was pretty certain Dutchman was not a Keystone brand when we bought the unit 21 months ago. Receiving responses from Keystone threw me. We have had good luck with their products.
We do remove and replace roof edge sealants periodically as well as treat the rubber.
The idea that a light fixture should have a sealant that would fail in such a relatively short time stuns me. I have seen many similar applications where a simple rubber gasket is installed and lasts a decade or more. It is a shame that a manufacturer cut about 20 cents of quality in such an integral place.
I will say that our ac also went just a month ago and dometic took care of it without blinking. The repair shop actually had to do a double take as they had the exact unit in the week before with the same problem. That sounds like Dutchman was cutting corners and pulling a "Wal-Mart", buying factory rejects or seconds.
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Old 01-01-2014, 01:57 PM   #30
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I can't tell you if Dutchman is buying seconds/factory defects or not, but I'm thinking (personal opinion) that they wouldn't be supervised by Keystone unless someone in their management team really "stepped in it" somewhere in the past and simply getting rid of him wasn't able to solve the problem. I'd think it was a pretty serious management flaw that led to that kind of internal organizational rearrangement. Something pretty significant happened at Dutchman for this kind of change in management.

As for putting gaskets behind the clearance lights, I've been dealing with Peterson and Bargman lights for well over 40 years and I've never seen an RV application with a gasket behind the clearance lights in any RV I've owned or worked on. (motorhomes and Airstreams excepted). I would think a big part of it is the previous "corrugated aluminum" skin that was used for many years. It's bent "funny" and a flat light probably wouldn't seal properly with a gasket, so they used sealant which was a much better solution. When fiberglass started being used, it was easier to keep the same process for both skins as they both rolled down the same assembly line. Then, when fiberglass became the most popular, the process never changed because there wasn't any "real advantage" to changing things on the line where everyone was already trained on the established procedure. All the lights from "most" manufacturers (probably 95% plus) are all sealed with no gaskets used. Another "afterthought" is that the lights are installed on a pretty flexible surface where they gasket may deform the surface rather than the surface pull the gasket tight to prevent leaks???? Just a theory, I've no proof of that.....

If I were you, I'd look closely as the sealant in all the compartment doors, main doors, windows, reefer stack vents, hot water heater, tail lights, fresh water fill ports, and anything else that is "screwed to" and "sealed behind" on the skin of your RV. If there's a leak behind a clearance light, there's most likely more sealant dried, pulled away or defective in those places.....

Good Luck,
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Old 01-02-2014, 03:27 AM   #31
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Definitely more leaks

John
The original furnace installation was tilted inward so that if it rained, water drained into the unit. Fortunately, we caught this before warranty ran out. It took nearly 2 months for Dutchman to send the replacement parts to the dealer.
The ac installation is such that there is no airflow to most points in the unit. Replacing the original spinning diffusers has helped, although we have not been able to eliminate the supply air bleeding into the return at the unit mounting.
Enough problems that if we were not upside down, we would get rid of it.
When we check the roof seals we inspect all the seals.
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Old 01-02-2014, 06:56 AM   #32
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This is "off topic" for this thread, but air conditioner duct leakage is a significant issue with almost all RV's. There is an "air dam" built into the warm air collection box that separates it from the cold air return section of the plenum. Additionally, almost all "quickly installed" air registers leak into the ceiling cavity. Using aluminum foil tape (not cloth duck take) to rebuild the plenum separator and to seal the circular air registers will almost always result in better air movement through the air conditioner system.

Here's one thread on the topic, there are many others. Note the very good pictures one member posted in the 27th response which is on page 3.

http://www.keystonerv.org/forums/sho...nditioner+duct
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Old 01-03-2014, 04:55 PM   #33
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Just a quick note folks.
The next time someone mentions that "Amish Quality" think about all these remarks.
Later,
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Old 01-03-2014, 05:02 PM   #34
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Just a quick note folks.
The next time someone mentions that "Amish Quality" think about all these remarks.
Later,
Bill, if you go to almost any "authentic" Amish store, you'll find "true Amish quality" If you go to most any "fast paced assembly line" you'll find Amish workers who blend well with the other folks...... They all want to hurry up, punch out and get the he** outa Dodge........
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Old 01-04-2014, 08:03 PM   #35
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But John

The amish seemingly are willingly loaning their name for "quality" it would appear. Shal we just say there are sellouts everywhere? Look at Gucci?
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Old 01-04-2014, 08:21 PM   #36
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I don't know that the Amish are the ones loaning their heritage so much as it's the manufacturer's "advertising" that the RV's are "built with Amish quality" when in reality it's more that some Amish are working there, making a living and the RV manufacturers are "capitalizing" on the "name" and trying to sell something for what it's not......

Unless management is largely composed of Amish "decision makers" and they are in control of marketing, who is making that kind of decision, it's sort of like using any religious or ethnic "brand" and making money from it because one or two of that "type" are working on the floor. It's sort of like changing "Mamma Leone's Spaghetti" to "Mother Lynn's Spaghetti" or changing "Chef Boyardee" to "Chef Gordon" Would hiring one janitor who is of Italian descent improve the authenticity of either of those brands? It's all about marketing an image.

When we go to Ohio, we often visit Amish communities near our daughter's home. There's a significant difference (improvement) in the quality of what is for sale there as compared to many of the "Amish stores" that are scattered around Michigan. I've been in a couple of those "Amish stores" down around Grand Rapids and noticed that when you turn some of those "quality items" over, there's a "Hencho en Chine" sticker on the bottom...... I've yet to find one of those stickers in a "real Amish store"

I don't know that the Amish are "selling out" as much as Keystone and others are "zeroing in"
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Old 01-05-2014, 05:06 AM   #37
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...
When we go to Ohio, we often visit Amish communities near our daughter's home. There's a significant difference (improvement) in the quality of what is for sale there as compared to many of the "Amish stores" that are scattered around Michigan. I've been in a couple of those "Amish stores" down around Grand Rapids and noticed that when you turn some of those "quality items" over, there's a "Hencho en Chine" sticker on the bottom...... I've yet to find one of those stickers in a "real Amish store"I don't know that the Amish are "selling out" as much as Keystone and others are "zeroing in"
======================

We also visit the Berlin- Walnut Creek area in Ohio to observe Amish. Usually we stay at the Evergreen RV Park while in that area. Last time we took some friends with us. This friend was going to buy an expensive quilt and then she noticed the tag said, "Made in China". She was really upset. Told her that's the way it is anymore.
In fact we will be leaving for Florida in a couple of weeks and while down there we plan on visiting the "Pinecraft" area. This is where the Amish migrate each year to stay warm, like the rest of us.
Happy trails,
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Old 01-05-2014, 05:58 AM   #38
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======================

We also visit the Berlin- Walnut Creek area in Ohio to observe Amish. Usually we stay at the Evergreen RV Park while in that area. Last time we took some friends with us. This friend was going to buy an expensive quilt and then she noticed the tag said, "Made in China". She was really upset. Told her that's the way it is anymore.
In fact we will be leaving for Florida in a couple of weeks and while down there we plan on visiting the "Pinecraft" area. This is where the Amish migrate each year to stay warm, like the rest of us.
Happy trails,
We've not experienced that "yet" Down around Chillicothe, there are a number of Amish communities with furniture mills, stores that sell handwork, bakeries, general stores that sell a variety of meats, vegetables, fruit, spices, the majority of which are made right there in the community. We had some lawn furniture made since they didn't have the color my DW wanted and we watched as they started working on it. The next trip, we picked it up. There were no "tags on the bottom" of any of it. There is a produce/farm stock auction weekly in one of the communities where you can bid on fresh produce, livestock, etc along with wholesalers who come in to buy truckloads of produce. At those auctions, there are more buggies, wagons and horses than there are trucks and cars. I would be disappointed to see what your friend experienced, but as you say, it may be "just the way it is"
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Old 08-05-2017, 10:04 AM   #39
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Bought my 2007 Outback 1 year ago. Saw the damage and the guy came down a little. I wonder if he knew...I sure didn't. Fast forward to the end if three week trip and the difference is highly noteable. Wondering if I can do the repair myself... ��
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Old 08-25-2017, 08:15 AM   #40
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I just today had the same experience with the same reply. Apparently Keystone only expects their products to last up until the end of the warranty period. Pitiful that they will not back their products better than this. I plan to do my best to spread the word regarding Keystone products.
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