Keystone customer service Nightmare

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by billb800si

Can't wait for the Japanese to get into the RV market. They ate the American Car companies lunch and FORCED them to build quality products.

Happy trails,

Yup, but at what price? I well remember buying a "loaded 1972 Dodge 4x4 3/4 ton truck for $3800. That same truck today is nearly $70,000. Sure, inflation "eats" some of that increase, but.....

According to CPI calculators, that $3800 used to buy that truck in 1972 would require $22,275 in today's dollars. So, there's a $50K increase "somewhere"... Granted, today's vehicles are better because of competition spurred by the foreign car companies (both European and Asian), but that "increased quality" comes with a significant price.....

I'm not sure the RV industry could "weather the price war" spurred by "improved quality" at the levels that would make the "average RV" cost more than most of us could afford to pay.....

[denverpilot]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

Yup, but at what price? I well remember buying a "loaded 1972 Dodge 4x4 3/4 ton truck for $3800. That same truck today is nearly $70,000. Sure, inflation "eats" some of that increase, but.....



According to CPI calculators, that $3800 used to buy that truck in 1972 would require $22,275 in today's dollars. So, there's a $50K increase "somewhere"... Granted, today's vehicles are better because of competition spurred by the foreign car companies (both European and Asian), but that "increased quality" comes with a significant price.....



I'm not sure the RV industry could "weather the price war" spurred by "improved quality" at the levels that would make the "average RV" cost more than most of us could afford to pay.....

Part of that difference is in 1972, most folks considered a vehicle over the hill at 100,000 miles. And they were often right.

Nowadays that's just getting broken in, for many. Especially new heavy duty trucks.

They have to make up that money difference on top of inflation, higher parts prices, and what not. They know they won't sell as many overall units over the same period of time.

It doesn't make up ALL of the numbers difference, but it does factor in.

This also started not long after the whole Japanese import Big Bang of the 1970s.

We just discussed it being common to see Dodge Cummins Gen 1 and 2 trucks still happily towing at 300,000 miles and the newest ones are a decade old at this point, Gen 1's way older.

My 2001 Gen 2 is 15, but it's lived a sheltered life at under 150,000 miles still since new.

Lots of people still want something new/different at 100,000 miles or so, but the vehicle gets sold to someone else who changes all the fluids and does some relatively inexpensive services, and runs it another 100,000. That's pretty common nowadays. Then maybe someone else buys it at auction for a song and goes another 100,000.

Pretty amazing really. I remember my dad's 70's Dodge pickup -- it would never have made it to the mid 80s or early 1990s without self destructing.

Nowadays the critical vehicle buyer who is truly going to get maximum value from their purchase, is looking for 200,000 miles with nearly nothing but fluid, tire, and brake changes and maybe a timing belt along the line somewhere in there.

Most vehicles die in accidents rather than blowing engines or transmissions on the side of the road like back then.

[gearhead]

We are trying to get a factory tour in our schedule the first week of June. I'll get the 15 minute observation and based on that tell them everything they are doing wrong. ahem.
Actually I just want to catch somebody putting the wrong label on the gray and black tank drains. lol

[chuckster57]

Originally Posted by gearhead

We are trying to get a factory tour in our schedule the first week of June. I'll get the 15 minute observation and based on that tell them everything they are doing wrong. ahem.

Actually I just want to catch somebody putting the wrong label on the gray and black tank drains. lol

I spent 3 days in the Newmar plant back in December '15, it was interesting to say the least.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by gearhead

We are trying to get a factory tour in our schedule the first week of June. I'll get the 15 minute observation and based on that tell them everything they are doing wrong. ahem.
Actually I just want to catch somebody putting the wrong label on the gray and black tank drains. lol

You probably won't get your wish.... Tours start at 1PM or 2PM. The plant works from 5AM to 1PM. So your tour will most likely be on an empty assembly line with no workers present. You might catch the janitor sweeping "old stickers" under the wheels, but likely you won't see any actual "work in progress".....

[mark1228]

Originally Posted by billb800si

Can't wait for the Japanese to get into the RV market. They ate the American Car companies lunch and FORCED them to build quality products.

Happy trails,

I always love this line. Why do you suppose the Japanese haven't done it yet? I mean really think about it. The reason is simple, Japanese company's just like any business need a return on their investment. The RV business is so small that there is simply not enough volume for them to be able to be profitable. There is no affordable, efficient way to ship RV's overseas on a large scale and there really is not enough volume for anyone to invest millions into plants and processes without knowing they will make money. With only around 400,000 RV' s sold in fantastic year for the entire industry, they can't make the numbers work. Due to volume alone there is no comparison between the auto makers and RV makers, let alone the fact that RV company's are building a house on wheels and how YOU as the owner drive makes a big difference in the problems you could have. One of my employees had a new house built last year and has been fighting warranty problems on that for a year now and it is on a foundation and does not move and cost way more than any RV.

[JRTJH]

I don't think there is a "stick built" house that's ever been produced that will withstand daily "hurricanes, earthquakes and 3+ G forces". I probably should "qualify" that by adding, "...any "stick built" house that is designed to be lived in by "average people" on an "average income"... I'm sure that "somewhere" some university (or government agency) has constructed a "model for the future" home that's "earthquake and tornado proof"....

But the point is: Given the environment our trailers are subjected to, I'm honestly amazed they even "hold together" over the roads we travel at the speeds we travel with the maintenance we do and the use we subject them to.

Could they be "built better"??? Sure they could, but would it be at the price we can afford (and are willing to pay for a "toy") ??? Probably not. If we were "willing to pay that much" then we'd all be in "airstream level" trailers that start at $90K for a 22' model, not in "keystone level" trailers that start at $15K for a "similar size" house on wheels............... and honestly, there's not 6 times the quality in an airstream when compared to a Springdale (one of Keystone's entry level line)

[gearhead]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

You probably won't get your wish.... Tours start at 1PM or 2PM. The plant works from 5AM to 1PM. So your tour will most likely be on an empty assembly line with no workers present. You might catch the janitor sweeping "old stickers" under the wheels, but likely you won't see any actual "work in progress".....

Well no wonder there are assembly issues. Ain't none of 'em awake.
Why in the world do they work that schedule?

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by gearhead

Well no wonder there are assembly issues. Ain't none of 'em awake.
Why in the world do they work that schedule?

Many of the workers are Amish and they work "early mornings" at the factory so they have the afternoon/evening to tend to the farm. You'll see a parking lot filled with "horse poop" at the plant. If you get there early in the morning, it'll be filled with black buggies and buckboards.

[gearhead]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

Many of the workers are Amish and they work "early mornings" at the factory so they have the afternoon/evening to tend to the farm. You'll see a parking lot filled with "horse poop" at the plant. If you get there early in the morning, it'll be filled with black buggies and buckboards.

That makes sense. And it makes sense now why the tours are at 2pm.
May be re-thinking this.

[JRTJH]

If you stay in Elkhart, there is a really nice campground around the corner from the "RV Historical Museum" as well as a really interesting "wholesale RV warehouse" just off the interstate. Also, the "shipshewana Flea Market" which is "reportedly" the world's largest flea market" is in the same local vicinity. It's open every Tues and Wednesday from May through October. http://www.tradingplaceamerica.com/ So it's not a "Keystone is the only game in town" kind of area....

If you've never seen the Keystone factory, it's an eye opener and you'll understand much more about how your RV is built, what is in it (and where it's located) as well as formulate some strategy for repair plans once things start to go wrong.

Just seeing the chassis without the walls, flooring and carpet gives you a totally different perspective on what is "in your RV". I'd highly encourage you to take a couple of days if you're in that area and check out the museum as well as schedule a tour of the factory facility (they schedule tours for most of their brands, so a "Springdale trailer plant" tour probably wouldn't give you nearly as much information as a "Montana fifth wheel plant" tour or even a Cougar or Laredo fifth wheel plant tour..... Be as selective in which tour (or tours) if you're there multiple days. It's definitely worth your time.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

I don't think there is a "stick built" house that's ever been produced that will withstand daily "hurricanes, earthquakes and 3+ G forces". I probably should "qualify" that by adding, "...any "stick built" house that is designed to be lived in by "average people" on an "average income"... I'm sure that "somewhere" some university (or government agency) has constructed a "model for the future" home that's "earthquake and tornado proof"....

But the point is: Given the environment our trailers are subjected to, I'm honestly amazed they even "hold together" over the roads we travel at the speeds we travel with the maintenance we do and the use we subject them to.

Could they be "built better"??? Sure they could, but would it be at the price we can afford (and are willing to pay for a "toy") ??? Probably not. If we were "willing to pay that much" then we'd all be in "airstream level" trailers that start at $90K for a 22' model, not in "keystone level" trailers that start at $15K for a "similar size" house on wheels............... and honestly, there's not 6 times the quality in an airstream when compared to a Springdale (one of Keystone's entry level line)

Not to mention, to build to the standards above the RV buyer would then have to have a deuce and a half to pull it.

[gearhead]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

If you stay in Elkhart, there is a really nice campground around the corner from the "RV Historical Museum" as well as a really interesting "wholesale RV warehouse" just off the interstate. Also, the "shipshewana Flea Market" which is "reportedly" the world's largest flea market" is in the same local vicinity. It's open every Tues and Wednesday from May through October. http://www.tradingplaceamerica.com/ So it's not a "Keystone is the only game in town" kind of area....

If you've never seen the Keystone factory, it's an eye opener and you'll understand much more about how your RV is built, what is in it (and where it's located) as well as formulate some strategy for repair plans once things start to go wrong.

Just seeing the chassis without the walls, flooring and carpet gives you a totally different perspective on what is "in your RV". I'd highly encourage you to take a couple of days if you're in that area and check out the museum as well as schedule a tour of the factory facility (they schedule tours for most of their brands, so a "Springdale trailer plant" tour probably wouldn't give you nearly as much information as a "Montana fifth wheel plant" tour or even a Cougar or Laredo fifth wheel plant tour..... Be as selective in which tour (or tours) if you're there multiple days. It's definitely worth your time.

We will be in Indianapolis, so Elkhart is right up the road. The Montana HC tour is Wednesday. I will pull out of Indy on Monday and stay at the KOA south of Ft. Wayne and catch a USAC race in Montpelier Tuesday night. Then to Elkhart Wednesday, staying at Elkhart Campground. That was the original plan, so I think I'll stick with it.
edit...oops...I need to be in Goshen, not Elkhart! Maybe Elkhart County Fairgrounds. NO! they have trains. Ahh heck. Elkhart campground it is.

[JRTJH]

Goshen is 20 miles from Elkhart, so having lived in Houston, I'm sure you'd consider that not much of a trip at all LOL

[chuckster57]

I saw tons of bicycles. Don't have to feed/water them.

[ctbruce]

Originally Posted by chuckster57

I saw tons of bicycles. Don't have to feed/water them.

...or do any scooping!! Unless there's a close call at the plant entrance on the way to work...

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