Winter camping

[nuskovich]

What are your winter camping tips and tricks for the frozen north?

[Festus2]

nuskovich -
It would help with our replies if we knew if you (a) will be hooked up to water, electricity and sewer or (b) are talking about dry camping with no hookups. (c) Do you have access to a generator? (d) Will you be in one spot or moving around?

[geo]

Originally Posted by nuskovich

What are your winter camping tips and tricks for the frozen north?

I'll toss in the short answer - Don't.

(I can only guess at JRTJH's and Festus2's comments here . . . )

But, if you want to seriously consider winter camping, from my own experience in an Alpine, I would install tank heaters and underbelly insulation. Additionally, I would also use pink antifreeze in the waste tanks.

Additionally, if you plan to use additional heating from electric heaters, look at how the "utility basement" area might be heated. Some remove storage basement walls and use an electric heater in the storage area. I used some large 700mm computer fans to force warmed air into the "utility basement", and an additional fan (called a Radon Abatement fan) to channel this warmed air back to the fresh water tank area so it could return along the water lines.

Search for my posts under the two sections: Mods and Repairs. There is enough verbage and photos there to allow you to consider if you really want to winter camp in the 49th State.

Ron

[JRTJH]

You guessed right, Geo. My response is also, "DON'T"

nuskovich,

If you do a search for winter camping, you'll find a host of people who have done it, tried it, some successfully (within reason) some failed and also with good reason.

The resident "cold weather expert" (Geo) modified his RV (which came standard with the "arctic pack/polar pack/tundra pack/cold weather pack") and he spent countless hours and dollars upgrading his RV just to handle the rigors of subzero living. All of his modifications were essentially based on being able to provide unlimited electricity and propane to his RV. Trying to "boondock" in subzero weather is a totally different animal and requires a completely different set of tools to be successful.

Another "winter expert" (Hankaye) lived in Utah during the winter for some time and now, I think, has settled on warmer climates during the cold part of the year. He can tell you of his experiences and give you some good insight into how to prepare. The key, preparation, really needs to be started when it's warm outside and you can work under your RV and around it without being "knee deep in slush" Once winter hits, trying to get ready for camping in the cold is a miserable place to be.

Here's a link to a current issue with trying to maintain livability in an RV in subfreezing weather (below 32) but not even approaching the subzero temperatures you face in and around Juneau.

http://www.keystonerv.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9057

The "average RV' and even the "highly modified RV" just aren't equipped to handle subzero temps with the available energy sources typically on hand to boondock.

Even with unlimited propane and electricity, you'd be very VERY hardpressed to live in an RV in subzero temperatures. Can it be done, some pioneer probably will say yes. Would most of us want to attempt it, after a night or maybe two, we'd all be headed to the nearest Holiday Inn. (choose your own chain if you don't like HI)

If you're planning to stay in and around Juneau, you'd probalby be OK with camping in your Raptor if you can maintain electricity and propane. Move inland much over 50 miles and that's another story all together. Once you start hitting below freezing temps with subzero readings at night and no daytime thawing temps, you're not going to be able to maintain the plumbing systems on your RV without having already managed to get it set up with skirting, heat tapes, underbelly heat and such "do beforehand" types of preparation. Trying to get set up now that winter is here is going to be near impossible.

I'll go out on a limb here and say that you'd be warmer in an igloo than you would be in your Raptor.

[Paddler]

Ignore all the naysayers! Here's our tip for enjoyable winter camping....Don't go north of the Florida border.

[Roller4Tan]

We dry camped in the winter in Michigan, probably 5-6 years before I retired. Trailer plumbing winterized. Used shore power and dump at campground site. They didn't like us to use electric heat, but we would for the times we were there (also a heated mattress pad). Used the campground showers and facilities. bought water for coffee, cooking, etc. Never had an issue with the fridge not working. If an emergency arose we used the toilet with rock salt and water to flush and drain if the slinky wasn't froze. It could be fun to look out and see all the blowing snow. Took out battery when we left. Left the slides out, too ( had toppers).

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by Paddler

Ignore all the naysayers! Here's our tip for enjoyable winter camping....Don't go north of the Florida border.

The south side of Interstate 10 does have it's "benefits"

[nuskovich]

I have a generator plus 30 gals of onboard gasoline, two 30# LPs with a 100# on the way. I would dry camp as if in a REALLY NICE tent. Mummy bag for sleeping...have done the 20 degree tent stuff with catalytic heater for a week, only washing up was the pain.

[Jim W]

For winter camping north of the MASON DIXON line we stay in a motel or hotel depending on the area we are visiting. Such as last winter we stayed at the Westin Hotel in Downtown Chicago for the Festival of Lights with the grand kids.
Jim W.

[nuskovich]

Where is anyone's sense of adventure?? Get out of the lazy boy and experience life in the cold. After tenting a week in Alaska, you come to appreciate everything we take for granted...draft free and waterproof homes with on-demand heat or cold. A 19 century home has the same insulation as my RV and it is comfortable.

[Outbackmel]

Westin sounds like my kind of winter camping north. Fight'n with the DW which of us gets the 1/2 hour hot shower first and lounging around and kick'n back.

Anything wrong sir? she politely said from the call to the front desk. No, I reply, just wanted to order up late breakfast served to the room.

Ohhh Yeah, now that's winter camping

[geo]

Originally Posted by nuskovich

Where is anyone's sense of adventure?? Get out of the lazy boy and experience life in the cold. After tenting a week in Alaska, you come to appreciate everything we take for granted...draft free and waterproof homes with on-demand heat or cold. A 19 century home has the same insulation as my RV and it is comfortable.

Nuskovich -

As a geologist, I have cold weathered camped. And while some are commenting on the human aspect of cold camping, there are some of us commenting on the equipment aspect. An RV is not a mummy bag. In particular, it's the water systems. Water has that property of expanding when turning solid. What you risk is frozen water lines that can burst, frozen water pump or expansion tank, frozen tanks that can split, valves that can be split or damaged. Possible damage could be minor - only needing some time to defrost or replace a water pump. But it could also involve replacement of the whole Pex piping system, tank replacement, etc. This could quickly run up into the thousands of dollars. Especially in Alaska! For cold weather camping without hardening the RV, I would recommend leaving the RV winterized and using it as a hard-sided tent. And bring the mummy bag.

Ron

[mikell]

I guess fulltiming in Michigan isn't really camping but we do it anyway. Going to set the MH up with heated tanks and heat tape and run the genny whenever not plugged in . Not sure what the problem would be just get to know your rig.

[Htfiremedic]

We just paid a visit to family in NC. We were in the mountains, lows at night 20 ish.
We ran our gas heat and supplemented with electric as needed. The gas did well, kept bays warm. We used a homemade heated water hose, and drained tanks after Lunch time.
We will go again, as time permits.
Hope this helps.

[JRTJH]

Lows in the 20's at night with daytime highs above freezing is a good match for most any RV with a "polar package" <said tongue in cheek>. Many would call that "cool weather camping" we do that deer hunting every year with very good success. We park in an open field, charge batteries every afternoon before the evening hunt, shower and use plumbing with good results. However, when the temps fall below 20F and hover at or below freezing during the day, you will find it much more difficult to keep the "liquid systems" in most RV's operational. When the temperature is consistently below zero (actually in the low teens and below), without special preparation, it ain't happening.

Check this forum topic to see the problems faced by one of our members who is in Colorado, just west of Colorado Springs.

http://www.keystonerv.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9057

He is facing temps in the low teens with mid 20's in the day and everything is frozen.

As Geo said and many others have experienced, you can't drag an RV around to different campgrounds and get a "shower on demand" when the outside temperature is in the single digits. It takes preparation, protecting the underbelly from freezing and enormous amounts of propane to sustain any level of comfort in an RV. Resorting to the mummy sleeping bags and a 5 gallon bucket for a toilet would provide a way to say, "I DID IT" but it wouldn't be using the RV systems, it would be, as said before, camping in a hard wall tent.

To be successful in maintaining a Keystone RV with operational systems in near zero temps, you have to protect it with measures that essentially make it a non-movable object. Some of the more elaborate RV's, with 3+ inch sidewalls, effective insulation and construction techniques that accommodate winter RVing will remain operational in those climates, but they don't cost what a Keystone costs either. To start with, those RV's come standard with 2 (or more) furnaces, heat pads on all tanks, real insulated doors on compartments, real insulation in the underbelly, Slides with walls thicker than 1 inch, the list goes on and on.....

My concern with winter camping is dewinterizing the RV and then having issues with freezing and ice damage to the systems. Once that cascade starts, there's no place available around here to get the RV inside and thaw it before major damage occurs. By the time I drove 36 hours nonstop to Florida, the damage would have already occurred.

If one really wants to "camp" in an RV in below freezing temps, the best bet is to not use the plumbing systems, have uninterrupted power and unlimited propane. Otherwise, when the inevitable "frozen pipes" occurs, it's an uphill battle that mother nature will most likely win.

[Outbackmel]

Every winter I always have a non planned over night in the RV. It is fully winterized and waiting for me to haul her to Florida so she can be warm again if only for a couple of weeks.
I operate in survival mode. Carry my supies in. Bring my porta potty for comfort. Shut off forward BR. Use ceramic space heater, UNTIL bedtime, set thermostat on 70 and jump into bed. Cold morning, jump up, get space heater going, back in bed for 30 minutes and life is good.
Would not want to do this in Minnesota, Chicago or severe cold areas.

[mikell]

Ok I've been winter camping for nearly as long as there's been winter so I think I can walk nearly anybody through setting up a unit.

I just picked up a 98 Tioga motorhome and am going to make it ready for winter travels to nothern Michigan.

What am I going to add

Heat tape and solid insulation to exteror drains nothing is an a belly $100

Holes for air circulation where the water lines run maybe a fan water tank is under the dining bench $0

Water heater upgrade or maybe heat pads on it $00???

Solar panels 100 watts maybe 200 $150 -$500

More batteries going to BORROW them from the golf cart and make a trailer hitch mount box $000


It can be done and proving it is most of the fun


12 volt heattape

http://www.heatline.com/kompensator.htm#

[SteveC7010]

Years ago, there was a small campground right on Routes 5 and 20 in Ontario County, NY. There were a number of folks who lived year 'round there in small TT's of one brand or another, probably no more that 25' in length. They went to a lot of effort to make the TT's weather tight and insulated enough to be fairly comfortable. Here's a partial list of mods that I observed.

1. Hard side skirting of some kind. A lot used the mobile home stuff that is basically vertical vinyl siding. Skirting was attached to a 2x4 on the ground and to the base of the trailer all around. Some used plywood and more than a few used hay bales which is a huge fire hazard.
2. Insulation inside the skirting.
3. Heat under the trailer inside the skirting - usually several 100 watt light bulbs. There were no enclosed underbellies back then so any extra heat helped a bunch.
4. Extra insulated access ports in the skirting for dumping the holding tanks.
5. Heated holding tanks.
6. Most built a small mud room outside of the trailer entrance door. Sort of an air lock to keep warm air in and cold air out.
7. Windows covered with 3M heat shrink winter treatment.
8. Roof vents packed with insulation.
9. Water lines were underground and came up under the trailers inside the skirting with heat tape.
10. 100# propane tanks
11. Extra electric service for electric heaters - RV's were all 30 amp back then.
12. Extra hard foam insulation on some inside walls, probably the 1.5" thick blue stuff covered with fabric for appearance sake.
13. Lots of plugging of air leaks with tape or stuffing insulation into openings.
14. Dehumidifiers to deal with moisture buildup from breathing and cooking. Less need to open a vent or window plus they do exhaust dry air that is slightly warm back into the living space.

It took a lot of effort to live comfortably in TT's but they did it.

[mikell]

If your only going for a wek or two and have a generator it will be real easy

[nuskovich]

since the heat rises it is the most overlooked spot for heat loss, those vents. I'll fashion soft foam for the vents and a box filled with insulation for the AC units. Still pondering how to afix that to the ceiling...velcro might due the trick.

Protecting the underside with something reusable, portable and stowable is next problem. I like cheap and effiecient and a heavy tarp may suffice.

For information sake, Juneau's wether is like a crummy day from my old home state of Michigan. Japanese trade winds and a mountain range keeps it somewhat reasonable.