fresh water tank

Rob1955 · 02-10-2022, 12:47 PM

I posted about a fresh water gate valve leaking on my2019 Keystone HideOut. I took it off the lot, to the storage lot, and found a drain valve that had been repaired poorly.. This is the procedure used to fasten your valves to your tanks. If done correctly, it's probably fine. Mine was not.
Today it went in the shop, and they asked if I had purchased an extended warranty.. Say What? I expect to drive something off any lot, with a unit that is ready to use? This is not my problem.. replace the tank. I expect some grief over this..
anyway, here is the correct way to install ports for drain valves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMdLWAYr7Ck

On this picture you can see the cooled plastic, which had been heated to seal the valve. You can also see a rather poor attempt at fixing a leak.. I am expecting to have to consult a lawyer with this.

**chuckster57** · 02-10-2022, 12:54 PM

I understand your issue, and I think Keystone should step up and fix it. However mention Lawyer and get ready to NOT have anything happen until it’s settled. You could pay off the trailer before that happens. I would press your selling dealer and contact Keystone. If there is another Keystone dealer you might want to try them.

I do know for a fact that Keystone won’t pay for any warranty work unless the repair is at a Keystone authorized dealership. I don’t know of any authorized independent repair facilities.

**JRTJH** · 02-10-2022, 06:17 PM

As I understand it, this is a 2019 trailer ???

If so, it was covered by the 1 year factory (Keystone) warranty from date of sale for 12 months. Chances are the "factory warranty" expired in 2020, potentially 2 years ago and, if the trailer was put into service in 2018, then the warranty expired as much as 3 years ago.

Keystone has no "dog in this fight". You bought a USED trailer with no factory warranty, so any recourse you might potentially have is with the selling dealership and any "intended serviceability clauses" that are included in the sales contract you signed. If, as an example, your sales contract says something like, "This sale carries no warranty and no conditional serviceability"... Then, any help from the dealer would be "as a gesture of good will".... On the other hand, if the sales contract says something like, "This trailer is sold with a 30 day, parts and labor warranty covering defective components discovered after delivery" or "This trailer is sold with a parts only 30 day warranty. Seller will be required to pay all labor charges for repair work" or "This trailer is sold with a 30 day "labor only" warranty. All parts must be paid by the purchaser"...

You can pretty much count on not having any warranty on the 31'st day. What does YOUR sales contract stipulate ???

If you approach the dealer with threats of legal action, you may wind up being told that your lawyer can contact their lawyer and they will abide by the settlement as judged by the court. They likely won't touch your trailer until the judge orders them to repair specific parts and you can bet your bottom dollar that they won't touch anything not specifically ordered by the court....

While legal action is, in some situations, a "last chance effort", threatening to talk to a lawyer is, with most RV dealerships, a great way to shut down all effort to get assistance.....

Think it though before saying the "L" word in your conversations with the dealer.

But, bottom line, Keystone had no "warranty responsibility for that trailer" for at least a couple of years before you ever laid eyes on it... They aren't going to get involved in an expired warranty on a used trailer owned by a second or subsequent owner.

**sourdough** · 02-10-2022, 06:43 PM

Agree with the above. Keystone has zero responsibility in this situation on a used trailer. Dealer? Probably. Buyer? Yes. Buying used products requires a GREAT amount of due diligence by the buyer. As was said, if the dealer offered some sort of written, definitive warranty at purchase they might be culpable; if not the buyer will be responsible. There is no telling what happened to that tank in the last 3-4 years.

**chuckster57** · 02-10-2022, 07:06 PM

I totally brain whacked on the year of the trailer. But I will stand by my statement about threatening a lawyer.

Rob1955 · 02-11-2022, 05:52 AM

Yes the only purpose of ths post above, was the shed light on a possible problem, that is not easily spotted by the average joe. Who crawls under a trailer, peels back the insulation to look at plumbing? I happened to notice the valve was sitting at an angle, so did further checking. The hole around said valve had been enlarged, and taped back up.. Not many people would notice such a thing. On the day the wife and I went looking, it was later, wind was blowing hard, bottom line it was feezing cold..
" There are some roads better left untraveled" This was one of them. I paid 20 K on the loan last week, will pay it off and trade it for some other shmuck to purchase.

On another note, I have MS.. was told to get ready for a wheel chair. Getting down on my hands and kness most often requires help getting back to my feet, or something to grab, to pull myself up....I needed to bring a friend.

Rob1955 · 02-11-2022, 06:01 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxzpd-W8UmE

This is a Bish dealership, and apparently this guy does what a real dealership should do on any trade it... look the unti over... before it goes on the lot.. If you head to the BBB, you can read cmplaints. This will be my first stop in the future. I bougth this from Bish.

**sourdough** · 02-11-2022, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob1955

Yes the only purpose of ths post above, was the shed light on a possible problem, that is not easily spotted by the average joe. Who crawls under a trailer, peels back the insulation to look at plumbing? I happened to notice the valve was sitting at an angle, so did further checking. The hole around said valve had been enlarged, and taped back up.. Not many people would notice such a thing. On the day the wife and I went looking, it was later, wind was blowing hard, bottom line it was feezing cold..
" There are some roads better left untraveled" This was one of them. I paid 20 K on the loan last week, will pay it off and trade it for some other shmuck to purchase.

On another note, I have MS.. was told to get ready for a wheel chair. Getting down on my hands and kness most often requires help getting back to my feet, or something to grab, to pull myself up....I needed to bring a friend.

Rob I feel for you and no, most folks would not find that....including the dealer. It is one of those "things" that suck. The previous owner obviously hung that drain, did a hack job repair, tried to cover it up and dumped on someone else. One of the many reasons I don't buy anything used. I don't have MS but it is very difficult for me to get up and down. If I were you my next one would be new instead of used where you will be waiting to see what kind of hack job shows up - and when....again. Good luck.

**chuckster57** · 02-11-2022, 06:09 AM

Why not find an independent repair shop and just replace the tank, if that’s the only issue? It would probably be cheaper than trying to trade in and purchase another possible headache.

Just thinking out loud here, trade ins usually require the customer to certify that there are no known issues, and if the dealership finds the failed fresh tank, may decide to come back on you.

Rob1955 · 02-11-2022, 06:26 AM

I can repair/replace the tank. They aren't that expensive, but labor intensive.. Brother has a large building where he winters his 40 ft trailer.... we're both mechanics, but old ones lol...
This issue really caught me off guard. I figured I drive off into the sunset, with a 3 year old trailer, but it just didn't happen, and right now it's just too cold. Makes me wonder what else I may find? Does a dealership have a standard check list on trade ins? I mean tire tread is easy enough, anything you don't have to crawl around, like a broken fresh water drain, more than likely won't be found. I don't imagine they fill the water lines in winter, how about the A/C?
Always remember this " one is not what one says he is, but what one demonstrates himself to be"
This is a buyer beware post..take your time. I was shopping in the winter, because I knew come spring, it would be much busier.. maybe not wise, wind blowing Temps in the low teens...Like I said somewhere above, I am a certified GF plastic welder.. That's why a valve sticking out at an angle caused suspition, just not before I signed on the dotted line unfortunately

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxzpd-W8UmE

**sourdough** · 02-11-2022, 06:30 AM

Rob you might take this list as something to start with. It's a pre delivery checklist that can be used for new or used RVs.

https://www.angelfire.com/trek/buena...PDI_V113_2.pdf

jasin1 · 02-11-2022, 06:34 AM

The way I look at it is if the dealer fixed the tank while it was still for sale on their lot then they would probably/ definitely have added the price of the repair into the selling price.

If it cost them $2000 to fix it they would just add that into the price.
If it costs you $2000 now then it’s about the same

Did the tank valve leak? Or is it just “not right” ?

As I posted before I was on the understanding that dealers are gonna make sure the rv is safe for inspection purposes only unless they sell it as as is
I don’t believe they have to make sure every other system is perfect unless they state that in the listing or contract.

Buyer beware is as old as time…I would chalk it up to experience…maybe you can go to the dealer and offer to pay for the parts if they do the labor or vice versa

And be prepared for other things to go wrong with your rv because these things are not built to the best standards

And while you state that you drove it home and parked it and therefore could not have been caused by you…the dealer has probably dealt with a hundreds of people that damage something and claim it was like that when they purchased it.

There is always someone trying to get something for nothing. ( as far as the buisness is concerned)

And how is it fair to dump it off on someone else? Unless you disclose it your no better then the dealer your bashing.

I think a person can decide to be as happy or as miserable as they want..I’d fix the tank and move on and be happy ….or get out of rv’s altogether

Good luck

**JRTJH** · 02-11-2022, 06:42 AM

It's a shame that anyone gets treated in a way that makes them suspect some defect was hidden from a potential buyer. But it's not always the dealer's fault that it happens... Just reading the post above: "I paid 20 K on the loan last week, will pay it off and trade it for some other shmuck to purchase." lends much more than "I'm getting rid of my problems"... In reality, people damage cars, trucks or trailers and "forget to tell the dealership what my buddy, a mechanic told me about rebuilding the transmission, etc" every day.

My guess is that with this trailer, if the fresh water dump system was damaged, it may have been a previous owner who backed over a stump or something, damaged the valve, tried to fix it, couldn't, so he took it to a repairman, learned it would cost more than he wanted to spend on a repair, so patched it together and thought: "I'll trade it for some other shmuck to deal with."

So in reality, the previous owner "screwed the dealership AND you" but he "got rid of his problem"....

Although we all would like to "blame the dealer" for everything that they "should have found". Reality is that on a used trailer, the dealer can't disassemble everything to make sure it's in "like new condition"... So, buying a used truck, a used car, a used travel trailer or even a used tire, you "might get a good deal" or you "might get screwed"... The only way you can "sort of protect yourself" is by knowing what's in the sales contract to cover damages or problems that are found within a period of time.... If there's nothing documented, in most states, when you drag it off the lot, you also drag all future problems with it....

Sad lesson to learn when it happens the hard way, but it happens every day. People "trade in their problems for some other schmuk to worry about" and they "forget to mention it to the dealer, so they don't lose any of their trade value"....

I don't know of any "sure fire way" to avoid the potential, whether it's buying new, buying used, buying from a dealer or buying from a private party... Last summer, I helped a neighbor fix his cargo trailer that his son gave him. It was a "free trailer that his son didn't need" and he wound up spending about $800 for a new axle, new wheels and new tires as well as the new pressure treated lumber to replace the "visible rotted decking".... All he'd expected to spend was $100 for some 2 x6's and a can of black spray paint, but it ended up costing him more than a thousand bucks to park it behind his garage...

The only way I know to "break the cycle" is by being above board when you sell or trade the trailer. Rather than "dump it on some schmuk" think about how you feel about discovering some hidden problem that wasn't expected.

Rob1955 · 02-11-2022, 07:07 AM

I suspect they would have given a much lower trade in figure? But they missed it.
Like I said, this is a buyer beware post.

One is not what one says he is, but what one demonstrates himself to be...
Yes, I will look at replacing it myself, not extactly how I wanted to spends my summer. steps to take. remove insullatin and measure the tank, try to find exact fit, replace tank and related paraphanalia, then tackle re-instaling insulation and cover.. No big deal right? apparently it was to the previous owner.
Understanding human nature. Few people go above and beyond...

**JRTJH** · 02-11-2022, 07:36 AM

Many, maybe even most travel trailers have a 1/2" screw in drain fitting, connected to a short stem of PEX tubing with either a valve or a cap to control draining the tank.

You might consider, if the existing tank is otherwise not damaged, just "plastic weld" or use a tank repair kit and "glue" a patch over or in the existing opening, making it a "permanent part of the tank. Then, "spin weld" a new 1/2" threaded fitting into that patch and convert the current "dump valve" to the more common drain tube....

I'd suspect parts to be less than $25 and time would be SIGNIFICANTLY less than the time needed to remove/replace/replumb an otherwise perfectly good tank.....

Here's a photo of the way mine came from the factory and what I did to install an elbow and route the drain to the side of the trailer so I didn't have to crawl under the trailer to reach the valve. It's "slow" since it's a 1/2" PEX drain, but it also doesn't splash my feet when I empty the tank

I'm also attaching a photo of another configuration that I found on the internet that achieves the same result, but with a little different component selection.

It's easy to fix what you have without replacing the entire tank, provided the rest of the tank is not damaged....

**chuckster57** · 02-11-2022, 07:37 AM

Being a 2019, I bet the exact tank is still available. There should be make and model molded into the plastic.

Having replaced numerous tanks, I can say the fresh tank is the easiest.

Rob1955 · 02-11-2022, 08:02 AM

I appreciate your input. I've been looking at some sites that are repairing tanks. Youtube is great.. I'll wait until the weather warms up a bit and then decide what approach to take...
I spent 8 years "roughing it" in a Sioux tipi in the Wind rivers, why should I let this bother me? Well the grizzly bears are thick now where I go, soft sided tents aren't a good idea

**chuckster57** · 02-11-2022, 10:07 AM

JMO, but I wouldn’t try to repair the tank A new tank should have all new fittings spun welded already.

Rob1955 · 02-11-2022, 12:35 PM

I don'gt think a gate valve is he way to go, personally a 1" threaded fitting, with a street elbow pointed out the same side as the low point drains would be fine. How often would I have to drain a full FW tank? I suspect if I cracked the valve at the camp site, the tank would be drained by the time I was on the higway.. No sir, a gate valve isn't sometrhing I would consider for my own build. If you take a good look at the way yoiur tariler is built, you'll always see something that you'd do differently.

**chuckster57** · 02-11-2022, 12:38 PM

To each their own, I haven’t seen but maybe 2 fresh valves broken in what…thousands of RV’s I’ve worked on in 10+ yrs.

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