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Old 10-04-2020, 03:19 PM   #41
flybouy
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Well I guess that's your opinion and you know what they say about that. Just too bad American made products are going the way they are.
On that we agree.
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Old 10-04-2020, 03:20 PM   #42
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What specific "fixes" would you make to improve the RV end product quality? Keep in mind that to remain competitive and not go bankrupt, you have to continue selling each trailer for the same profit margin to maintain your investment portfolio...

How would you "improve quality and not increase price" ?????
I dunno, maybe by not being so greedy and not worrying about quantity and instead quality. That is how I tried to do myself until I retired and it worked pretty good for me.
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Old 10-04-2020, 03:22 PM   #43
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Exactly why I wanted to buy used instead of new. You can blame my better half on that but I think she figured it out though.
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Old 10-04-2020, 04:09 PM   #44
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Just returned from 14 days at West Yellowstone and Island Park, Idaho... my 2014 Alpine worked as expected... perfectly..
HP, AC, and furnace were all used.. all modes worked as advertised
Water heater run in elect mode.. no issues
Dometic 1530 fridge worked fine in LP and AC modes.. temps 34 degrees in fridge
Hyd slides and six point level up worked perfect
TVs, Bose sound system, overhead fan worked perfect
Water pump used on freezing nite at 16 degrees with city water removed
All interior and exterior lites worked fine.. did notice 2 of the small LEDs have burned out on the docking lite strip on the nose... non issue for me
MCD roll up shades worked great.. a little slow to roll up on cool mornings.. we sleep with inside temp at about 58 degrees
Sinks, shower, toilet .. Dometic 320 worked great with after pressure regulated at 55 psi

Suspension had issues, roof and slide roof material A OK

China made Les Schwab Geo Star 14 ply tires on 5th year.. no issues... the coldest. Morning tire pressure read 104 on all 4... great tires... no braking issues

No repairs required during trip..

Cable TV, OTA TV, direct tv sat system worked perfect.. no issues with either Samsung TV..

Converter average DC output voltage steady at 13.4

Post trip inspection to include roof and sealing, suspension system, tires saw no issues other than one small piece of corner moulding at rear of 1 slide “interior” chair rub moulding had popped out a tad in the corner... repaired in about 10 minutes

Gray and black tank drain valves worked as advertised with no leaks... cables routinely lined with PB Blaster.. OEM original valves ...

So after 7 years of use we can’t complain... unit maintained and repair by... me as required

New Airstream pulled in at second location... really nice unit.. 28 foot Flying Cloud... lost his converter sometime during the night... loaned him my 35 year old Sear and Sawbuck battery charger to charge batteries and maintain so he could run his furnace, fridge, water heater, etc....

We TS his converter system down to bad converter... stock OEM WFCO 55 amp unit .. mounted as pcb inside the power center... I’d have thought Airstream would have used a better converter than the 55 amp entry level WFCO...
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Old 10-04-2020, 04:35 PM   #45
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Some people like Airstream. I never cared for them. I don't think the quality is any more prevalent than any of the rest. Just more money. For some to say American recreational vehicles are cheap is plain ludicrous to me. They say you get what you pay for? Really? If 70,000 for an American made rv that the quality is lacking tremendously then I hope mr. Musk has much better luck with his rockets he is producing for space travel. But I guess he is paying more. After all 70,000 is peanuts now days.
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Old 10-05-2020, 04:27 PM   #46
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Agree

I agree as I just bought a 2021 cougar and ask to have the slide covers installed on all the slides. Guess what they could only do 2 of the three and in there as they say that all cougars are engineered to as slide toppers. But dealer Pete’s Rv said he could not install on the dinning room slide the bidets slide. They did say they would send me the money that I put on the bill to my account but now I still have one slide that is not covered. I thought I was buying a really good unit, but both ac units are so load it would keep you awake.
So don’t believe Keystone , as I said on page 5 of the Cougar brochure it is in black and white, so when keystone says take it to dealer I can say dealer can not do it and several other company say the same no ca do the way it is put together. And then there is the WiFi router premiered. You can buy it for $300 but dealer charges $499 to install it, needs to run a power wire. Great prewiring. There is more just nothing is going to change it is like buying the truck to pull don’t believe the sale or the company as all they do is collect your money and give you the headache. I know there is more but it is a waste of time as both dealer or Keystone are not going to do anything about them



Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Martocchio View Post
We recently purchased a 2020 Alpine 3651RL and have had several issues.
1- The pump for the slides and legs had to be replaced.
2- My dealer has been attempting to get a remote for my fireplace from Keystone for 6 months.
3- Had to have the AC serviced because the sensor that keeps the unit from icing up was not attached properly.
4- The gasket on one of the slam doors was not installed properly and water was getting past the gasket.
5- The latest issue is my furnace stopped working(furnace has been removed and is in the shop) for repair.

This is the 5th new unit we have purchased and I have not had this many issues with any trailer. We purchased the unit from Manns RV in Rutland MA and the have been great with making the necessary repairs. I am begining to think that purchasing a Keystone 5th wheel was a mistake.
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Old 10-05-2020, 05:41 PM   #47
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I agree as I just bought a 2021 cougar and ask to have the slide covers installed on all the slides. Guess what they could only do 2 of the three and in there as they say that all cougars are engineered to as slide toppers. But dealer Pete’s Rv said he could not install on the dinning room slide the bidets slide. They did say they would send me the money that I put on the bill to my account but now I still have one slide that is not covered. I thought I was buying a really good unit, but both ac units are so load it would keep you awake.
So don’t believe Keystone , as I said on page 5 of the Cougar brochure it is in black and white, so when keystone says take it to dealer I can say dealer can not do it and several other company say the same no ca do the way it is put together. And then there is the WiFi router premiered. You can buy it for $300 but dealer charges $499 to install it, needs to run a power wire. Great prewiring. There is more just nothing is going to change it is like buying the truck to pull don’t believe the sale or the company as all they do is collect your money and give you the headache. I know there is more but it is a waste of time as both dealer or Keystone are not going to do anything about them

It is paramount that any new RV purchaser understand the RV environment and all that entails. It is incumbent, 100%, on the buyer to look over the RV, check it out, do a thorough PDI and sign off on it before you buy it. If not, the buck stops with the buyer. AC is too loud? Did no one listen to it? Turn it on? That goes with every other component of the RV; it should be perfect but it isn't and won't be. Anyone buying an RV should know that if they did due diligence.

Not trying to knock your comments but when a person chooses to buy an RV there are responsibilities from every involved party; the manufacturer nor the dealer have your best interests at heart, and if you don't, you won't be happy.
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Old 10-05-2020, 06:37 PM   #48
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How would you "improve quality and not increase price" ?????
Probably the same way every other American company does: have them built in China, where you can pay the workers 30¢/hour and have them caned when they screw up.
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Old 10-05-2020, 08:51 PM   #49
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[QUOTE=JRTJH;412366]I hate to say it this way, but every one of your "issues" is a problem with a component built by someone other than Keystone and "installed by Keystone on their trailer"...

While it "shouldn't happen" with components built by other manufacturers, you can "almost guarantee" that Jayco, Forest River, Winnebago, Artic Fox, and nearly every other RV manufacturer uses those same "by name manufacturers" to supply the identical components for their trailer....

There are some issues where Keystone does install a component incorrectly, damage a component during installation, or "lose" an accessory before delivery to the end user, it's also true that salesmen and even "lot lizards" that slam and twist every door, jump on slide floors to see if the trailer is sturdy, urinate in the toilet and yes, even rummage through cupboards and drawers to find something of value....


Yes it is! Keystone is the manufacturer of the TT/RC or whatever. THEY pick the supplier of the component. If there is consistent failure it is their DUTY to intervene and if needed disqualify the supplier. But in todays world too many buyers are happy with the explanation they get from a manufacturer. "It's not us it is the other guy"! That is called passing he Buck. And the reason they get away with it that not enough customers are willing to speak their mind and complain. If you get rotten apples from the supermarket you don't try to find the supplier you go to the market and let them contact their supplier.

Just my 2 cents.

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Old 10-06-2020, 01:05 AM   #50
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As a site team member said on here its just cheap trailers. What more would you expect? Yeah right. I guess the overwhelming majority of trailers built are cheap American made crap now. Maybe like one posted here just have China build them. Then I guess there won't be excuses for cheap American made trailers anymore.
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Old 10-06-2020, 02:25 AM   #51
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You are correct but keystone also had to do what they say the unit will do. If for some reason they put something in the wrong spot and there great QC did not see it They should fix the problem. Dealer just says it won’t fit but keystone says dealer will fix. Well these are keystone parts not other venders for the slide covers which I think should be there but can’t becouse of a Keystone mistake they should find a way to fix the problem and eather they fix or pay dealer to fix. As you say last inspection is owners but no way to know if slide cover will fit before you buy the unit as we did and dealer ordered it but found that it would not fit after receiving and trying to install it. Keystone made the mistake and I am stuck with it . Bad service for a company I though was a great one. We live the unit but not the mistakes in Keystone QC inspection and there mistake is in print. They say they engineered it to except slide covers but they don’t fit is not the answer. There is ways to get them to work but they just leave it to dealer to say no we can not install Too Bad For you we return your money so be happy. Not the answer . Fix the problem .
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Old 10-06-2020, 04:54 AM   #52
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As a site team member said on here its just cheap trailers. What more would you expect? Yeah right. I guess the overwhelming majority of trailers built are cheap American made crap now. Maybe like one posted here just have China build them. Then I guess there won't be excuses for cheap American made trailers anymore.
If your referring to me you are misquoting and misrepresenting the context of my post. My point was, and is, that it's the American consumer that's to blame for demanding (by where they spend their money) lower costs products.

As an example, say Keystone installed a super quiet a/c unit and a high end microwave. Cost increase? $1,000? $2,000? My guess would be that 99% of the prospective buyers wouldn't know the difference and would be clamoring to the next manufacturer that offered "the same thing" (at least in their eyes) for thousands less.
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Old 10-06-2020, 05:52 AM   #53
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You are correct but keystone also had to do what they say the unit will do. If for some reason they put something in the wrong spot and there great QC did not see it They should fix the problem. Dealer just says it won’t fit but keystone says dealer will fix. Well these are keystone parts not other venders for the slide covers which I think should be there but can’t becouse of a Keystone mistake they should find a way to fix the problem and eather they fix or pay dealer to fix. As you say last inspection is owners but no way to know if slide cover will fit before you buy the unit as we did and dealer ordered it but found that it would not fit after receiving and trying to install it. Keystone made the mistake and I am stuck with it . Bad service for a company I though was a great one. We live the unit but not the mistakes in Keystone QC inspection and there mistake is in print. They say they engineered it to except slide covers but they don’t fit is not the answer. There is ways to get them to work but they just leave it to dealer to say no we can not install Too Bad For you we return your money so be happy. Not the answer . Fix the problem .


I don't see what trailer you have so can't speak to anything Keystone said or didn't say about the particular model. I will say this; the awnings are NOT made by Keystone and are installed by the dealer unless they were ordered from the factory. The dealer installs the majority of awnings. Now, when a buyer chooses a particular trailer without awnings it is the buyer's responsibility to 1) request the awning(s), 2) make sure the dealer understands what you want and commits to it and 3) follows up with the dealer and hold them accountable for any promise/agreement they have made. A call to Keystone is a waste of time and they will tell you "talk to the dealer". If anyone on that phone line, unless they are the GM of production of a particular line of trailers (which you won't be talking to), tries to be specific about anything, they do not have a CLUE about anything you may ask....none. A call asking about placement of awnings may as well been to a feed store.

My trailer was on the lot. I was in FL and I chose this trailer (in TX). It did not have awnings (slide toppers). I wanted them installed but I asked about 200 questions prior to agreeing to having them installed, sight unseen. The dealer agreed to install them, the dealer measured them, the dealer ordered them and the dealer installed them...all based on their promises to me and my instructions. If anything went wrong (it did not) they are the ones accountable, not Keystone. Keystone wouldn't have a clue. There is a big reason we keep emphasizing the importance of the dealer.

As far as quality; owners should "do something", not accept it, demand better etc. etc. RVs are what they are. You aren't going to change it. You would need to do a general media blitz to all Americans wishing/hoping/striving for that dreamed of RV and convince them they needed to wait another 5-10 years before they could afford one, or never, because everyone needs to stand up and revolt because we want "perfect" RVs and we don't care if they cost 1/4 million bucks. Well, you know how far that will go and how much success you will have; at least I do.

I've said repeatedly, being an RV owner and enjoying RV ownership is a mindset - you HAVE to have it, or get it. A person can rant and rave about every little thing, everyday and will accomplish exactly 3 things; 1) they are going to be miserable, 2) they will hate their RV and 3) nothing will come of it other than the ulcers they give themselves and the elimination of the great fun they could have had with RV ownership if they had just learned to understand what it is they have gotten into and how to work within those confines (sorry for the long sentence). To say I am/was probably the biggest type A person around would probably be an understatement. My first couple of new trailers I railed against the wind because of failure; I waded through the dealership personnel; I alienated the owner at the time; I harassed Keystone unendingly and.....not a thing changed...not ONE. I felt like a crazed gorilla inside a solid steel cage. I hated the RV, the dealer and Keystone - unfortunately that also translated into my RV ownership and affected our family's ability to enjoy it. It took a while for me to grasp that and, a long time to realize what I was doing and change my mindset - 2 new trailers before I started to understand, and live within, the confines of owning a new RV. It's something one must do to realize the full enjoyment of having one. If that is not what a person wants, and can accept, if it were me I'd sell the RV and buy a boat....
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Old 10-06-2020, 06:55 AM   #54
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Danny has made excellent points regarding the necessary relationship with the dealer. It's essential in getting any resolution to an issue.

I think one of the issues with new to RVing folks is the expectations based on their experiences. Most folks come to the RV market with the experiences of their home (either home owner, renter, or condo owner) and their experiences in vehicle ownership. None of those experiences translate to RV ownership.

Your home sets on a solid foundation. Appliances don't get bounced around, floors and walls don't flex, walls and doors are thick with greater insulating standards. Weight is not an issue, movement is not an issue in the design considerations. "Stomping" on the floor when you walk, kids jumping off the chair to the floor, slamming doors, etc. will greatly accelerate wear and issues in an RV compared to a residential structure.
Your home's interior is typically maintained within a very narrow temperature and humidity range. Typically RVs are not kept in a climate controlled environment so very wide and radical temperature and humidity changes are the norm.

Your "typical" residence has a central heating and cooling system. The mechanical components are usually far away in another area. The a/c compressor and evaporator fan (the noisy parts) are outside and typically far away. The air handler is typically in the basement or garage, again isolated from the living space. These systems in an RV are very close, often a few feet away from your head.

The other issue with experience and expectation is comparing an RV to a car or truck. You purchase a Ford and any Ford dealer will honor the warranty. Not so with RVs. The dealer is not obligated by law or the manufacturer to do warranty work. You need a repair on your truck the dealer will typically get it right in and work on it. Usually they have a shuttle service or a loaner car if the repair goes overnight. Not so in the RV world. Scheduling work is typically weeks out and they having it for weeks is the norm. Travel 500 miles from home? Don't expect a dealership in that area or perhaps in that state.

So this lengthy post is not defending nor condoning the RV industry. The intent is to point out the differences in the industries and what one's experiences may be and the reality of what an RV experience may be.
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Old 10-06-2020, 07:13 AM   #55
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Yes it is! Keystone is the manufacturer of the TT/RC or whatever. THEY pick the supplier of the component. If there is consistent failure it is their DUTY to intervene and if needed disqualify the supplier. But in todays world too many buyers are happy with the explanation they get from a manufacturer. "It's not us it is the other guy"! That is called passing he Buck. And the reason they get away with it that not enough customers are willing to speak their mind and complain. If you get rotten apples from the supermarket you don't try to find the supplier you go to the market and let them contact their supplier.

Just my 2 cents.

Happy camping.
Do you really believe that any product is manufactured with ZERO tolerance for failure?????

Every product has an "acceptable failure rate" and as long as the number of units that fail remains below that rate, it's acceptable... Most manufacturers use a 3-5% acceptable failure rate. In other words, as long as fewer than 3-5 per 100 fail, the manufacturer makes no changes in production. Using that forumla, if 100,000 of any product, let's use Atwood stoves as an example, then 3000-5000 stoves can fail and the manufacturer is "OK" with that result.

Same goes for Dometic refrigerators, Thetford toilets, WFCO converter/chargers, Lippert Kinrow windows, or any other RV product...

It's different for "government monitored/regulated components".. Things like Trailer King tires, Al-Ko axles, brake lights, or other items, must meet specific federal/state specifications to be sold. If they fail in greater numbers than acceptable, they are recalled for "safety concerns"...

There are no "safety concerns" with whether a stove rattles or a piece of molding doesn't fit properly or whether a window leaks or a toilet won't hold water or an air conditioner doesn't cool. Those things are NOT federally monitored/controlled.

Honestly, I'd simply ask: Did you buy a Keystone RV? If you did, then you're part of the reason the manufacturer has NO REASON TO IMPROVE.... As long as you (and me) and others keep standing in line to buy their products, they are going to keep building them as fast as they can with the same quality standards that are making them money "hand over fist during good times".... And, their component manufacturers, as long as their acceptable failure rate is below their acceptable rate and people are buying their products in every RV manufactured, have no incentive to stop making money "hand over fist"...

So, when you and I and others stop buying RV's, the manufacturers of RV's and RV products will have an incentive to do better. Until then, blame yourself (and myself) for the quality standards that we find acceptable....
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Old 10-07-2020, 11:12 AM   #56
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Wow - I feel so encouraged after reading the above! I just bought 2021 cougar 30rls 5er. Wonder what I’ll be saying 12 months from now 🤔 Hope mine was built on Weds!
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Old 10-07-2020, 11:43 AM   #57
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Wow - I feel so encouraged after reading the above! I just bought 2021 cougar 30rls 5er. Wonder what I’ll be saying 12 months from now 🤔 Hope mine was built on Weds!

I would say don't be discouraged; hope for the best and expect the worst. Anyone buying an RV needs to go in eyes wide open but so many don't expecting a utopian experience....and many times it isn't. Just be mindful of the fun, adventure and new experiences the RV will bring to you and your family - sort of a labor of love..
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Old 10-07-2020, 01:43 PM   #58
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Wow - I feel so encouraged after reading the above! I just bought 2021 cougar 30rls 5er. Wonder what I’ll be saying 12 months from now 🤔 Hope mine was built on Weds!

Probably a very high percentage of new owners have few if any serious problems. That is why MOST new owners don't come on this forum and voice quality complaints. Kind of like reading product reviews. Who writes them? Folks who have owned the product for 2 days and are five stars or folks who have owned longer and have failures or service issues with the selling companies. I think the negative reviews of Keystone products are likely made by a small small percentage and some of the complainers have huge issues and some, well, not so much and could probably be very easily rectified. One of the generic RV sites has reviews on many RV model lines and 95 percent are negative as people that have issues with the product they purchased will write the preponderance of reviews.
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Old 10-07-2020, 04:01 PM   #59
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Most people who don't have problems are "busy enjoying their RV" and don't have time to stop to write a glowing review. People who are disgruntled, whose RV is in the shop while they're sitting at home, bored and frustrated, have "nothing but time to tell the world why they dislike their RV"...

Honestly, any review of "product quality" needs to be analyzed by the reader...

I've read far too many that start: "I'LL NEVER BUY ANOTHER KEYSTONE TRAILER" and following that are remarks such as, "they listed my fresh water tank at 60 gallons and it only holds 44 gallons" ... or "the mattress is the worst I've ever slept on"... or "the TV is impossible to see without getting neck strain"... or, "there is no toilet paper rack in the bathrom"... or "the sidewall fell off as we were leaving the dealership on day 1 and Keystone refuses to fix it"...

Of the above, I'll leave you to determine which is "frustration or buyer's remorse" and which is "legitimate"......

So, just because there are 5 reviews and they all are "negative" the reader needs to analyze "what" the negative aspects are about the product... Quite often it's, well.... it's not an issue..... often just a preference .... sometimes complaints don't even rise to that level..... YMMV
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Old 10-07-2020, 05:28 PM   #60
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Most people who don't have problems are "busy enjoying their RV" and don't have time to stop to write a glowing review. People who are disgruntled, whose RV is in the shop while they're sitting at home, bored and frustrated, have "nothing but time to tell the world why they dislike their RV"...
Wrapping up fourth season and trailer has never seen the inside of a shop. Not saying we haven't had issues, just nothing we couldn't deal with ourselves.
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