Unsafe - Under Any Conditions

[Festus2]

I'm probably opening up another can of towing worms but what the heck.....

Let me give you a theoretical example:

Quite often we hear from a member who is in the midst of buying or has already bought a new RV and asks, "Will I be able to tow my new Laredo 301RE or some other TT with my F150 or whatever other truck".

Further on in his post, he goes on to list one or more of the following conditions under which he will be towing his Laredo:
1) We won't be carrying much stuff - a bit of water and minimum supplies -"We'll be travelling light".
2) We will be driving over mainly flat roads, no major hills or climbs. "It's all flat."
3) We won't be going fast. "I'll be driving slowly".
4) We won't be going far. "The campground is only 75 miles away".
5) We only go on holidays 3 times a year. "We won't be on the highways that often".

The thread continues with replies from various members who might say:
1) You are way too heavy. That TT is too much for your TV. Look at a bigger truck.
2) No problem. You'll be just fine. Go camping and enjoy.
3) I've towed my TT all over the US without a problem. "We've got the same setup. You're ok".
4) And then there is my favorite ......."Mmmmm...not sure but I think should be ok if you watch what you take, don't go into the mountains, drive slowly and stay close to home."

I read the post and the replies and ask myself.....
Why would a person buy an RV and a truck and put all these restrictions and limitations on themselves? Why would a person think that if they do, it will make it safer for themselves and for others. Isn't being beyond your payload and towing capacity unsafe under any and all conditions? What difference does it make if you go 30, 300 or 3000 miles? 55 mph or 65 mph? Unsafe is unsafe no matter how you spin it.

I am also wondering if, at times, we sometimes do a member who is close to or over the payload a disservice by telling him that it will be ok for you IF you do this or don't do that. By doing so, all we are doing is reinforcing the misconception that it is safe for him to venture out providing he meets these conditions and stays within the boundaries you have given him or that he has mistakenly set for himself.

Surely, unsafe is unsafe --under any conditions.

[davidjsimons]

I agree 100%. I get laughed at for towing a Cougar 28 RBS with a DRW 3500, but at least I can go wherever with as much gear as I need to and not have a care in the world. I've said it before and I will say it again, you can never have too much truck.


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[therink]

I agree 100%.There was a time however (before I had the benefit of helpful rv community forums such as this) when I used to purchase a trailer based on what I wanted, with no regard to if my truck was capable. I made some poor choices and at times put my family's safety in jeopardy.
For me, there was no way I could ever talk my wife into that nice new truck after we spent our wad on the rv of "my" dreams. Why wife would say "can our truck tow that?", I would say "of course it will". Keep in mind I wasn't even considering what the yellow sticker in the door jamb said. Then a few months later I would say to my DW, "we need a bigger truck". She would then roll her eyes and say "whatever". Now I had her permission to get the truck of my dreams. I went through this process a few times until I finally smartened up and bought the right truck for the load we were towing. I guess it is jusjust a learning curve that many people have to go through.
One thing I try to do is be frank on the forums when people as "can my truck tow this?". I tell them my experiences of white knuckling my way to the campgrounds, the burned out transmissions, over heating engines, etc.

[f6bits]

At the end of your post, you mentioned the scenario of being "close to payload." That's the grey area that some consider to be a black area. Someone can be within limits, but others consider that being over 80% is unsafe.

Or that you *have* to go by the gross weight. I've seen many trailers that have dry weights that vary by 1000 lbs but have the same gross weight. Keystone seems to like various gross weight values, like 7200 lbs. Maybe it's a frame limit. One model has a dry weight of 4800 lbs and another 5500 lbs. The first has a cargo capacity of 2400 lbs and the second only 1700 lbs.

What most seem to agree on is that the numbers at the scale are what matter. Then it's the battle of 80% vs 90% vs Max. 95% if you live in the flatlands is more doable than 90% in crazy hill country.

Regardless, you're responsible for your choice. The hundred per-center keeping it to 60 in the flatlands is much safer than the 80 per-center double-towing at 75MPH.

[Festus2]

Originally Posted by f6bits

At the end of your post, you mentioned the scenario of being "close to payload." That's the grey area that some consider to be a black area.

Regardless, you're responsible for your choice. The hundred per-center keeping it to 60 in the flatlands is much safer than the 80 per-center double-towing at 75MPH.

Scott -
Yes, being close to payload is a tough one to call. I would call it a grey area. Safe or unsafe? There are instances however where there is no doubt that you are over and knowing that and still heading out under restrictions or conditions is unsafe.

My concern was about those who are overloaded and drive slowly thinking that by doing so makes it safe.

[buzzcop63]

Many posts where the trailer owner drives a vehicle that is well over qualified for the trailer that it is towing seems to always have a comment that anything other then their choice of a tow vehicle is unsafe or just not up to the job.

First you match the truck to the trailer. According to "Guide to Towing, Trailer Life 2013" Before purchasing a vehicle, we suggest you acquire the manufacturer's comprehensive towing guide, available online or at dealerships. Be sure to read the fine print because in many cases the maximum rating may apply only to one particular version and be for a fifth-wheel trailer; many larger pickups may have the actual tow rating limited by the hitch hardware."

You do the math and make sure the TV meets the GCWR, GVWR and has the tow capacity for the trailer. You make sure you are using the correct hitch and that TV is set up to safely tow your trailer. Using the Guide to Towing is a great help as is the TV manufacturer and a quality trailer dealer. What also must be considered but never seems to be brought up is cost, percentage of just using vehicle for non-towing duties, future increase in tow weight, and where you will be doing the most towing. Answering these questions will help you find the tow vehicle that fits your needs, budget and future towing requirements.

[Javi]

I think it has to do with rationalizing what one has done or decided to do. There are clear cut limits on these tow vehicles, be it axle load limits, tire load limits or gross weight versus payload, which by the way don't always equal X.

In many of the modern trucks it isn't an issue of power or even stopping capabilities it becomes a dance around towability and stability. For instance I had a 2011 F-150 with the HD tow package which was LT tires, HD radiator and coolers rated to easily carry my Passport 2890RL and yes it towed it easily. Heck I could have done 80+ in 6th on most Texas highways and had no trouble with any of the hills we encounter in central, east and south Texas. And I'm sure it would have not had any real issues going over Loveland Pass at a reasonable speed but it wasn't fun to drive.
I spent a couple of thousand dollars trying to make it tow like a 3/4 ton but that was good money chasing bad decisions.

I tried the "special" hitches and stiffer shocks, heavier sidewalls and other tricks found and recommend on the internet all to no avail. Could I tow the trailer, darn straight, hook up and go but I spent the entire time looking in my rearview mirror waiting of the next 18 wheeler to blow me to the shoulder and always afraid to even take my hands off the wheel least the trailer win to waggle war. It wasn't sway, it was that the trailer was just flat too long for the 145" wheelbase and it wouldn't have mattered if I'd have had a diesel in the motor compartment the truck wasn't meant to tow a 33 foot long 10 foot tall sail behind it. It wasn't safe and I don't care how many folks do it every day, I will continue to express that opinion day in and day out.

[Randy_K]

A lot of people have a TV before they buy a TT. When looking at TT's I never had a salesman tell me I could not tow something I was looking at.

So lets say I bought something that I later learnt might be too much for my TV. Lets also say I spent all my savings and took out a 10 year loan to pay for the TT. Next I ask what I can do to make it as safe as I can , a lot of members just say to " buy a bigger TV". " you can never have too much truck" " tires and air bags don't help " "You will die in a fiery crash and kill others".

Not everyone has the unlimited room in their budget or a bank that will offer more money and payments.

Perhaps some people who mean well need to understand not everyone has the unlimited budget , and are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Randy

[Javi]

Originally Posted by Randy_K

A lot of people have a TV before they buy a TT. When looking at TT's I never had a salesman tell me I could not tow something I was looking at.

So lets say I bought something that I later learnt might be too much for my TV. Lets also say I spent all my savings and took out a 10 year loan to pay for the TT. Next I ask what I can do to make it as safe as I can , a lot of members just say to " buy a bigger TV". " you can never have too much truck" " tires and air bags don't help " "You will die in a fiery crash and kill others".

Not everyone has the unlimited room in their budget or a bank that will offer more money and payments.

Perhaps some people who mean well need to understand not everyone has the unlimited budget , and are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Randy

At one time or another during the past 64 years I've been stuck between more than one rock and hard place. If you are an adult you suck it up and do what it takes to fix the problem. Sometimes that can mean losing a chunk of change on the trade and sometimes in means sitting at home, camping at the local lake for a couple of years, working overtime, giving up sodas or tobacco but you do what you have to. Learn from the experience and don't make the same mistake twice.

And no amount of good intentioned advice telling you it'll be okay if you just load lightly and take it easy is gonna make a bad choice into a good choice.

[labs4life]

Originally Posted by Randy_K

A lot of people have a TV before they buy a TT. When looking at TT's I never had a salesman tell me I could not tow something I was looking at.

So lets say I bought something that I later learnt might be too much for my TV. Lets also say I spent all my savings and took out a 10 year loan to pay for the TT. Next I ask what I can do to make it as safe as I can , a lot of members just say to " buy a bigger TV". " you can never have too much truck" " tires and air bags don't help " "You will die in a fiery crash and kill others".

Not everyone has the unlimited room in their budget or a bank that will offer more money and payments.

Perhaps some people who mean well need to understand not everyone has the unlimited budget , and are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Randy

In this case, a person should have done due diligence on the items before purchase. It is easy to get caught up on what the salesman says, but it is the consumers responsibility to ensure what they are spending their hard earned money on makes sense. People, too often, buy what they want in trailers with no regard to what "their" TV can carry. I still hold the buyer responsible for the wrong decision and will continue to suggest a different TV. They are asking for MY opinion on the matter by posting on this forum! We have the right to give "our opinion" as does everyone else.

[labs4life]

Sorry Javi, didn't see ur post before response

[Festus2]

" A lot of people have a TV before they buy a TT."

Randy - Unfortunately, this often happens and sometimes people go out and buy a TT without ensuring that it is going to be a safe match for the TV. It seems that many come on the forum and look for someone to say, "Yes, you can do it. No problem." Or, they are looking for some kind of confirmation that their poor decision was a good one.

I don't want to appear cold-hearted, but if a person is going to spend their life savings and take out a 10 year loan on an RV, they should make darn sure that what they are doing is sound. I would be asking, "Is this thing that I am spending a ton of money on going to be a good, safe match for the truck?" If you don't know the right answer to that question, then you should ask someone who does BEFORE you take out a huge loan.

Perhaps some people who mean well need to understand not everyone has the unlimited budget , and are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

I fully realize that not everyone is created financially equal and; for some, it is a financial squeeze to buy an RV. That I do understand. If someone chooses to put themselves between a rock and hard place, well that is their choice and they had better be prepared to live with the consequences. But if you choose not to safely match your RV with your TV because you can't afford to do so, that is not a good decision IMO. This, I'm afraid I do not understand.

[f6bits]

Due diligence typically consists of comparing trailer weight to your vehicle's tow capacity.

Not until one's taken the plunge do they learn all about cargo and axle capacities, wheelbase, and real world numbers. My Grand Cherokee was tow rated for my current trailer and it was doable for the most part, but not enjoyable.

[labs4life]

What is the gvw of ur passport? What was the payload of the grand Cherokee?? I would be willing to bet the tongue weight would put over on payload on that vehicle. This could be derived before the purchase of the TT.
Looks like the gvw of the camper is over 7k. That puts tongue weight over 1k....not many smaller suv's have that kind of payload to add with passengers etc.
if he buyer is only looking at DRY weights to determine tow-ability, they should be ashamed of themselves!!

[Festus2]

Originally Posted by labs4life

What is the gvw of ur passport? What was the payload of the grand Cherokee?? I would be willing to bet the tongue weight would put over on payload on that vehicle. This could be derived before the purchase of the TT.
Looks like the gvw of the camper is over 7k. That puts tongue weight over 1k....not many smaller suv's have that kind of payload to add with passengers etc.
if he buyer is only looking at DRY weights to determine tow-ability, they should be ashamed of themselves!!

****************************************

I am assuming that Scott realized that the two were not a good match and upgraded his TV. Good for him.

Unfortunately, many first-time buyers of RV's really don't know much about Dry Weights or any other kinds of weights or payloads. It looks nice so they buy it and go through the learning curve later on. I think it's called impulse buying and many simply do not realize that buying an RV requires a lot of thought, research and education.

[labs4life]

I see that he has changed TVs and good for him. I was just commenting on the fact that he said you could not get real world numbers until after the purchase. Just pointing out it could be realized before purchase.

[MarkS]

There are a couple of problems. One, the specs are hard to understand And the truck manufacturers make it worse. When I bought my truck, I read that it was rated to pull a 16k 5er. I thought "I'll never want a trailer that big". I would love to find the 16K trailer that didn't exceed the specs with other obvious names like GRAWR. Even a 10K trailer pushes the other specs.

Second, the dealers will be quick to say "oh, you can pull anything with that truck".

Finally most people can push the specs and never have a problem. Frankly my rig does push the specs. I routinely drive roads that the truck mags use for head to head tests. I have never felt uncomfortable or unsafe. Uphill or down, cross winds, passing trucks don't give me any trouble.

And I often see smaller trucks pulling bigger trailers.

I think some of our members try to justify their choice in rigs on these pages. "I chose a F450 to pull my 4k trailer and so should you." or "I pull my 14K TH with a F150, no problem."

I think all you can do is answer these types of questions honestly. It's better for people to make informed decisions. Surprises are not good.

[Randy_K]

I think most of us can agree the worst place to get towing advise is the TT or TV salesman. Most shoppers , myself included thought these "professionals" would know what they are doing.

Randy

[Randy_K]

Originally Posted by MarkS

There are a couple of problems. One, the specs are hard to understand And the truck manufacturers make it worse. When I bought my truck, I read that it was rated to pull a 16k 5er. I thought "I'll never want a trailer that big". I would love to find the 16K trailer that didn't exceed the specs with other obvious names like GRAWR. Even a 10K trailer pushes the other specs.

Second, the dealers will be quick to say "oh, you can pull anything with that truck".

Finally most people can push the specs and never have a problem. Frankly my rig does push the specs. I routinely drive roads that the truck mags use for head to head tests. I have never felt uncomfortable or unsafe. Uphill or down, cross winds, passing trucks don't give me any trouble.

And I often see smaller trucks pulling bigger trailers.

I think some of our members try to justify their choice in rigs on these pages. "I chose a F450 to pull my 4k trailer and so should you." or "I pull my 14K TH with a F150, no problem."

I think all you can do is answer these types of questions honestly. It's better for people to make informed decisions. Surprises are not good.

[SAD]

"Safe" is a state of being, or an act...

Plenty of people tow beyond their ratings and are safe...

Plenty of people tow way below their ratings and are UNsafe....

Some of them have accidents. Most of them do not...